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#169147 - 07/23/05 09:32 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: laf7773]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
That much is already obvious. The issue is how does one progress to the next level without being shown these things or told what one should be looking for?

It is naive to think that the teacher will show/tell you how to get to the next level in due course. One could waste years of valuable training barking up the wrong tree, even under "expert" supervision. It is also in my experience, that senior teachers within the art, do not seem to have specific knowledge of these aspects. Even if they do have specific knowledge, it is not something that they would readily share, despite the fact that these things are easily demonstrable. In many cases, they simply wave it off as "rubbish", akin to the pseudo-religious "nonsense" and "mumbo-jumbo" spouted by the Founder, which many in the art do not believe in.

Irregardless, my interest at this stage is purely research, specifically the similarities of specific finger and hand positioning, and the internal exercises between systems that appear to share this knowledge. I'm not particularly interested in how this is done, since I already have an idea of the connections via corroboration with TCM principles.

My hypothesis at this stage, is that the Founder was privy to very specific qigong knowledge via various Buddhist classics (some sources suggesting that this knowledge was widely recorded in the kojiki).

One of my unanswered questions at this stage is how ninjutsu came to possess this knowledge as well, and what is the source of that knowledge. I was hoping that someone who does ninjutsu could enlighten me. Specifically, what is the historical connection (if any) between the kuji-in as practiced by certain ninjutsu-ryu and tantric-yoga? Or was this knowledge handed down via Buddhist influences and how (i.e. thru whom)?

My knowledge of ninjutsu's historical development and roots is somewhat vague (since most of it seems to be clouded in myth and mystery - for obvious reasons). I'm just trying to sort out the facts from the myth.

If that makes it clearer?

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#169148 - 07/23/05 08:21 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It appears this knowledge is not so secret after all.

Quote:

Posted by:Silatyogi (@martial arts planet)
there are many similarities in Silat to Hindu arts and also Tibetan Tantra. The postures, breathing, concentrian methods, the mental states or emotions etc.

I showed once Bon Po Tibetan Lama a Serak Djuru and his eyes got big and said that those are secret Mudras (hand postures) in Tibet! History shows us that the, hindus and Buddhist once occupied Indonesia. Most of the names in silat have sanskrit Hindu roots.





BTW, I meant corroboration with reflexolgy.


Edited by eyrie (07/23/05 08:28 PM)

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#169149 - 07/31/05 05:55 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
evileddie13 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 2
I used to practice ninjitsu, well taijitsu actually. Whitch is the same thing really. I trained under Kurt Rittenhouse, who trained under Stephen K. Hayes, who trained under the Matsakkit Hatsumi, Soke. Granted I haven't trained in awhile.
But I am going to share some of what I was taught in the meditation area. We were taught ,finger weaving, if you will
for the 5 elements. The meditations were guided. We were also taught to have a soft focus, basic med. stuff. When it came to Kuji-in, it never really was discussed. We were basically told not to worry about. I only made it to Go Don so I am not sure if it was going to be introduced later in training. I do know Rittenhouse was knowledgable about it because he did share one thing I was told not repeat. It was just a meditation, not trying to get all CIA or anything.
The attitude in the dojo concerning weird mind powers and the like, was that it was normal and a part of training.
Remember, the 5th Degree BB test is to have the Soke swing a sword at the back of your head. Also, I did see Jack Hoban in a seminar knock out several PPL with slight slap to the chest. The 'victims' if you will said it felt like an eletrical shock.
In trying to answer the above question, we were told finger weaving came out of India and moved west, ending up in Japan. It was the Shinobi who actually made them combat effective, if you will.
During that time in my life I was really into Western Magick and Wicca. And you will be suprised about how many similar they are, in basic theory. Like, the Grind in Kuji-Kiri is like the Lesser banishing Ritual of the Pentagram. Read 11 lessons of the High Magickal Arts by Donald Kraig and you will get it.
As for trying to learn how to meditat with the finger weaving, your better off learning just how to meditate period. Or, finding a good teacher who will teach you GOOD taijitsu. No point in trying to master space and time with RETSU if you can't move out the way of a punch in the first place.

http://shell.world-net.co.nz/~jimgould/kujiin.html

The above is a site I just found. I was impressed, was pretty straight forward.
In finish, I am just starting to learn how to meditate and its really hard. This is coming from a guy who used to practice 45min ritual with all the fury of a good pagan.
so, if anyone is intrested I can show them how to use finger weaving where it concerns the 5 elements. Give the basics and let you go from there. I take NO responsibity for what happens and will give you some basic warnings.
As my spelling, I am sorry but I blame Google. Oh, and i think i get Kuri-kiri mixed up with Kujin-in. My bad.

Jonathan


Edited by Reiki (04/20/06 03:56 PM)

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#169150 - 07/31/05 09:17 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: evileddie13]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks Jonathan (evileddie13)

Quote:


As for trying to learn how to meditat with the finger weaving, your better off learning just how to meditate period. Or, finding a good teacher who will teach you GOOD taijitsu. No point in trying to master space and time with RETSU if you can't move out the way of a punch in the first place.





It's a tad presumptious to think that, don't you think.

Quote:


I do know Rittenhouse was knowledgable about it because he did share one thing I was told not repeat. It was just a meditation, not trying to get all CIA or anything.





Hey, I know lots of "secrets" too, but I'd have to kill you if I told you, so don't go telling nobody I told you this. OK?

Quote:


we were told finger weaving came out of India and moved west, ending up in Japan. It was the Shinobi who actually made them combat effective,





Close, but not close enough. Try Shingon Mikkyo...

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#169151 - 08/01/05 02:52 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
evileddie13 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 2
first mistake, he asked me not to repeat it so I won't. As for the reason I don't know, I just repspected him enough not to say anything for what, 12 years now.

