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#170198 - 08/25/07 06:48 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: student_of_life]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Actually, if you look at Long Form 1 (AKK) everything is based upon block and retaliating reverse punch.

Sorry for further necromancy, I just feel I haven't made a lot of sense on the subject. When I say that punching from a flat horse stance is good for technique and isolating the upper body, what I'm referring to is making sure you have proper rotation of the arm in your punch. I'm sure most of us can agree (if not all) that no matter what punch you throw, rotation of your arm is probably one of the most important elements. At the beginning levels, isolating the upper body for that helps make it easier for the new student to throw a proper punch, without regards to the rest of his body.

Funny the way alcohol works on me sometimes.

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#170199 - 08/25/07 09:28 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: SANCHIN31]
Usenthemighty Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
I practice the air punching!! Although, it isn't catered to any preticular stance. I mainly do things like 100 jabs, 100 uppercuts, 100 knife hands,and etc for each hand in a random stance. I do heavy bag too but thats for power and fist form with and without gloves of course. I believe just doing it in the kiba-dachi is incomplete.

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#170200 - 08/25/07 10:12 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Usenthemighty]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Punching into the air using proper technique is one method of "getting your positions correct" in punching. Whatever stance you choose isn't really that important, but kiba and shiko dachi are old Okinawan favorites.

Some of the oldest aerobics in the world are straddle-stanced punching exercises, and they can be done with classes full of people... where bag work and hitting makiwaras take a piece of equipment for each person.

As a proponent of "proper body mechanics", any exercise like the punching drills is a good opportunity to develop and improve the mechanics of something as basic as punching. There is also something to be said about not getting "hit back" from the reaction forces of the bag or makiwara while training in mechanics.

Shiko dachi is called "old men's kiba dachi", because as you age, it's harder and harder to stretch the hips. (I'm undergoing therapy on mine right now), but the stances themselves are designed to help strengthen and stretch the hips and muscles of the upper thighs and the ankles. As you push down, it causes all kinds of forces in the hip area and rotational forces on the ankles, so they are not only "punching stances", but strengthening exercises. The hip is a complex joint, and takes some special care in stretching and keeping it functional as you age.

I won't pass judgement on "hitting the air", because I think it has value in developing correct body mechanics, and I know for a fact that it has good aerobic characteristics if you do enough of them. I've probably done a couple of million of them over the years, but I've always "felt it in my hips" when I did the drills, so it's obviously another one of those valuable tools that remain hidden in Okinawan karate that never get explained, but doing it makes you better.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#170201 - 08/26/07 04:35 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: wristtwister]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Shiko dachi is called "old men's kiba dachi", because as you age, it's harder and harder to stretch the hips.




Goju-ryu does not know kiba-dachi. Not for young and not for old. Matayoshi kobudo does not include kiba-dachi
only shiko-dachi.

Is kiba-dachi only used in shorin based styles ??

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#170202 - 08/27/07 10:59 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Usenthemighty Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
It is in Shotokan ,but that didn't answer your question.

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#170203 - 08/27/07 11:42 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:


Goju-ryu does not know kiba-dachi. Not for young and not for old. Matayoshi kobudo does not include kiba-dachi
only shiko-dachi.

Is kiba-dachi only used in shorin based styles ??



Thats just false, not to mention rediculous.

kiba-dachi is a natural stance when shoulder and hip throwing. so yes, Goju and most Okinawna systems definitely have it. also appears in some nahate kata depending on interpretation: Saifa, Sepai and Kururunfa - to name a few.

Besides, some styles have no 'stances' at all - so the point is moot.

stances are overated - it's the transition thats important....why aren't the transitions named instead of the stances? because stances make better pictures when posing for a camera, judges or an audience.


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#170204 - 08/27/07 12:09 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Not quite true IMO Ed. Both stances and transitions are important. Stances are like a launching pad. They provide the base. They also, when moderately performed, show the proper distance of feet so you can achieve a balance between stability and mobility. The thing is stances are not static. Stances show how to get into an athletic position and explode. This is the balance in okinawan karate. Stances provide structure and movement provides the relaxed flow. There is also relaxation in stances and structure in movement.

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#170205 - 08/27/07 01:00 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Quote:


Goju-ryu does not know kiba-dachi. Not for young and not for old. Matayoshi kobudo does not include kiba-dachi
only shiko-dachi.

Is kiba-dachi only used in shorin based styles ??



Thats just false, not to mention rediculous.

kiba-dachi is a natural stance when shoulder and hip throwing. so yes, Goju and most Okinawna systems definitely have it. also appears in some nahate kata depending on interpretation: Saifa, Sepai and Kururunfa - to name a few.

