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#170168 - 07/22/05 10:09 PM Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance)
SANCHIN31 Offline
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Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
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Of what or any value do you find in doing this? I know that most karate schools do this in one way or another.
For me I think it instills discipline and stamina/strength,but has little self-defense value.
I prefer to drill the students and myself from various other fighting stances,sanchin for one.
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#170169 - 07/22/05 11:29 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: SANCHIN31]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sanchin,

In the style I practice, you would never practice reverse punches in shiko-dachi or kiba-dachi. That said, I see no problem with people actually doing this when their style encourages it.

The reason we don't do this for reverse punches or jab right cross combos, is that our torso's and hips have to be in the technique...and these stances effectively stop this movement.

If the mechanics or practices of another style dictate that you do these punches in this stance, go for it. This may promote other techniques or capabilities that I am unaware of or are not implied in our style.

Now having said that, I will note we do practice shita-zuki (upper cut punch) from a kiba-achi, since torso and arm relaxzation (thus a centered trunk) and the use of the quadriceps are mandatory in the technique as we perform it.

Also, we would effectively use kiba-dachi and shiko-dachi in defensive techniques that would include punches (but not reverse punches) and unbalancing in order to fell the opponent and use the knee placement of these stances as effective counter techniques to the opponent's backward fall....sort of like the opponent's head falling on an anvil (the knee in these stances is very stable).

Warmest regards,

-B

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#170170 - 07/23/05 12:08 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: butterfly]
kenposan Offline
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Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 633
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
A lot of it has to do with chambering, not so much punching. Victor wrote a good article about it on this site.
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#170171 - 07/23/05 12:47 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: SANCHIN31]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
leg strengthening while learning an alternate way of generating power. My appologies if I don't say anything you don't already know...

how do you generate power while keeping the shoulders and hips straight? if you twist the hips and/or shoulders then that would be a telegraph, right? sometimes if you are in an appropriate position for such an attack, a little trade off of telegraph for power is worth it.
thats one way.
There is another type of hip power generation...it's not the familiar rotational hip power like we'd do for reverse punch. This alternate type of power feels like a wave starting at your hips and peaking at the end of your fist. to an observer, they don't see a wave movement even when looking to the side...it's just how the opposing tension in your muscles perceive your movement. (the muscles involved are mostly buttocks, lower ab, stomach)

This is hard to describe, and I'm still trying to get the hang of it. In slow motion, try exaggurated movement at first:
pull your hips in without rounding your back (ie tighten your butt).
while pushing your hip (actually, hara) toward your rear leg you are using that motion to start a wave that is one ripple. right before your fist gets about 75% extended, you reverse your hip (hara) forward to the starting position...this sudden reversing gives you your kimi at the end of the wave.
exaggurated at first, the goal is to be able to do it without noticable body whipping. If you are arching or rounding your back at any point, you are doing it wrong and it will led to back pain/problems.

back up to natural fighting stance...
Now...combine that forward power generation with proper rotational body mechanics. practice it for a few months/years and there will be a dramatic power difference in your technique. you can apply it to blocks, kicks, punches, etc...get the fundamentals of the body mech. and it's just a matter of time to figure each technique out on a case by case.

so yes, punching the air in shiko dachi is a useful drill. It adds to other principals, or at the very least, good for leg strengthening. IMO.
-Ed

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#170172 - 07/23/05 01:02 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Kintama]
bo-ken Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I agree with Kintama it is a great way to generate power. I like to use it as a teaching aid I can see everyone punching at once.

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#170173 - 07/23/05 08:04 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: SANCHIN31]
Crash Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
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Loc: Ontario, Canada
SANCHIN31, usually my classes start with a quick warm up and then we do single, double and triple punches in kiba-dachi. My sensi says (as you did) that this is obviously not a self defense technique, but rather a way of conditioning, he will say The punching is just a distraction from your legs, he says the main focus of the excercise is to train your stance. And often once we get to triple punches half the class will have risen up to having their legs straight, sensi will say "get those stances down there! your only cheating yourselves".
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#170174 - 07/27/05 01:28 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: SANCHIN31]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
Quote:

Of what or any value do you find in doing this? I know that most karate schools do this in one way or another.
For me I think it instills discipline and stamina/strength,but has little self-defense value.
I prefer to drill the students and myself from various
other fighting stances,sanchin for one.




Shiko dachi(sumo stance)in specific style of okinawan karate is widely used. The shorter version is used to train mobility and generating hip twisting (develop close range power)

Gambatte


Edited by Deltaforce69 (07/27/05 01:29 PM)

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#170175 - 07/27/05 01:30 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Crash]
gojumaster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 46
In my opinion, this is a great lesson that should carry over to nearly all aspects of training...

If you are coordinated enough to walk and chew gum at the same time (move your hands and feet simultaneously), then you should never be doing a drill that involves only the hands OR the feet. If you do, then you're just wasting a training opportunity.

Just to be clear, what you may do with your hands or feet may be related to self-defense, stretching, or strengthening and the lower-body may be simply stretching or strengthening while the upper-body may be practicing practical fighting drills / techniques.

