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#170208 - 08/28/07 09:00 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

I'm pretty sure that "selection" was more of a "use oriented" choice rather than "style" choice


exactly. If something is not listed in a syllabus, doesn't mean "don't train it". also, every stance/structure in kata does not necessarily have to appear on the syllabus. Doing so seems to fit the definition of stylization over function. "forever doing what your taught vs. figuring stuff out."

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#170209 - 08/28/07 09:03 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I was always taught that stances were ultimately transitional. You derive power from proper mechanics, including footwork, so you are only in a stance long enough to execute the move in that stance. Once you have, you continue to the next move in sequence until your fight is over.

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#170210 - 08/29/07 03:58 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

I wasn't taught from a book, and could care less about what is and isn't 'standardized' Goju. Meibukan Goju (at least when I was training it), had it in it's syllabus and kata. In fact, I still have the printed syllabus from the 70's. In addition, Matayoshi Goju/Kobudo systems study Naihanchi as a supplimentary kata of it's syllabus.




Well, I wasnt trained from a book either nor was I talking about standardized Goju. You mention that it is used in Meibukan, and I believe you for that. But since I know that you will ask for refernces when somebody puts in a oposing idea I thaught I would mention a few.

What I train, is inline with the Goju-ryu curriculum from after WWII, mainly influenced by Eiichi Miyazato. (9 years IOGKF/2 years Yamaguchi-ha/16 years JKF goju-kai). In this curriculum I have never trained a kiba-dachi. Nor was there ever anything mentioned about kiba-dachi in Goju-ryu.
I believe that Meitoku Yagi referred to his kata as how they were teached to him from before WWII (as he trained with Miyagi before the war according to Eiichi Miyazato).





Quote:


If you need a justification and want to research the connection of Miyagi/Goju and Naihanchi, follow the Wu Xiangi / Go Kenki links. Also, have a look at White crane boxing's equivalent of Kiba-dachi (forgot the Chinese name). White crane even has a nahainchi-like form, again forgot the name.




I know Miyagi knew Naifaichin. But then he started with Shorin-ryu. He was also pushed to learn from other styles by Higashiaonna. Furthermore the Naifanchin came from the naha-te tradition but I do not recall Higashiaonna ever teaching it. I do not know about Gokenki teaching Naifanchin. Till now I am only aware that he teached Nepai/Happoren/Hakucho/Okaku/Rokkishu. But it is said he knew a lot of things.
Miyagi does mention naifaichin in his Gaisetsu, so it could be in the curriculum from before WWII but I have never heared of that.
Does Meibukan train it?
To my knowledge, the other sects do not.


Quote:


...perhaps the only reason Kiba dachi isn't included in many standarized Goju systems, is less because of technical reasons, and more about stylization branding.
......
Thats the problem with naming stances and excluding anything not appearing in syllabi - it forces a shape when another might feel more appropriate. Kiba dachi is a fundamental and natural structure..even if it doesn't appear in your Goju kata, I guarentee it will appear in your 2-person work - does that mean you are doing it wrong? that you should always force a shiko dachi (turn your feet out) when throwing someone for instance? of course not. be aware of it and see if thats true.




I mentioned the hachimonji-dachi in refernce to Motobu's naifanchin, because it is stance that is known in the Goju-ryu I train although it is not mentioned in the book.
EVolution of stance from musubi-dachi/heiko-dachi/hachichi-dachi/Hachimonji-dachi/Shiko-dachi.
My idea of kiba-dachi would then be turining the heels outward from shiko-dachi wich to me is not natural, probably because I never trained it.
But I can come also in to the idea of stylization branding, wouldn't be the first thing in that regard.

You also mention that the Goju/Matayoshi kobudo adepts train it? Never knew that. I have never seen it. This does not mean I have never done Naifaichin kata. On occasion under guidance of more knowledgable people I have done the kata. But it was never part of the currcilum of Kobudo. Nor was it ever in my training curriculum or that of other Goju-ryu karateka's that I know. But then my referential area is rather small.

Would be more interested in the Miyagi/Gokenki links you talk about and naifaichin.

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#170211 - 08/29/07 12:09 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
here's some to get you started:
http://www.meibukanmagazine.org/Downloads/MeibukanMagazineno4.pdf
from page 6: Interview with Anthony Mirakian.
In that interview, Mirakian sensei reports Miyagi taught Naihanchi, and in the 1950's it was still being taught by Meitoku Yagi (Mirakian's teacher).