Besides, some styles have no 'stances' at all - so the point is moot.

stances are overated - it's the transition thats important....why aren't the transitions named instead of the stances? because stances make better pictures when posing for a camera, judges or an audience.






Hmm,
Seikichi Toguchi does not mention kiba-dachi in his books. JKF Goju-Kai official book either. Morio Higaonna mentions it in his first book as a shiko-dachi with the heels of both feet turned outwards (hardly a natural stance) but does not mention this stance in any of the kata he describes. (he described all kata in his traditional karatedo volume). Eiichi Miyazato does not use the term kiba-dachi but uses the term shiko-dachi.(he also describes all kata in his book). Motobu Choki mentions his horse riding stance as hachimonji-dachi (wich is more reffered to as naihanchi dachi by others).

I do agree that the power of technique does not come from the stance but from what happens between start and end of a technique, usually with transition from one position into another. And I also agree that the naming of these stances is a more recent thing, something that evolved in the 20th century.

But I was referring in view of Goju-ryu not using the kiba dachi as defined before where shiko-dachi would be defined as a hachichi-dachi but twice as wide, with lowered hips. Hachichi-dachi (8-stance) being the natural stance, shoulder wide, big toe pointing outward (diagonally).
Defined like that, I am not aware of kiba-dachi used in Goju-ryu kata.

But I am sure, that when you let me perform a kata, film it and freeze every frame of the film, somewhere in the transitions from stance to stance you will find something that resembles to your defeintion of kiba-dachi.
What's in a name.

So kiba-dachi is used in all kata. Hmmm. I just convinced myselve of an opposing idea.

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#170206 - 08/28/07 06:21 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Hmm,
Seikichi Toguchi does not mention kiba-dachi in his books. JKF Goju-Kai official book either. Morio Higaonna mentions it in his first book as a shiko-dachi with the heels of both feet turned outwards (hardly a natural stance) but does not mention this stance in any of the kata he describes. (he described all kata in his traditional karatedo volume). Eiichi Miyazato does not use the term kiba-dachi but uses the term shiko-dachi.(he also describes all kata in his book). Motobu Choki mentions his horse riding stance as hachimonji-dachi (wich is more reffered to as naihanchi dachi by others).




I wasn't taught from a book, and could care less about what is and isn't 'standardized' Goju. Meibukan Goju (at least when I was training it), had it in it's syllabus and kata. In fact, I still have the printed syllabus from the 70's. In addition, Matayoshi Goju/Kobudo systems study Naihanchi as a supplimentary kata of it's syllabus.

If you need a justification and want to research the connection of Miyagi/Goju and Naihanchi, follow the Wu Xiangi / Go Kenki links. Also, have a look at White crane boxing's equivalent of Kiba-dachi (forgot the Chinese name). White crane even has a nahainchi-like form, again forgot the name.

perhaps the only reason Kiba dachi isn't included in many standarized Goju systems, is less because of technical reasons, and more about stylization branding.

Quote:

But I was referring in view of Goju-ryu not using the kiba dachi as defined before where shiko-dachi would be defined as a hachichi-dachi but twice as wide, with lowered hips. Hachichi-dachi (8-stance) being the natural stance, shoulder wide, big toe pointing outward (diagonally).
Defined like that, I am not aware of kiba-dachi used in Goju-ryu kata.




Thats the problem with naming stances and excluding anything not appearing in syllabi - it forces a shape when another might feel more appropriate. Kiba dachi is a fundamental and natural structure..even if it doesn't appear in your Goju kata, I guarentee it will appear in your 2-person work - does that mean you are doing it wrong? that you should always force a shiko dachi (turn your feet out) when throwing someone for instance? of course not. be aware of it and see if thats true.

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#170207 - 08/28/07 08:10 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Well, I was taught kiba-dachi in Isshin Ryu, Shotokan, and Shuri Ryu, if that's any help. Shiko was used very little, and actually sochin dachi is a kind of angled and reversed shiko dachi... so I guess it's a baker's dozen of the stances. Naihanchi and Tekki both were done using kiba dachi, because it's a good stance for sideways movement and solid in that direction, so I'm kind of inclined to agree that it's a "stylist" thing as much as anything. I always liked it because it allowed me to load up for a side kick when moving in the stance, and allowed you to change directions easily by simply stepping forward or backward.

I liked shiko because it was more comfortable and used it as a "45 degree" stance, and it was easy to pivot into a front stance from... so I guess it just depends on what you want to do as to what stance you use. Most of them accommodate whatever you're doing in kata, so I'm pretty sure that "selection" was more of a "use oriented" choice rather than "style" choice, and the "stylist" choices were more based on the use than simply selecting a foot position.

Always remember that karate is a "force transmission" art, so the base is important. Check what it does in that regard, and you'll find the answer. JMHO

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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