Best Regards,

Russ

Quote:

SANCHIN31, usually my classes start with a quick warm up and then we do single, double and triple punches in kiba-dachi. My sensi says (as you did) that this is obviously not a self defense technique, but rather a way of conditioning, he will say The punching is just a distraction from your legs, he says the main focus of the excercise is to train your stance. And often once we get to triple punches half the class will have risen up to having their legs straight, sensi will say "get those stances down there! your only cheating yourselves".



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#170176 - 07/27/05 09:35 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: gojumaster]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
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Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Alot of punching from horse stance, is as stated, about the stamina and discipline, but horse stance also allows for you to isolate the upper body, and focus entirely on the technique of the punch.

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#170177 - 07/28/05 07:59 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
deadlyartsmaster Offline
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Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 74
Do not troll in this forum!


Edited by SANCHIN31 (07/28/05 08:46 PM)

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#170178 - 07/29/05 12:59 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
WADO Offline
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Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
Karate is all about knees and ankles horse stance trains knees and ankles. There are many reasons for this type of training, first it teaches you to be comfortable with a low center of gravity which is crucial to karate training, many throws in karate use the horse stance, The toes in knees out is designed to break an opponents balance, even if you never use horse stance in a fight it is quicker to train symetrically so you can get by with fewer punches. It trains posture if you can keep your posture straight for 100 punches you can maintain proper posture throughout the motion of many techniques remember posture is important to karate. The pull back itself is not a loading move or chambering move it is designed to force the practitioner to use maxumum hip rotation, in horse stance puch the hips should move very sharply but only a very short distance it teaches a person to accelerate hips very carefully. The pull back is like a thorn used to remove another thorn, it is used to teach the hips once the hips know what to do you no longer need it and you can throw it away, but it is still effective training even for advanced practitioners to emphasize short sharp hip movement.

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#170179 - 07/29/05 06:45 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: deadlyartsmaster]
deadlyartsmaster Offline
Member

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 74
I am not biased. Advising members to punch in the air before a streetfight is plain silly. Get lost.


Edited by SANCHIN31 (07/29/05 07:15 PM)

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#170180 - 07/29/05 08:47 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote by Bushi_no_ki -

Quote:

Alot of punching from horse stance, is as stated, about the stamina and discipline, but horse stance also allows for you to isolate the upper body, and focus entirely on the technique of the punch.




Sorry, I disagree completely. The very fact the you are "isolating" the upper body means you are really not working any functional technique.

If you are not involving the legs, hips and back in your upper body strikes, you are simply doing an excercise similar to punching.

Boxers can throw tremendously powerful punches with very little arm movement, because they are involving the body in it's entirety. All strikes need to involve the entire body as a cohesive unit, and practice that does not do so is of very little value, IMHO. Heavy bag and focus pads, my friends. Air is for breathing!
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#170181 - 07/29/05 11:57 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
You can use a focus pad for punching out of horse stance. We do it all the time Matt. I used to be amazed by the amount of power I could generate just from my arms. Adding body weight to the punch just makes it all the more powerful.

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#170182 - 07/30/05 12:40 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Shouldn't you be training your punches from the stance they're actually going to be used from? The time spent practicing punches in a horse stance (which you will never do in a fight) could used to fine tune your actual delivery mechanism of your punches.

And as for using a horse a stance to increase leg strength in some way, well, there are more modern and effective ways of doing that, even without weights.

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#170183 - 07/30/05 09:25 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: BigRod]
MattJ Offline
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Thanks, BigRod. That was exactly what I was trying to say. Why practice in a manner that is substantially different from the actual application?
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#170184 - 07/30/05 11:47 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: MattJ]
gojumaster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 46
MattJ,

Do you practice any lower-body stretching and/or strengthening exercises? I would imagine you do.

My comment is just that if you are, then why not do something, anything useful with your arms while you do so.

Maybe you're stretching / strenghtening your arms with the same drill, but if not, maybe you could be practicing blocks, strikes, etc.

Best Regards,

Russ

Quote:

Thanks, BigRod. That was exactly what I was trying to say. Why practice in a manner that is substantially different from the actual application?


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Best Regards, Russ Smith http://www.Goju-Ryu.info/

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#170185 - 07/30/05 03:47 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: gojumaster]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
My opinion is that it teaches discipline but also that it is a VERY good teaching aid for teaching beginners. You can clearly see their technique and correct it when in this stance. I think of it as a teaching aid.

And I do believe you are wrong about not using this in a streetfight. This stance provides VERY good stability and power-base for punching. However, you would not stand in the stance punching, stances are transitory. Like leaves in the wind, we change direction and flow with the motion of our body; dropping a stance here and there where they can amplify the power of our body's movement. You don't stop in a stance, chamber and then punch. Drop into the stance for the instant you punch and add the momentum of your current movement into the stance and the punch then move out of the stance in one flowing movement. The stance shouldn't exist for more than a moment, the blink of an eye. If you stand still, you give your opponent the advantage. Rigidness of mind or body can be the end of you.

Obsession with stances is no good, stances are tools or guidelines, not the rule of law. Control stances, don't let stances control you.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (07/30/05 03:50 PM)
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#170186 - 07/31/05 10:02 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Good question, and I don't really have an answer I can form. I guess isolating the upper body in practice once in a while just boosts your ego a little, by showing you how much power you can generate with just half your body. I will say this, I do like to isolate my punching and train proper focus. I have ADHD, and it's really hard to meditate sometimes, so doing something like this seems to help during the harder times.