At one time, kata Neipai was also taught by Miyagi. It's not clear why it was no longer included. however, it's still in Shito ryu and some Kobudo systems.

now skip down to page 13 of the same reference...
So where did Miyagi learn these kata? most likely: Ryukyu Toudi Kenkyukai.
cofounders/teachers of the club: Miyagi, Hanashiro, Motobu, Mabuni, Gokenki and Todaiki.
also, It's well known that Gokenki was also good friends and trained with Matayoshi.


all the cofounders/teachers/peers trained Naihanchi but left Miyagi out? unlikely. Miyagi had no knowledge of the use of kiba dachi? unlikely. didn't think it was funamental and left it out of Goju? nope - he taught it to his students as evidenced today by the Yagi and Matayoshi Goju lines.
(btw here's a Matayoshi Goju/kobudo curriculum that lists Naihanchi: http://www.kodokanboston.org/karate_subjects.html)

by the time I started in the 70's, Meibukan didn't list Naihanchi on the formal syllabus, but like white crane kata - it wasn't listed, but it was there....which is why the syllabus still has Kiba-dachi and Sagiashi-dachi - in preparation for further/optional study WITHIN Goju (namely Naihanchi and Hakutsuru).


but all of that need'nt be a reason to include/exclude things that are taught in your system. The decision should be based on function, not on historical reference.

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#170212 - 08/29/07 04:24 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
In that interview Mirakiane aknowledges that naifanchi kata was not part of the Goju-ryu curriculum.
Quote:


Naihanchi was a shorin-ryu kata so it wasn't incorperated into goju-ryu kata. Yagi thaught that Naifanchi was such a good kata that in the 1950ies, we also trained Naifanchi kata.




So it's more a Meibukan thing I guess. Through the in fluence of Jundokan (JKF Goju-kai and IOGKF) Naifanchi was not trained, and kiba-dachi is not part of the fundamental stances nor is it used in any of the goju-kata.

In 1991 I trained for a week with Okinawan masters from shorin-ryu/goju-ryu and uechi-ryu. We trained naifanchin and sanchin. They explained that what sanchin was for goju-uechi, naifanchin was to shorin-ryu. But when chime was involved, we would do sanchin and the shorin people would do naifanchin.

Ryukyu Toudi Kenkyukai was disbandoned in 1929. It is true that several kata would be teached and Naifanchin was part of the curriculum, but at that time, styles did not exist.
Miyagi did not include the Naifanchin kata in the curriculum of Goju-ryu as mister Mirakian explained.

Quote:


now skip down to page 13 of the same reference...
So where did Miyagi learn these kata? most likely: Ryukyu Toudi Kenkyukai.




In 1918 a demonstration of Kururunfa and Tensho was filmed.
According to Morio Higaonna, the club was established in 1926. But according to Hokama Tetsuhiro, the club was established in 1917. Tensho is created with the help of gokeknki but I think the other kata were passed down along the naha-te traditions, from a tradition created in 1828.

Shinpo Matayoshi trained with Gokenki from 1937-1938 and then left for Kawasaki Japan.
When I trained Kobudo, I never had to do Naifanchin, only weapon kata's. I trained in the organization of Kenyu Chinen who is also a shorin-ryu expert. And I trained with Johnny Bernashewicze, a direct student of Shinpo Matayoshi who is also a shotokan expert(among many other things). They never referred to kiba-dachi in the kobudo kata only to shiko-dachi.

The higher level, the hakutsuru kata, is something I never persued although I have done hakucho in some long forgotten moment. In Jundokan or JKF Goju-kai hakutsuru-kata is not part of the curriculum. Yamaguchi has some hakutsuru things but aparently only for insiders.

So my statement regarding kiba-dachi is that it is not used in the Jundokan nor IOGKF nor JKF Goju-kai kata curriculum. As such it is not considered as a fundamental stance. I never had to train it regarding Goju-ryu in 27 years.

Quote:


but all of that need'nt be a reason to include/exclude things that are taught in your system. The decision should be based on function, not on historical reference.




I agree to that and from time to time I train other style kata but I do not consider them whithin Goju-ryu curriculum for that.

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#170213 - 08/29/07 07:52 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

So it's more a Meibukan thing I guess.



well, since Miyagi taught Naihanchi, then it was at one time a 'Miyagi thing'.

As far as I know, it sounds as though teachers and students simply trained with others available and accessable....before the artificial split between shuri/naha styles.

Quote:

Chojun Miyagi: There is an opinion insisting that there are two Ryu or styles in karate, namely, Shorin-Ryu and Shorei-Ryu. I think such an opinion is wrong or false, as there is no evidence at all. However, if we have two styles in karate, we can categorize them by their teaching methods. In one style, they do not even differentiate between Fundamental Kata ( Kata such as Sanchin, Tensho and Naifanchi) and Kaishu Kata ( Kata other than Sanchin, Tensho and Naifanchi). They teach karate unsystematically and unmethodically. In the other style, they differentiate between Fundamental Kata and Kaishu Kata clearly. They teach karate systematically and methodically. My teacher ( Master Kanryo Higaonna) taught me karate in the way of the latter.
http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/1936.html





my personal opinion is that Karate would be better off not making stylistic decisions in place of technical considerations.

Kiba-dachi is a natural and fundamental structure. I was taught it and still train it. If mainstream Goju doesn't have it, I'm not going to lose sleep.

