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#169921 - 07/22/05 08:29 AM knife vs gun or baton
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
I have heard that if a perp pulls a knife with the blade coming up, between index and thumb, cops are trained to pull their billystick, and if the blade is coming down, out the bottom of the fist, the pinky finger, you are supposed to draw your gun. Can anyone varify or negate this. I'm sure it is different for various agencies and locations.
_________________________
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#169922 - 07/22/05 11:40 AM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: fattts14]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
The trained response to any blade being drawn, regardless of grip, is to:

Draw

Seek hard cover if possibel or practical and...

Challenge and/ or shoot to stop.

I know of no agency that differentiates or prioritizes one grip over another. Although some officers might elect to use a baton based on their own training, experience and confidence, the baton is clearly much lower on the force continuum than what would be considered reasonable in most conceivable circumstances.

A nine year old with a knife that does not advance and only menaces from a distance maybe. Even then, someone should be prepared to use deadly force via firearm, if only as a contingency.
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#169923 - 07/22/05 04:30 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: fattts14]
ziggytkd Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 90
Loc: KY USA
I think Col. Rex Applegate said it best, "I someone pulls a knife on you, he's asking for it. So give it to him, preferably one bullet at a time."

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#169924 - 07/23/05 01:29 AM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: fattts14]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
I think you should do some more research here. I have never heard anything like this in my life. I respect you trying to learn and ask questions but this one is out of left field, check your sources.

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#169925 - 07/23/05 06:57 AM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: fattts14]
devinw Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 66
Loc: Utah
I would throw my support behind Fletch's words of wisdom. I would just add viewing of "Surviving Edged Weapons" is highy recommended. I have a video tape made in 1988
that was put out by Calibre Press.

It was made for L.E and covers areas like profiles and tactics of offenders who use them, "pre-attack body-language," what does and does not work in the way of defense ect.

I am not sure if they are still selling it or not. You can contact them from the toll free number 800.323.0037 and see if they are still selling the tape?

Take care,
Devin

Interesting reading
The Cutting Edge of Edged Weapons Defense- by George Demetriou (NYC Police Officer) Knife Training: Law Enforcement's Right-Originally published in the Fall 1997 Massachusetts Sentinel

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#169926 - 07/23/05 01:16 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: devinw]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Devin, I concur with you on the video, Surviving Edged Weapons put out by Calibre Press. This is the best I've seen, I'm sure there are other good ones out there.

In a book by Mike Echanis (deceased, rip) dealing with unarmed defense against the knife there is a portion in there that says no matter how small the knife attacker is and know matter how large or well trained the unarmed defender is the knife attacker has the advantage. I concur. The only reason to even try to defend against a knife without a weapon is because of the closeness of the attacker and the surprise of the attack. Otherwise, move away, and engage cover, utilize deadly force or makeshift weapons but don't fight unarmed against the knife. The "billy club" does not trump a knife.

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#169927 - 07/23/05 02:18 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: Intrepidinv1]
devinw Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 66
Loc: Utah
Great points and well taken Intrepidinv1 !

The book you are refering I think is Mike Echanis's "Knife Self-Defense For Combat"published in Burbank, CA: by Ohara Publications in 1977.He does clearly state that the one with the blade has the advantage over the well trained man.

Humbly,
Devin Willis

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#169928 - 07/23/05 02:45 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: Intrepidinv1]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Agreed.

No one should feel obligated to go empty hand against a blade if their are other options. Sometimes though, it happens too fast, too close and there is no time or room to use other options.
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#169929 - 07/23/05 04:12 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: Fletch1]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Double agree.

Fletch, in your opinion what are the best options when "it happens to fast, to close and there is not time or room to use other options."

I do recall some of the sweeping type defenses shown in "Surviving Edged Weapons."

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#169930 - 07/23/05 04:18 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: devinw]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Devin,

Obviously you're familiar with this book. I used to do some work out of it but it's been back there in the library for awhile now. How do you feel about some of his unarmed defenses presented in the book?

I recall one wherein you side step as you parry a down type attack and redirect the knife into the attacker. I practiced that one a few time and it felt pretty good. Some of the others are a little more difficult.

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#169931 - 07/23/05 05:32 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: Intrepidinv1]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
I would not try to make too many suggestions over the internet about such a topic. The best material I have seen is available on video though.

Check out the STAB (Survival Tactics Against Blade) program from Karl Tanswell. www.karltanswell.com

and...

Red Zone developed by Jerry Wetzel. www.centerlinegym.com

Both of these systems compliment one another and are functional and provable under non choreographed, full contact training conditions.

The counter knife tactics I teach with our program is heavily influenced by these systems.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#169932 - 07/24/05 02:20 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: Fletch1]
Dingo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/19/05
Posts: 9
If I have the choice, I'll draw my pistol on a person holding a knife.

Like has been said before, you don't always have time to make that choice though. Luckily I've never been in that situation.

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#169933 - 07/24/05 03:44 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: Dingo]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
From a personal standpoint as a security officer, I wear slash resistant gloves to minimise injury if caught up in a bladed encounter- it would (in theory) give me a little leeway to grab/trap the knife itself as oposed to worrying about getting past it to the controlling arm.

My father was in L.E. for close to 30 years, and has always said if a fellon uses his open hands, use your baton, if they have any weapon, be it oppertunistic or premeditated, Draw your sidearm to either take controll through coersion and to ensure their compliance , or if need be to shoot the SOB and remove the threat.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#169934 - 07/24/05 04:08 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: Cord]
ziggytkd Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 90
Loc: KY USA
I like your dad's philosophy cord.

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#169935 - 07/24/05 07:34 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: ziggytkd]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I've had the opportunity to know a few LE personally, and train on the FATS II with the local PD when checking into the Explorers program here. I most certainly agree with the rule of using a firearm against a knife. They had severaly scenarios involving a knife wielder, and in all of them, only one variable scenario had the guy drop the knife. Being prepared to use lethal force is necessary, regardless of how a person holds their knife.

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#169936 - 08/18/05 07:45 AM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: fattts14]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
Richard Beaupit teaches what he calls two on one. Which means two hands on the on knife hand. I found it works quite well in sparring.

If you really wanna test your knife defence have your friend come at you full out with a small stick or other substitue. As if it was a knife. Then just keep practicing.

Perhaps an even better drill would be to have two friends approach you, one will pull a hidden knife and attack. Simulating a more street like incident.
_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#169937 - 08/18/05 05:58 PM Re: knife vs gun or baton [Re: otobeawanker]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
try using a large marker or permenant pen and then count the number of lines left. if its permenant the lines will serve as bit of a reminder as well for the next few days.
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