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#170187 - 07/19/07 11:10 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Does your class practice this? (Punching the air in horse stance)
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 07/19/07 12:00 PM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
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#170188 - 07/19/07 11:36 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
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My AKK school did that practice, but I haven't done it for years. I won't practice that way in the future, either. JMO.
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#170189 - 07/19/07 11:36 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: BrianS]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
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Nope, Nada....ain't gonna do it.

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#170190 - 07/20/07 12:20 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
if proper mechanics are taught as part of the drill, AND if those mechanics are translated to utility- then this drill is just another useful training tool. This drill is about isolating power generation from the spine. you CAN'T get your body weight into these strikes from this position - thats the whole point of the posture for the drill. problem is, if the isolation lesson isn't taught - people just try to generate power with their arms or by bouncing up and down....somehow hoping the vertical energy will magically convert to linear power or something.

if it's just taught as a strengthening device - then it gives no other purpose than that....which other drills can do better towards that goal.

I did at one time, but don't currently train this drill - I can see how it can be useful, as an isolated assist, for the beginning of developing the feel for short-power.

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#170191 - 07/20/07 01:11 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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ACK! Necromancy.

Oh well, Like I said, I do this to help with focus. Other than that, from what I've seen in the last two years, after your first year in MA, it really has no value. As was mentioned before, once a student has the proper technique from the arm, it is best to practice how you will actually punch. Honestly, I probably won't ever use many reverse punches in any actual altercation, preferring roundhouses and jabs. The reverse punch can be powerful, IF you can set it up right, and probably by that time, I've moved in too close and started using more grappling techniques.

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#170192 - 07/20/07 12:21 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
So along with the isolation drills, on each of the three punches, are you supposed to yell: "Ko-Bra-Kai?"


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#170193 - 07/21/07 07:34 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: butterfly]
charlie Offline
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Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 186
Loc: woking, surrey,uk
This particular drill has a very usefull and practical application - the body twist.
the reverse punch can be taking hold or pushing at the shoulders (or certain kyusho jutsu points) in oposite directions causing the opponent to turn and into a neck lock - the horse stance to me sybolises the actual grounding or rooting of yourself in order to drop your body weight and center of gravity and take them backwards to the ground.

so this drill is not all about punching from straddle leg stance (kiba dachi)it has some practical use too - interesting isnt it?

its like one of my earlier karate teachers said - i give you the movements, kata etc and you go and research it and come up with your own interpretations. (pete manning sensei - 6th dan shotokan)

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#170194 - 07/21/07 11:34 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
student_of_life Offline
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yeah, i almost forgot how slow the straight right hand is. wait no its not! making use of straight line theory and beging more connected to the body then swinging punches, its the fastest and most powerfull punching attack a person cna throw. in theory, and only when preformed correctly. if you mess up the snaping action, then it produces less power then a gross motor action.

as we pratice punching in horse stance: we mostly train it to emphasize body vibration as a form of power generation. standing in horse stance punching straight ahead is structally unsound as there is no sound way to project force foward due to both your feet being in line and haveing to "post" behind you to allow for proper flow. so since this is kind of a weak position for punching, we train it to emphasize use of proper body dynamics, no dynamics = no power and a kid of hunch in the shoudlers that means the student is leaning it and over the top to produce what he "thinks" is a strong punch.

another drill i find usefull is from a horse stance, rotating ot the left andright on 45 degree angles and into front stance with a reverse punch, its another drill to teach a different kind of rotational power generation. goes like: punch,punch in horse stance, rotate left 45 degrees reverse punch, rotate right into front stance reverse punch, then back to horse stance.

i guess the idea is that leaning in adds power in your punch, so denying the student the lean isolates his use of body dynamics. which is a focal point of traditional styles. when your older, you won't have your big muscles, all you'll have then is your skill.

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#170195 - 07/21/07 11:49 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: student_of_life]
Chatan1979 Offline
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Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Quote:

yeah, i almost forgot how slow the straight right hand is. wait no its not! making use of straight line theory and beging more connected to the body then swinging punches, its the fastest and most powerfull punching attack a person cna throw. in theory, and only when preformed correctly. if you mess up the snaping action, then it produces less power then a gross motor action.

as we pratice punching in horse stance: we mostly train it to emphasize body vibration as a form of power generation. standing in horse stance punching straight ahead is structally unsound as there is no sound way to project force foward due to both your feet being in line and haveing to "post" behind you to allow for proper flow. so since this is kind of a weak position for punching, we train it to emphasize use of proper body dynamics, no dynamics = no power and a kid of hunch in the shoudlers that means the student is leaning it and over the top to produce what he "thinks" is a strong punch.

another drill i find usefull is from a horse stance, rotating ot the left andright on 45 degree angles and into front stance with a reverse punch, its another drill to teach a different kind of rotational power generation. goes like: punch,punch in horse stance, rotate left 45 degrees reverse punch, rotate right into front stance reverse punch, then back to horse stance.

i guess the idea is that leaning in adds power in your punch, so denying the student the lean isolates his use of body dynamics. which is a focal point of traditional styles. when your older, you won't have your big muscles, all you'll have then is your skill.





