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#170188 - 07/19/07 11:36 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
My AKK school did that practice, but I haven't done it for years. I won't practice that way in the future, either. JMO.
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#170189 - 07/19/07 11:36 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: BrianS]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Nope, Nada....ain't gonna do it.

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#170190 - 07/20/07 12:20 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
if proper mechanics are taught as part of the drill, AND if those mechanics are translated to utility- then this drill is just another useful training tool. This drill is about isolating power generation from the spine. you CAN'T get your body weight into these strikes from this position - thats the whole point of the posture for the drill. problem is, if the isolation lesson isn't taught - people just try to generate power with their arms or by bouncing up and down....somehow hoping the vertical energy will magically convert to linear power or something.

if it's just taught as a strengthening device - then it gives no other purpose than that....which other drills can do better towards that goal.

I did at one time, but don't currently train this drill - I can see how it can be useful, as an isolated assist, for the beginning of developing the feel for short-power.

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#170191 - 07/20/07 01:11 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
ACK! Necromancy.

Oh well, Like I said, I do this to help with focus. Other than that, from what I've seen in the last two years, after your first year in MA, it really has no value. As was mentioned before, once a student has the proper technique from the arm, it is best to practice how you will actually punch. Honestly, I probably won't ever use many reverse punches in any actual altercation, preferring roundhouses and jabs. The reverse punch can be powerful, IF you can set it up right, and probably by that time, I've moved in too close and started using more grappling techniques.

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#170192 - 07/20/07 12:21 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
So along with the isolation drills, on each of the three punches, are you supposed to yell: "Ko-Bra-Kai?"


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#170193 - 07/21/07 07:34 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: butterfly]
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 184
Loc: woking, surrey,uk
This particular drill has a very usefull and practical application - the body twist.
the reverse punch can be taking hold or pushing at the shoulders (or certain kyusho jutsu points) in oposite directions causing the opponent to turn and into a neck lock - the horse stance to me sybolises the actual grounding or rooting of yourself in order to drop your body weight and center of gravity and take them backwards to the ground.

so this drill is not all about punching from straddle leg stance (kiba dachi)it has some practical use too - interesting isnt it?

its like one of my earlier karate teachers said - i give you the movements, kata etc and you go and research it and come up with your own interpretations. (pete manning sensei - 6th dan shotokan)

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#170194 - 07/21/07 11:34 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
yeah, i almost forgot how slow the straight right hand is. wait no its not! making use of straight line theory and beging more connected to the body then swinging punches, its the fastest and most powerfull punching attack a person cna throw. in theory, and only when preformed correctly. if you mess up the snaping action, then it produces less power then a gross motor action.

as we pratice punching in horse stance: we mostly train it to emphasize body vibration as a form of power generation. standing in horse stance punching straight ahead is structally unsound as there is no sound way to project force foward due to both your feet being in line and haveing to "post" behind you to allow for proper flow. so since this is kind of a weak position for punching, we train it to emphasize use of proper body dynamics, no dynamics = no power and a kid of hunch in the shoudlers that means the student is leaning it and over the top to produce what he "thinks" is a strong punch.

another drill i find usefull is from a horse stance, rotating ot the left andright on 45 degree angles and into front stance with a reverse punch, its another drill to teach a different kind of rotational power generation. goes like: punch,punch in horse stance, rotate left 45 degrees reverse punch, rotate right into front stance reverse punch, then back to horse stance.

i guess the idea is that leaning in adds power in your punch, so denying the student the lean isolates his use of body dynamics. which is a focal point of traditional styles. when your older, you won't have your big muscles, all you'll have then is your skill.

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#170195 - 07/21/07 11:49 AM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: student_of_life]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Quote:

yeah, i almost forgot how slow the straight right hand is. wait no its not! making use of straight line theory and beging more connected to the body then swinging punches, its the fastest and most powerfull punching attack a person cna throw. in theory, and only when preformed correctly. if you mess up the snaping action, then it produces less power then a gross motor action.

as we pratice punching in horse stance: we mostly train it to emphasize body vibration as a form of power generation. standing in horse stance punching straight ahead is structally unsound as there is no sound way to project force foward due to both your feet being in line and haveing to "post" behind you to allow for proper flow. so since this is kind of a weak position for punching, we train it to emphasize use of proper body dynamics, no dynamics = no power and a kid of hunch in the shoudlers that means the student is leaning it and over the top to produce what he "thinks" is a strong punch.

another drill i find usefull is from a horse stance, rotating ot the left andright on 45 degree angles and into front stance with a reverse punch, its another drill to teach a different kind of rotational power generation. goes like: punch,punch in horse stance, rotate left 45 degrees reverse punch, rotate right into front stance reverse punch, then back to horse stance.

i guess the idea is that leaning in adds power in your punch, so denying the student the lean isolates his use of body dynamics. which is a focal point of traditional styles. when your older, you won't have your big muscles, all you'll have then is your skill.





We do basically the same drills as you for the same reasons. Another reason Ill have students do this, though, is just to be a little tough on them and make their legs burn a bit. Other than that its for all the same reasons that you stated.
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#170196 - 07/21/07 04:58 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Chatan1979]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
The problem with reverse punch is that it is 90% committed to the punch. That's why alot of AKK techniques get away from using it at the higher levels. It is much easier to set up something powerful using a lead hand back knuckle or jab, and like I said, by the time I've got good positioning for a reverse punch, I'm probably all ready set up for a takedown, which allows me to do something even stronger once I have the attacker on the ground. Reverse punch is good for training proper body mechanics, but I think it is something that one will rarely ever see in a fight.

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#170197 - 07/21/07 07:34 PM Re: Punch the air in shiko-dachi (horse stance) [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i guess thats the way you train. i would have to disagree thogh. you would set up a reverse punch before you threw it jusk like anything else. the clasical styles make use of a hikite (the arm pulled back to the hip) this withdrawing arm is either left out for defence, thrst into the opponents face as a distraction (the lead hand you talked about) or sed to parry the closest limb and pull on it strongly to off ballance the opponent so that the intended reverse punch hits its mark. right after contact with the reverse punch is made, keep following up, clinch, or what have you

saying that the rear straight is not likely to happen, or land in a real fight is a bold statement. im sure your training reflects this idea though. understand though, that because you can't make it work dosn't mean anyone else can.

as a shotokan stylist, the rear straight is the crux of my existince. i am fully aware that you don't need one to finish a fight, however since i spend a fair ammount of time developing power shots (and learing how to set them up/when to use them at all) i would put my money on it. striking has the potential to end a fight long before a take down and ground and pound.

a poor set up for any technique will get your bell rung. if your little back hand to the face to set up your take down is sloppy, then im gonna try to grab it and pull you into a quickly moving mass of reverse punch.

if AKK guys don't like to use the rear straight, thats fine with me. there is more to fighting then punching.we should be familiar with all of it.
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