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#169137 - 07/20/05 05:43 AM kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm throwing this question out here partly due to the fact that there is no ninjutsu forum and also partly because it is somewhat related to energy cultivation (via tantric yoga/buddhist qigong).

I'm doing some research on the hand mudra(s) that the founder of Aikido can be seen doing here:
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/pageimages/osensei_22.gif

So that we all have a common base from which to continue, I'm using this article here as a basis for discussion:
http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/mudra.html

I'm interested to hear how others use these hand mudras for energy cultivation and if there are similarities (and differences) across the board.

Thanks.

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#169138 - 07/20/05 08:58 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I don't think your going to find many if any here who use kuji in of any kind, at least none who actually know what they are talking about. You might find the random ninja wanabe here claiming to use them but i have yet to see anyone discuss them that have any real knowledge of them. The furyu article you linked pretty much says it all in reference to their use in the martial arts. They really aren't even taught in the legit modern ninjutsu systems anymore with the exception of maybe the Genbukan and To Shin Do.
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#169139 - 07/20/05 09:04 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: laf7773]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
If one is coming from a tantric/esoteric perspective...mudras are spontaneous.

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#169140 - 07/20/05 09:44 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
What's your take on it Lane?

Spontaneous? How?

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#169141 - 07/20/05 03:52 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
LastGURU Offline
The one who knows
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Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Riga, Latvia
I have put some time recently in researching this topic in the Internet and in some books (so everybody are free to not believe me - this is not a kind of stuff I have seen with my own eyes, let alone received any training on), so I just wanted to write this as a small addition to the article.

There are three mudra (hand seal) systems I have read about:

1. kuji-in (nine-symbol seals) is a set of 9 mudras (it is said that there are totally 81 seals, but only 9 were chosen as kuji-in) which, as far as I understand, deal with energy channeling, associating fingers with different organs and energies. There is also a concept of tenth symbol in kuji-in, which is to be thought of by the practitioner himself to combine the effect of all kuji-in seals. Kuji-doshin-ho is an application of Kuji-in, which adds mantras (Rin-Pyo-To-Sha-Kai-Jin-Retsu-Zai-Zen) to the seals, to form techniques of protection using nine syllables.

2. kuji-kiri (nine-symbol cuts) is a complex technnique involving mudras, mantras and possibly mandalas, but there is not much known about this. The stuff available online is mostly either false or oversimplification, and does not reveil the complexity of kuji-kiri. It seems that this is a truly secret technique and is likely to be known only by the ninjutsu Grandmasters themselves

3. Ketsu-in (probably translated as "seals of excellence") is a not-widely-known set of 5 mudras (of them I have only seen 4 in one book, and still have not found any pictures online) which deal with elementals, associationg one of Earth, Water, Fire, Wind and Void to each of the fingers respectively (starting with the small finger).
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#169142 - 07/20/05 08:49 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: LastGURU]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm not too concerned about the mudras themselves. I'm not so sure these things are "spontaneous" as harlan suggests. Hand mudras are specifically taught as part of the esoterica of kundalini yoga, shingon buddhism, as a means of cultivating spiritual energy for the specific purposes of enlightenment.

When I see the founder of Aikido in various qigong "meditation postures", chanting the kotodama (mantras) etc. etc., I begin to wonder.... granted some of this comes directly from Shingon via Omoto-kyo (which is supposedly Shinto-based).

But what I'm actually curious about is how this knowledge is common in yoga, buddhism (and buddhist qigong), as well as ninpo. What's the link?


Edited by eyrie (07/20/05 09:07 PM)

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#169143 - 07/21/05 09:40 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
They are spontaneous...if you experience spontaneous jhana/kundalini. Everything else, is like reading someone else's story. Kind of like which came first: the chicken or the egg. I am sure that many systems include them, either with intent to manipulate energy, or more like vestigial cultural remnants (like you see in karate katas).

Apologies if I step on any toes. I don't know anything about 'institutionalized' mudras, and am speaking from an 'experiential' viewpoint.

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#169144 - 07/21/05 09:06 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi harlan, I understand what you are saying. However, this raises a number of issues for me:
1. How is knowledge transmitted other than through experiential subjectivity?
2. If such knowledge can only be experienced, how is it that this knowledge appears in a number of different and seemingly unrelated systems? This tells me that someone must have taught or shown someone how to.
3. How is this knowledge preserved if it can only be transmitted through direct experience?

What you're saying is a valid point, but I don't want to sidetrack this discussion, as I'm specifically interested in the use of mudras with the specific intent of manipulating energy (for whatever purpose), and how this is taught within various systems that do (or profess to) use them for such purposes.

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#169145 - 07/21/05 09:50 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: LastGURU]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
We know that sounds affect energy at some level. The knowledge is common in a number of systems - mantras, kotodama, etc.

However, knowledge of hand mudras, specifically those ones used for cultivating/channeling energy through the chakras, as opposed to the vestigial remnants of energetic "postures", as harlan suggests, is not common knowledge.

My suspicion is that these seemingly "spontaneous" hand and finger positions do more than simply act as a focal point for channelling energy. The very specific finger positionings and even down to which hand over which hand, I'm sure, somehow "connects" the energy in different ways, and with different internal results.

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#169146 - 07/22/05 02:27 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
The mudras them self are not spontaneous in the true sense of the word. Just like with any for of energy cultivation technique they are fairly specific. Arbitrary chants and hand positions will don't little of nothing for you in terms of energy cultivation. If there are any “spontaneous” mudras it is due to the individuals deeper understanding of how to open the chakras or make the proper connections to promote energy flow. You also have to look at the focus of intent behind these mudras. Simply mimicking the hand symbols and chants will also do nothing for you with out intent.

The point of this only being learned or passed through experience is partial true as well. With qigong, kuji in, yoga or any other "system" of energy cultivation/channeling/focusing anyone can be taught the postures or hand/finger positions with ease. What must be experienced is the results you get from the "proper" application of these postures/positions. These results can't and shouldn't be explained to you, as they are generally what gauge your progression to the next set or the next piece of the puzzle. This is the main reason people MUST have an experienced individual to guide them. Someone who hasn't experienced these things can never teach you the proper way to perform them, as they don't know what results to look for. You need someone with experience to sift through your over active imagination and what is actual progress.

--------------------------------------------------------

It's late, i've had a long day and the wife just came home ranting about the neighbor kids. Sorry but i lost my train of thought for the moment. I'll try and pick up where i left off tomorrow.
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