We do basically the same drills as you for the same reasons. Another reason Ill have students do this, though, is just to be a little tough on them and make their legs burn a bit. Other than that its for all the same reasons that you stated.
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#170196 - 07/21/07 04:58 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Chatan1979]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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The problem with reverse punch is that it is 90% committed to the punch. That's why alot of AKK techniques get away from using it at the higher levels. It is much easier to set up something powerful using a lead hand back knuckle or jab, and like I said, by the time I've got good positioning for a reverse punch, I'm probably all ready set up for a takedown, which allows me to do something even stronger once I have the attacker on the ground. Reverse punch is good for training proper body mechanics, but I think it is something that one will rarely ever see in a fight.

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#170197 - 07/21/07 07:34 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
student_of_life Offline
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i guess thats the way you train. i would have to disagree thogh. you would set up a reverse punch before you threw it jusk like anything else. the clasical styles make use of a hikite (the arm pulled back to the hip) this withdrawing arm is either left out for defence, thrst into the opponents face as a distraction (the lead hand you talked about) or sed to parry the closest limb and pull on it strongly to off ballance the opponent so that the intended reverse punch hits its mark. right after contact with the reverse punch is made, keep following up, clinch, or what have you

saying that the rear straight is not likely to happen, or land in a real fight is a bold statement. im sure your training reflects this idea though. understand though, that because you can't make it work dosn't mean anyone else can.

as a shotokan stylist, the rear straight is the crux of my existince. i am fully aware that you don't need one to finish a fight, however since i spend a fair ammount of time developing power shots (and learing how to set them up/when to use them at all) i would put my money on it. striking has the potential to end a fight long before a take down and ground and pound.

a poor set up for any technique will get your bell rung. if your little back hand to the face to set up your take down is sloppy, then im gonna try to grab it and pull you into a quickly moving mass of reverse punch.

if AKK guys don't like to use the rear straight, thats fine with me. there is more to fighting then punching.we should be familiar with all of it.
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#170198 - 08/25/07 06:48 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: student_of_life]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Actually, if you look at Long Form 1 (AKK) everything is based upon block and retaliating reverse punch.

Sorry for further necromancy, I just feel I haven't made a lot of sense on the subject. When I say that punching from a flat horse stance is good for technique and isolating the upper body, what I'm referring to is making sure you have proper rotation of the arm in your punch. I'm sure most of us can agree (if not all) that no matter what punch you throw, rotation of your arm is probably one of the most important elements. At the beginning levels, isolating the upper body for that helps make it easier for the new student to throw a proper punch, without regards to the rest of his body.

Funny the way alcohol works on me sometimes.

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#170199 - 08/25/07 09:28 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: SANCHIN31]
Usenthemighty Offline
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I practice the air punching!! Although, it isn't catered to any preticular stance. I mainly do things like 100 jabs, 100 uppercuts, 100 knife hands,and etc for each hand in a random stance. I do heavy bag too but thats for power and fist form with and without gloves of course. I believe just doing it in the kiba-dachi is incomplete.

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#170200 - 08/25/07 10:12 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Usenthemighty]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
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Punching into the air using proper technique is one method of "getting your positions correct" in punching. Whatever stance you choose isn't really that important, but kiba and shiko dachi are old Okinawan favorites.

Some of the oldest aerobics in the world are straddle-stanced punching exercises, and they can be done with classes full of people... where bag work and hitting makiwaras take a piece of equipment for each person.

As a proponent of "proper body mechanics", any exercise like the punching drills is a good opportunity to develop and improve the mechanics of something as basic as punching. There is also something to be said about not getting "hit back" from the reaction forces of the bag or makiwara while training in mechanics.

Shiko dachi is called "old men's kiba dachi", because as you age, it's harder and harder to stretch the hips. (I'm undergoing therapy on mine right now), but the stances themselves are designed to help strengthen and stretch the hips and muscles of the upper thighs and the ankles. As you push down, it causes all kinds of forces in the hip area and rotational forces on the ankles, so they are not only "punching stances", but strengthening exercises. The hip is a complex joint, and takes some special care in stretching and keeping it functional as you age.

I won't pass judgement on "hitting the air", because I think it has value in developing correct body mechanics, and I know for a fact that it has good aerobic characteristics if you do enough of them. I've probably done a couple of million of them over the years, but I've always "felt it in my hips" when I did the drills, so it's obviously another one of those valuable tools that remain hidden in Okinawan karate that never get explained, but doing it makes you better.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#170201 - 08/26/07 04:35 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: wristtwister]
CVV Offline
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Quote:

Shiko dachi is called "old men's kiba dachi", because as you age, it's harder and harder to stretch the hips.




Goju-ryu does not know kiba-dachi. Not for young and not for old. Matayoshi kobudo does not include kiba-dachi
only shiko-dachi.

Is kiba-dachi only used in shorin based styles ??

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#170202 - 08/27/07 10:59 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Usenthemighty Offline
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It is in Shotokan ,but that didn't answer your question.

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#170203 - 08/27/07 11:42 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:


Goju-ryu does not know kiba-dachi. Not for young and not for old. Matayoshi kobudo does not include kiba-dachi
only shiko-dachi.

Is kiba-dachi only used in shorin based styles ??



