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#169167 - 04/21/06 11:12 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Specifically, I'm looking for a correlation between such hand formations and internal energy cultivation.




Think of it as 'Zhang Zhuang' involving only the hands / fingers.
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#169168 - 04/22/06 01:59 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks BP... I have Liang Shou-Yu's book and so far that is the only reference I have found that has this, albeit, with very little surface level detail.

In Zhan Zhuang, one trains with holding contradictory forces in 6 directions, engaging the kua, the spine and the dantien, amongst other things.

How does hand formations relate to this?

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#169169 - 04/22/06 04:09 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Thanks BP... I have Liang Shou-Yu's book and so far that is the only reference I have found that has this, albeit, with very little surface level detail.

In Zhan Zhuang, one trains with holding contradictory forces in 6 directions, engaging the kua, the spine and the dantien, amongst other things.

How does hand formations relate to this?




You have eight fingers and two thumbs (I haven't met you personally, I just assume ) to permute with and so the possibilities for focusing of energy, when there are weaved symmetrically or asymmetrically, are immense. Like Zhan Zhuang, it is just another convenient means for the mind to focus and internalise itself back into the body; a physical, 'always-at-hand' aid for meditation. Just like basket weaving, the important end product is the whole basket and not the individual strands, which is why there are so many kinds/ways of finger weaving, depending on the tradition and whether it is for health, energy-gathering or spiritual enlightenment.

Whole-body Zhan Zhuang is macro and normally done standing; mudras are micros and therefore usually done sitted.

How dose it develop internal energy? The same way that Zhan Zhuang does. How does Zhan Zhuang develop internal energy?
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#169170 - 04/22/06 10:07 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ah.... that makes a lot more sense now... thanks.

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#169171 - 04/23/06 09:30 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
This subject has always been shrouded in mystery because of its use for religious purposes. It must be remembered that historically, in the old civilisations of India, China, Japan, Tibet, there were no real division between subjects that we now call science (in the sense of the study of physical phenomena)and religion, as all physical phenomena have or were the workings of divine attributes or agencies.

So the "mudras" and the energetic effects their practices produced were seen as the conscious chanelling of divine presence(s)and the claim by some to have "visions" only serves to reinforce this. So it was something you do not teach just anybody. Even Jesus Christ was thought to have some "secret" teachings He taught to only certain desciples.

But now seen in more secular terms and accepting that the whole universe is but a closed energetic system, the mudras are a kind of antenna to harness the ambient energy and in certain context, have talismanic qualities. This occurs at the "microcosmic" when mudras are done at the individual human level.

At the home level, the intuitive placing of a potted plant, art work, sculpture etc. is a form of 'mudraic' energy chanelling.

At the town, city, national level, the mudras are the huge monuments placed at strategic locations, the mosques with the minarets, the churches with the high spires. Imagine the enhancement of the ambient cosmic energy when hundreds, thousands of people, worshipers congregating and single-mindedly focusing their attention on one object or place.


Edited by ButterflyPalm (04/23/06 10:05 AM)
_________________________
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#169172 - 04/23/06 07:30 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Reminds me of a childhood game we used to play with finger knitting - this is the church, this is the steeple, and these are the people inside...

Having read a few books on the subject of feng shui, I can comprehend what you mean.

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#169173 - 05/04/06 11:37 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

I'm not too concerned about the mudras themselves. I'm not so sure these things are "spontaneous" as harlan suggests. Hand mudras are specifically taught as part of the esoterica of kundalini yoga, shingon buddhism, as a means of cultivating spiritual energy for the specific purposes of enlightenment.

When I see the founder of Aikido in various qigong "meditation postures", chanting the kotodama (mantras) etc. etc., I begin to wonder.... granted some of this comes directly from Shingon via Omoto-kyo (which is supposedly Shinto-based).

But what I'm actually curious about is how this knowledge is common in yoga, buddhism (and buddhist qigong), as well as ninpo. What's the link?




I know what you mean. My sensei has alluded to using those in the Yoshinkan headquarters but he doesn't really teach it especially since he said they would have to site like taht for more than an hour and our class is only 2 hours lol. I might ask him about them though, he only showed us one mudra as an exmaple of a common position, basically all the fingers are interlocked inwards except the indexes which touch each other at the tip and are pointing up.


I just recorded a Discover Channel thing on Samurai and part of it showed some kenjustu school and for a quick 3 second clip showed the hand of a guy doing mudras but it was only in the middle of his thing (don't know what to call mudra practice) and I only caught about 3 mudras, I will post them up here once I get my video stuff working.

But anyone who has trained in any of the Aikido headquarters (yoshinkan, aikikai, etc doesn't matter) know of mudras?

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#169174 - 05/04/06 11:45 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
O crap lol

I just did a quick google search

This page has the EXACT routine I saw on the kenjutsu dojo doing:

http://www.dragonsofjustice.org/formation/

The fourth one is the one that Ueshiba does most often


Edited by SpeedyGonzales (05/04/06 11:45 PM)

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#169175 - 05/04/06 11:48 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
http://mobilemouse.co.nz/ninjutsu/kujiin.html

Well actually this website has the one I saw the kenjutsu guys doing, this is it.

The one I posted in teh last post was closer to the ones Ueshiba did.

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#169176 - 05/05/06 12:18 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Best website so far:
http://www.dragonsofjustice.org/basic/kujiInBasics.html



Okay that is what Ueshiba is mostly seen doing, it was labeled as "healing" on that website
[image]http://www.dragonsofjustice.org/formation/KI-Sha1.jpg[/image]

This is teh sequence I saw a kenjutsu guy on the Discover Channel do:

[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_rin.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_kyo.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_toh.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_sha.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_kai.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_jin.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_retsu.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_zai.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_zen.jpg[/image]

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