Presumptious? Come on I just stating the obvious because you quote:

"I was hoping that someone who does ninjutsu could enlighten me. Specifically, what is the historical connection (if any) between the kuji-in as practiced by certain ninjutsu-ryu and tantric-yoga? Or was this knowledge handed down via Buddhist influences and how (i.e. thru whom)?"

Your an armchair theorist. Researching Kuji-in, for what reason? So you know where it came from? Its not who made the gun, its weather you can shootn it or not.

I have no doubt that you are more knowledgeable of the specifics of the history concerning Kujin-in or whatever.
But don't ask a question from a practioner former or otherwise, then brow beat him for his answer.

You sound like a wannabe and I would bet if you were in the same room with someone who actually practiced, trained in, lived and breathed ninjitsu, you would [censored] your pants. Come to Dayton Oh, we got three Dojos in spitting distance, bujikan that is. Internet threats and challenges are childish

http://www.daytonbujinkan.com/



Long story short, this would be what? mistake number 4?.


Jonathan


Edited by laf7773 (08/01/05 03:34 AM)

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#169152 - 08/01/05 03:30 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: evileddie13]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
This is your first and only warning. You post anything like this again and you are gone. Period. If you have anything else to say on the matter direct it to MrVigerous. Any other inflammatory posts from you will be deleted on site.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#169153 - 08/01/05 03:39 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: evileddie13]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hmmm.... touched a raw nerve somewhere?

When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

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#169154 - 08/01/05 03:48 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Eyrie,
I can't say how practices like the kuji-in were passed down but i can tell you they are not the sole property of ninjutsu or any other martial art for that matter. They are practiced independently or in conjunction with various arts. The kuji-in are not a martial art technique but more a tool used by martial artists who saw the potential in their use. They can be likened to qigong in a small way. Very few arts support or promote the practice of this such as kuji-in even within ninjutsu circles. I can only think that they are passed on in the same manner qigong would be. Iím sure you already knew this though.

I've had little exposure to them personally and honestly have little desire to. You may want to hit up kutaki or the ninpo/ninjutsu section at ebudo. Now that i think about it the genbukan forums may be a better idea as they lean more toward the ninpo side of the house than the others do and may be more inclined to practice and discuss them.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#169155 - 08/01/05 04:08 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: laf7773]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks Lane, this is sort of information I'm looking for, or if not then at least a pointer to where I can find the information.

We all know this stuff is hardly secret. We know that thru cross-cultural fertilization and trade, this knowledge was shared at some point across a large part of Asia. We know that some of this knowledge is highly esoteric in nature and hence not readily available. We know there are similarities between practices which utilize (or claim to utilize) this knowledge, specifically for the purposes of cultivating "qi" and harnessing its use for spiritual enlightenment. We also know that specific areas of this knowledge was used to enhance "qi" cultivation for martial purposes.

Just trying to do some research.... and I just don't have the time nor patience for the mystical secrecy BS and half truths, when it is clearly "public" knowledge in a few select circles.

Thanks once again.

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#169156 - 08/29/05 02:35 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
yourownsluth Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 9
Hi Everyone, I have been reading some of your posts for a while on this and other forums. I have enjoyed your conversations. I would like to offer some insight on the finger signs. I was fortunate to train with someone who I met at a security seminar. This guy has a vey diverse background - I've been around the block a few times but nothing ever came close to this guy. He has a wierd and very applicable style. One day I asked him what some symbols he had on the wall were and he avoided the question for some time finally telling me it was mudra. I probed him for the meaning of this and tried to find out what it was for , but he changed the subject. After about a year of on and off training for security measures, I asked why he never answered my question. He said it was for his students only. These rituals are very closely guarded. This guy is very traditional. It takes a lot to get any info from him. I hounded him for a few months just to get a training session and then months after that I was still begging for some tech. He is all about loyalty. I finally developed a good relationship and was allowed to see some really affective tech. which have helped me many times in my line of work and I would say have actually saved my life a few times.
please don't post ridicule as I am posting this with the best intentions. The mudra are in Nines. He explained that most everything is in nine or 3. In numerology the 9 is a significant number. the number of man i think. The post with the 10th one being special is on track with what he told me. It seems that each mudra is consistent with a chakra and there is a specific idiogram that you trace with a certain finger sign. over time the medidtation on these points is to develop your internal power. They are somehow tied to accupuncture points. I have felt some weird things while training with him. He can hit you in the arm and it feels like your belly moves to your ribs. Tiny little nothing strikes seem like a sledge hammer. I researched it and never found anything close to what he showed me. It seems the most known is bujinkan and steve hayes. My friend brought up a point I think is valid. He stated that the old ways were not to be let out and learned by us. It is his belief that many of the so called old ways were a smoke screen for the round eye. He studies Tai Chi with an old guy who lived at the temple in China. He tells me of a story of how the village was invaded and the new rulers wanted to know the secrets of thier fighting. It's just a myth with a point, but it goes that the invaders were taught to crawl on the ground like babies. They practiced this and went backa and trained thier own. When they fought again, they fell to the ground and crawled and were killed. This is what he says has happened to most arts. the old secrets are almost all but gone. I asked a few times for more info, but he keeps telling me that I am not a student or "disciple" and wouldn't tolerate the training.
Now the other side is he didn't show me anything that I could remember. He once quickly showed me the 9 hand positions and traced a couple things in the air. He told me these things were held in a sacred way and only for "disciples". I was grateful for the info but it makes no sense.
Sorry I couldn't help out more but maybe you can get an answer from this guy. You can email him at THEDEADLYPUZZLE@NETZERO.COM. hope that helps a bit.

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