Thats just false, not to mention rediculous.

kiba-dachi is a natural stance when shoulder and hip throwing. so yes, Goju and most Okinawna systems definitely have it. also appears in some nahate kata depending on interpretation: Saifa, Sepai and Kururunfa - to name a few.

Besides, some styles have no 'stances' at all - so the point is moot.

stances are overated - it's the transition thats important....why aren't the transitions named instead of the stances? because stances make better pictures when posing for a camera, judges or an audience.


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#170204 - 08/27/07 12:09 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Not quite true IMO Ed. Both stances and transitions are important. Stances are like a launching pad. They provide the base. They also, when moderately performed, show the proper distance of feet so you can achieve a balance between stability and mobility. The thing is stances are not static. Stances show how to get into an athletic position and explode. This is the balance in okinawan karate. Stances provide structure and movement provides the relaxed flow. There is also relaxation in stances and structure in movement.

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#170205 - 08/27/07 01:00 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
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Quote:

Quote:


Goju-ryu does not know kiba-dachi. Not for young and not for old. Matayoshi kobudo does not include kiba-dachi
only shiko-dachi.

Is kiba-dachi only used in shorin based styles ??



Thats just false, not to mention rediculous.

kiba-dachi is a natural stance when shoulder and hip throwing. so yes, Goju and most Okinawna systems definitely have it. also appears in some nahate kata depending on interpretation: Saifa, Sepai and Kururunfa - to name a few.

Besides, some styles have no 'stances' at all - so the point is moot.

stances are overated - it's the transition thats important....why aren't the transitions named instead of the stances? because stances make better pictures when posing for a camera, judges or an audience.






Hmm,
Seikichi Toguchi does not mention kiba-dachi in his books. JKF Goju-Kai official book either. Morio Higaonna mentions it in his first book as a shiko-dachi with the heels of both feet turned outwards (hardly a natural stance) but does not mention this stance in any of the kata he describes. (he described all kata in his traditional karatedo volume). Eiichi Miyazato does not use the term kiba-dachi but uses the term shiko-dachi.(he also describes all kata in his book). Motobu Choki mentions his horse riding stance as hachimonji-dachi (wich is more reffered to as naihanchi dachi by others).

I do agree that the power of technique does not come from the stance but from what happens between start and end of a technique, usually with transition from one position into another. And I also agree that the naming of these stances is a more recent thing, something that evolved in the 20th century.

But I was referring in view of Goju-ryu not using the kiba dachi as defined before where shiko-dachi would be defined as a hachichi-dachi but twice as wide, with lowered hips. Hachichi-dachi (8-stance) being the natural stance, shoulder wide, big toe pointing outward (diagonally).
Defined like that, I am not aware of kiba-dachi used in Goju-ryu kata.

But I am sure, that when you let me perform a kata, film it and freeze every frame of the film, somewhere in the transitions from stance to stance you will find something that resembles to your defeintion of kiba-dachi.
What's in a name.

So kiba-dachi is used in all kata. Hmmm. I just convinced myselve of an opposing idea.

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#170206 - 08/28/07 06:21 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

Hmm,
Seikichi Toguchi does not mention kiba-dachi in his books. JKF Goju-Kai official book either. Morio Higaonna mentions it in his first book as a shiko-dachi with the heels of both feet turned outwards (hardly a natural stance) but does not mention this stance in any of the kata he describes. (he described all kata in his traditional karatedo volume). Eiichi Miyazato does not use the term kiba-dachi but uses the term shiko-dachi.(he also describes all kata in his book). Motobu Choki mentions his horse riding stance as hachimonji-dachi (wich is more reffered to as naihanchi dachi by others).




I wasn't taught from a book, and could care less about what is and isn't 'standardized' Goju. Meibukan Goju (at least when I was training it), had it in it's syllabus and kata. In fact, I still have the printed syllabus from the 70's. In addition, Matayoshi Goju/Kobudo systems study Naihanchi as a supplimentary kata of it's syllabus.

If you need a justification and want to research the connection of Miyagi/Goju and Naihanchi, follow the Wu Xiangi / Go Kenki links. Also, have a look at White crane boxing's equivalent of Kiba-dachi (forgot the Chinese name). White crane even has a nahainchi-like form, again forgot the name.

perhaps the only reason Kiba dachi isn't included in many standarized Goju systems, is less because of technical reasons, and more about stylization branding.

Quote:

But I was referring in view of Goju-ryu not using the kiba dachi as defined before where shiko-dachi would be defined as a hachichi-dachi but twice as wide, with lowered hips. Hachichi-dachi (8-stance) being the natural stance, shoulder wide, big toe pointing outward (diagonally).
Defined like that, I am not aware of kiba-dachi used in Goju-ryu kata.




Thats the problem with naming stances and excluding anything not appearing in syllabi - it forces a shape when another might feel more appropriate. Kiba dachi is a fundamental and natural structure..even if it doesn't appear in your Goju kata, I guarentee it will appear in your 2-person work - does that mean you are doing it wrong? that you should always force a shiko dachi (turn your feet out) when throwing someone for instance? of course not. be aware of it and see if thats true.