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#170214 - 08/30/07 03:57 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

As far as I know, it sounds as though teachers and students simply trained with others available and accessable....before the artificial split between shuri/naha styles.

my personal opinion is that Karate would be better off not making stylistic decisions in place of technical considerations.




I agree to that from an individual perspective trying to build up your currculum adapted to yourselve. This was how it was done in the past until you had created that curriculum and started to teach.

I no longer have the freedom to explore whatever I want for personal research. I am linked as teacher to a Goju-ryu school so I keep it to the curriculum and explore in that direction. For me it is clear what goju-ryu is and it is linked to the 12 kata as defined by JKF Goju-Kai. This does not mean that JKF Goju-Kai holds the ultimate thruth but I consider that about any other fraction whithin the Goju world. In the end there is more that unites us than there is that divides us.

Before styles were defined and the Japanese wanted clear distinctions, it was very normal to have different executions by different people of the same kata. I liked that time better. The down side is that some would mutulate a kata and claim it is original. The knife cuts at both ends.

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#170215 - 08/30/07 07:34 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
well said.

here's some more speculative links to consider:
Quote:


It is speculated by some that the kata Naihanchi (Naifanchi, Naifanchin, Naihanchin) is derived from a Chinese Tam Tui (Northern Mantis) form called Dai-Po-Chin (Dai-Fan-Chie in Cantonese, and Da-Fan-Che in Mandarin). Some say this means "whirlwind" because of arm movements in it, while other say it means "Big Chariot." There is another similar form in some Mantis styles called Xiao-Fan-Che, or "Little Chariot." They are said to be part of the Chariot (Fan-Che) set from the Shaolin temple. Tradition has it that the "Dafanche" was part of sixteen sequences systemized by Shaolin Monks at the prime of Shaolin history, and that it was later perpetuated into the Northern Mantis style. If Naihanchi is not derived from it, it is at least similar to it. But the similarities in the name and in the form are a little hard to overlook.

One report of how the kata got to Okinawa is through the Chinese master Ason. The story goes that Ason was one of the first Chinese teachers in Kumemura, and built up his style on the base of the original Naihanchi Kata, which apparently he brought from China. His students were Sakiyama, Tomigusuku, Gushi, Nagahama and Tomoyose. But the style ended with Tomigusuku and was not passed on. The report alleges that only the Naihanchi kata was passed on into the Naha te, from where Matsumura and Itosu got it. Some believe that Matsumura was a pupil of Ason, but other reports claim that Ason came to Okinawa too early on for that to be true. Whatever the case, somehow the kata got from Ason to Matsumura, directly, or through other masters. Then again, did Matsumura get it from China, directly from Shaolin? It is not out of the question to suppose that this kata was perpetuated in Shaolin as well as the Mantis style.

Some report that Hohan Soken once said that Naihanchi was the name of a master that brought the original kata to Okinawa, and that he was perhaps a Chinese master. Could this man be the same as Ason? Could Ason have had Naihanchi for a nickname or something?


Some claim that Bushi Matsumura created both Naihanchi Shodan and Nidan, apparently from a pre-existing kata, perhaps the one he recieved through the Naha-te line if that story is true. Some believe either Itosu or Choki Motobu created Naihanchi Sandan. Some say that Itosu created all three of them, and that Matsumura had nothing to do with the first two at all. However, Nabi Matsumura taught Naihanchi Shodan and Nidan, but he never studied under Itosu.

From the claim that Naihanchi came through Naha-te developed the theory that the kata was originally called Naha-chi or Naha-chin, from the place-name Naha.

Another theory for the origin of the word is that the original form of the word was the Chinese word Nai-fan-chi. In Chinese, the particle 'Nai' means "inner" or "inside" and probably refers to pointing the toes inward. 'Fan' means a clawed foot of a certain animal. 'Chi' means the soil or foundation. So the original name, according to this theory, probably meant something to the effect of being rooted to the ground in correct stance.

Another claim is that the character for the word "chin" or "chi" points to the chinese system of "Chin-na" (Qinna) and refers to the techniques of gripping vital points (Tuite).

And still another theory is that Chi or Chin could mean "battle" as it does in the word Sanchin. The word 'Naihan' could refer to the narrow paths through rice fields that resemble squares. Therefore, it could mean "battle in a ricefield." Or if we go back to the possibility that Naihan or Naiha is another form of the word Naha, we get the meaning of "Naha battle."

In light of the existence of the apparent ancestral kata in the Chinese Tam Tui system, all of these other theories on the origin of the name are doubtful, and it is much more than likely that the name originated phonetically from the Chinese Daifanchi.

Funakoshi called Naihanchi by the name Tekki, meaning "Iron Horse", which refers to the stance used in it. "Iron" refers to its strength and stability. "Horse" refers to the fact that it resembles a man riding a horse.

http://www.geocities.com/suiken000/naihan.htm




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