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#170207 - 08/28/07 08:10 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Well, I was taught kiba-dachi in Isshin Ryu, Shotokan, and Shuri Ryu, if that's any help. Shiko was used very little, and actually sochin dachi is a kind of angled and reversed shiko dachi... so I guess it's a baker's dozen of the stances. Naihanchi and Tekki both were done using kiba dachi, because it's a good stance for sideways movement and solid in that direction, so I'm kind of inclined to agree that it's a "stylist" thing as much as anything. I always liked it because it allowed me to load up for a side kick when moving in the stance, and allowed you to change directions easily by simply stepping forward or backward.

I liked shiko because it was more comfortable and used it as a "45 degree" stance, and it was easy to pivot into a front stance from... so I guess it just depends on what you want to do as to what stance you use. Most of them accommodate whatever you're doing in kata, so I'm pretty sure that "selection" was more of a "use oriented" choice rather than "style" choice, and the "stylist" choices were more based on the use than simply selecting a foot position.

Always remember that karate is a "force transmission" art, so the base is important. Check what it does in that regard, and you'll find the answer. JMHO

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#170208 - 08/28/07 09:00 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

I'm pretty sure that "selection" was more of a "use oriented" choice rather than "style" choice


exactly. If something is not listed in a syllabus, doesn't mean "don't train it". also, every stance/structure in kata does not necessarily have to appear on the syllabus. Doing so seems to fit the definition of stylization over function. "forever doing what your taught vs. figuring stuff out."

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#170209 - 08/28/07 09:03 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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I was always taught that stances were ultimately transitional. You derive power from proper mechanics, including footwork, so you are only in a stance long enough to execute the move in that stance. Once you have, you continue to the next move in sequence until your fight is over.

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#170210 - 08/29/07 03:58 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
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Quote:

I wasn't taught from a book, and could care less about what is and isn't 'standardized' Goju. Meibukan Goju (at least when I was training it), had it in it's syllabus and kata. In fact, I still have the printed syllabus from the 70's. In addition, Matayoshi Goju/Kobudo systems study Naihanchi as a supplimentary kata of it's syllabus.




Well, I wasnt trained from a book either nor was I talking about standardized Goju. You mention that it is used in Meibukan, and I believe you for that. But since I know that you will ask for refernces when somebody puts in a oposing idea I thaught I would mention a few.

What I train, is inline with the Goju-ryu curriculum from after WWII, mainly influenced by Eiichi Miyazato. (9 years IOGKF/2 years Yamaguchi-ha/16 years JKF goju-kai). In this curriculum I have never trained a kiba-dachi. Nor was there ever anything mentioned about kiba-dachi in Goju-ryu.
I believe that Meitoku Yagi referred to his kata as how they were teached to him from before WWII (as he trained with Miyagi before the war according to Eiichi Miyazato).





Quote:


If you need a justification and want to research the connection of Miyagi/Goju and Naihanchi, follow the Wu Xiangi / Go Kenki links. Also, have a look at White crane boxing's equivalent of Kiba-dachi (forgot the Chinese name). White crane even has a nahainchi-like form, again forgot the name.




I know Miyagi knew Naifaichin. But then he started with Shorin-ryu. He was also pushed to learn from other styles by Higashiaonna. Furthermore the Naifanchin came from the naha-te tradition but I do not recall Higashiaonna ever teaching it. I do not know about Gokenki teaching Naifanchin. Till now I am only aware that he teached Nepai/Happoren/Hakucho/Okaku/Rokkishu. But it is said he knew a lot of things.
Miyagi does mention naifaichin in his Gaisetsu, so it could be in the curriculum from before WWII but I have never heared of that.
Does Meibukan train it?
To my knowledge, the other sects do not.


Quote:


...perhaps the only reason Kiba dachi isn't included in many standarized Goju systems, is less because of technical reasons, and more about stylization branding.
......
Thats the problem with naming stances and excluding anything not appearing in syllabi - it forces a shape when another might feel more appropriate. Kiba dachi is a fundamental and natural structure..even if it doesn't appear in your Goju kata, I guarentee it will appear in your 2-person work - does that mean you are doing it wrong? that you should always force a shiko dachi (turn your feet out) when throwing someone for instance? of course not. be aware of it and see if thats true.




I mentioned the hachimonji-dachi in refernce to Motobu's naifanchin, because it is stance that is known in the Goju-ryu I train although it is not mentioned in the book.
EVolution of stance from musubi-dachi/heiko-dachi/hachichi-dachi/Hachimonji-dachi/Shiko-dachi.
My idea of kiba-dachi would then be turining the heels outward from shiko-dachi wich to me is not natural, probably because I never trained it.
But I can come also in to the idea of stylization branding, wouldn't be the first thing in that regard.

You also mention that the Goju/Matayoshi kobudo adepts train it? Never knew that. I have never seen it. This does not mean I have never done Naifaichin kata. On occasion under guidance of more knowledgable people I have done the kata. But it was never part of the currcilum of Kobudo. Nor was it ever in my training curriculum or that of other Goju-ryu karateka's that I know. But then my referential area is rather small.

Would be more interested in the Miyagi/Gokenki links you talk about and naifaichin.

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#170211 - 08/29/07 12:09 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
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here's some to get you started:
http://www.meibukanmagazine.org/Downloads/MeibukanMagazineno4.pdf
from page 6: Interview with Anthony Mirakian.
In that interview, Mirakian sensei reports Miyagi taught Naihanchi, and in the 1950's it was still being taught by Meitoku Yagi (Mirakian's teacher).

At one time, kata Neipai was also taught by Miyagi. It's not clear why it was no longer included. however, it's still in Shito ryu and some Kobudo systems.

now skip down to page 13 of the same reference...
So where did Miyagi learn these kata? most likely: Ryukyu Toudi Kenkyukai.
cofounders/teachers of the club: Miyagi, Hanashiro, Motobu, Mabuni, Gokenki and Todaiki.
also, It's well known that Gokenki was also good friends and trained with Matayoshi.


all the cofounders/teachers/peers trained Naihanchi but left Miyagi out? unlikely. Miyagi had no knowledge of the use of kiba dachi? unlikely. didn't think it was funamental and left it out of Goju? nope - he taught it to his students as evidenced today by the Yagi and Matayoshi Goju lines.
(btw here's a Matayoshi Goju/kobudo curriculum that lists Naihanchi: http://www.kodokanboston.org/karate_subjects.html)

by the time I started in the 70's, Meibukan didn't list Naihanchi on the formal syllabus, but like white crane kata - it wasn't listed, but it was there....which is why the syllabus still has Kiba-dachi and Sagiashi-dachi - in preparation for further/optional study WITHIN Goju (namely Naihanchi and Hakutsuru).


but all of that need'nt be a reason to include/exclude things that are taught in your system. The decision should be based on function, not on historical reference.

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#170212 - 08/29/07 04:24 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
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In that interview Mirakiane aknowledges that naifanchi kata was not part of the Goju-ryu curriculum.
Quote:


Naihanchi was a shorin-ryu kata so it wasn't incorperated into goju-ryu kata. Yagi thaught that Naifanchi was such a good kata that in the 1950ies, we also trained Naifanchi kata.




So it's more a Meibukan thing I guess. Through the in fluence of Jundokan (JKF Goju-kai and IOGKF) Naifanchi was not trained, and kiba-dachi is not part of the fundamental stances nor is it used in any of the goju-kata.

In 1991 I trained for a week with Okinawan masters from shorin-ryu/goju-ryu and uechi-ryu. We trained naifanchin and sanchin. They explained that what sanchin was for goju-uechi, naifanchin was to shorin-ryu. But when chime was involved, we would do sanchin and the shorin people would do naifanchin.

Ryukyu Toudi Kenkyukai was disbandoned in 1929. It is true that several kata would be teached and Naifanchin was part of the curriculum, but at that time, styles did not exist.
Miyagi did not include the Naifanchin kata in the curriculum of Goju-ryu as mister Mirakian explained.

Quote:


now skip down to page 13 of the same reference...
So where did Miyagi learn these kata? most likely: Ryukyu Toudi Kenkyukai.




In 1918 a demonstration of Kururunfa and Tensho was filmed.
According to Morio Higaonna, the club was established in 1926. But according to Hokama Tetsuhiro, the club was established in 1917. Tensho is created with the help of gokeknki but I think the other kata were passed down along the naha-te traditions, from a tradition created in 1828.

Shinpo Matayoshi trained with Gokenki from 1937-1938 and then left for Kawasaki Japan.
When I trained Kobudo, I never had to do Naifanchin, only weapon kata's. I trained in the organization of Kenyu Chinen who is also a shorin-ryu expert. And I trained with Johnny Bernashewicze, a direct student of Shinpo Matayoshi who is also a shotokan expert(among many other things). They never referred to kiba-dachi in the kobudo kata only to shiko-dachi.

The higher level, the hakutsuru kata, is something I never persued although I have done hakucho in some long forgotten moment. In Jundokan or JKF Goju-kai hakutsuru-kata is not part of the curriculum. Yamaguchi has some hakutsuru things but aparently only for insiders.

So my statement regarding kiba-dachi is that it is not used in the Jundokan nor IOGKF nor JKF Goju-kai kata curriculum. As such it is not considered as a fundamental stance. I never had to train it regarding Goju-ryu in 27 years.

Quote:


but all of that need'nt be a reason to include/exclude things that are taught in your system. The decision should be based on function, not on historical reference.




I agree to that and from time to time I train other style kata but I do not consider them whithin Goju-ryu curriculum for that.

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#170213 - 08/29/07 07:52 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

So it's more a Meibukan thing I guess.



well, since Miyagi taught Naihanchi, then it was at one time a 'Miyagi thing'.

As far as I know, it sounds as though teachers and students simply trained with others available and accessable....before the artificial split between shuri/naha styles.

Quote:

Chojun Miyagi: There is an opinion insisting that there are two Ryu or styles in karate, namely, Shorin-Ryu and Shorei-Ryu. I think such an opinion is wrong or false, as there is no evidence at all. However, if we have two styles in karate, we can categorize them by their teaching methods. In one style, they do not even differentiate between Fundamental Kata ( Kata such as Sanchin, Tensho and Naifanchi) and Kaishu Kata ( Kata other than Sanchin, Tensho and Naifanchi). They teach karate unsystematically and unmethodically. In the other style, they differentiate between Fundamental Kata and Kaishu Kata clearly. They teach karate systematically and methodically. My teacher ( Master Kanryo Higaonna) taught me karate in the way of the latter.
http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/1936.html





my personal opinion is that Karate would be better off not making stylistic decisions in place of technical considerations.

Kiba-dachi is a natural and fundamental structure. I was taught it and still train it. If mainstream Goju doesn't have it, I'm not going to lose sleep.

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#170214 - 08/30/07 03:57 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
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Quote:

As far as I know, it sounds as though teachers and students simply trained with others available and accessable....before the artificial split between shuri/naha styles.

my personal opinion is that Karate would be better off not making stylistic decisions in place of technical considerations.




I agree to that from an individual perspective trying to build up your currculum adapted to yourselve. This was how it was done in the past until you had created that curriculum and started to teach.

I no longer have the freedom to explore whatever I want for personal research. I am linked as teacher to a Goju-ryu school so I keep it to the curriculum and explore in that direction. For me it is clear what goju-ryu is and it is linked to the 12 kata as defined by JKF Goju-Kai. This does not mean that JKF Goju-Kai holds the ultimate thruth but I consider that about any other fraction whithin the Goju world. In the end there is more that unites us than there is that divides us.

Before styles were defined and the Japanese wanted clear distinctions, it was very normal to have different executions by different people of the same kata. I liked that time better. The down side is that some would mutulate a kata and claim it is original. The knife cuts at both ends.

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#170215 - 08/30/07 07:34 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
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well said.

here's some more speculative links to consider:
Quote:


It is speculated by some that the kata Naihanchi (Naifanchi, Naifanchin, Naihanchin) is derived from a Chinese Tam Tui (Northern Mantis) form called Dai-Po-Chin (Dai-Fan-Chie in Cantonese, and Da-Fan-Che in Mandarin). Some say this means "whirlwind" because of arm movements in it, while other say it means "Big Chariot." There is another similar form in some Mantis styles called Xiao-Fan-Che, or "Little Chariot." They are said to be part of the Chariot (Fan-Che) set from the Shaolin temple. Tradition has it that the "Dafanche" was part of sixteen sequences systemized by Shaolin Monks at the prime of Shaolin history, and that it was later perpetuated into the Northern Mantis style. If Naihanchi is not derived from it, it is at least similar to it. But the similarities in the name and in the form are a little hard to overlook.

One report of how the kata got to Okinawa is through the Chinese master Ason. The story goes that Ason was one of the first Chinese teachers in Kumemura, and built up his style on the base of the original Naihanchi Kata, which apparently he brought from China. His students were Sakiyama, Tomigusuku, Gushi, Nagahama and Tomoyose. But the style ended with Tomigusuku and was not passed on. The report alleges that only the Naihanchi kata was passed on into the Naha te, from where Matsumura and Itosu got it. Some believe that Matsumura was a pupil of Ason, but other reports claim that Ason came to Okinawa too early on for that to be true. Whatever the case, somehow the kata got from Ason to Matsumura, directly, or through other masters. Then again, did Matsumura get it from China, directly from Shaolin? It is not out of the question to suppose that this kata was perpetuated in Shaolin as well as the Mantis style.

Some report that Hohan Soken once said that Naihanchi was the name of a master that brought the original kata to Okinawa, and that he was perhaps a Chinese master. Could this man be the same as Ason? Could Ason have had Naihanchi for a nickname or something?


Some claim that Bushi Matsumura created both Naihanchi Shodan and Nidan, apparently from a pre-existing kata, perhaps the one he recieved through the Naha-te line if that story is true. Some believe either Itosu or Choki Motobu created Naihanchi Sandan. Some say that Itosu created all three of them, and that Matsumura had nothing to do with the first two at all. However, Nabi Matsumura taught Naihanchi Shodan and Nidan, but he never studied under Itosu.

From the claim that Naihanchi came through Naha-te developed the theory that the kata was originally called Naha-chi or Naha-chin, from the place-name Naha.

Another theory for the origin of the word is that the original form of the word was the Chinese word Nai-fan-chi. In Chinese, the particle 'Nai' means "inner" or "inside" and probably refers to pointing the toes inward. 'Fan' means a clawed foot of a certain animal. 'Chi' means the soil or foundation. So the original name, according to this theory, probably meant something to the effect of being rooted to the ground in correct stance.

Another claim is that the character for the word "chin" or "chi" points to the chinese system of "Chin-na" (Qinna) and refers to the techniques of gripping vital points (Tuite).

And still another theory is that Chi or Chin could mean "battle" as it does in the word Sanchin. The word 'Naihan' could refer to the narrow paths through rice fields that resemble squares. Therefore, it could mean "battle in a ricefield." Or if we go back to the possibility that Naihan or Naiha is another form of the word Naha, we get the meaning of "Naha battle."

In light of the existence of the apparent ancestral kata in the Chinese Tam Tui system, all of these other theories on the origin of the name are doubtful, and it is much more than likely that the name originated phonetically from the Chinese Daifanchi.

Funakoshi called Naihanchi by the name Tekki, meaning "Iron Horse", which refers to the stance used in it. "Iron" refers to its strength and stability. "Horse" refers to the fact that it resembles a man riding a horse.

http://www.geocities.com/suiken000/naihan.htm




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