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#169137 - 07/20/05 05:43 AM kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm throwing this question out here partly due to the fact that there is no ninjutsu forum and also partly because it is somewhat related to energy cultivation (via tantric yoga/buddhist qigong).

I'm doing some research on the hand mudra(s) that the founder of Aikido can be seen doing here:
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/pageimages/osensei_22.gif

So that we all have a common base from which to continue, I'm using this article here as a basis for discussion:
http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/mudra.html

I'm interested to hear how others use these hand mudras for energy cultivation and if there are similarities (and differences) across the board.

Thanks.

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#169138 - 07/20/05 08:58 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
laf7773 Offline
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Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I don't think your going to find many if any here who use kuji in of any kind, at least none who actually know what they are talking about. You might find the random ninja wanabe here claiming to use them but i have yet to see anyone discuss them that have any real knowledge of them. The furyu article you linked pretty much says it all in reference to their use in the martial arts. They really aren't even taught in the legit modern ninjutsu systems anymore with the exception of maybe the Genbukan and To Shin Do.
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#169139 - 07/20/05 09:04 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: laf7773]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
If one is coming from a tantric/esoteric perspective...mudras are spontaneous.

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#169140 - 07/20/05 09:44 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
What's your take on it Lane?

Spontaneous? How?

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#169141 - 07/20/05 03:52 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
LastGURU Offline
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Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Riga, Latvia
I have put some time recently in researching this topic in the Internet and in some books (so everybody are free to not believe me - this is not a kind of stuff I have seen with my own eyes, let alone received any training on), so I just wanted to write this as a small addition to the article.

There are three mudra (hand seal) systems I have read about:

1. kuji-in (nine-symbol seals) is a set of 9 mudras (it is said that there are totally 81 seals, but only 9 were chosen as kuji-in) which, as far as I understand, deal with energy channeling, associating fingers with different organs and energies. There is also a concept of tenth symbol in kuji-in, which is to be thought of by the practitioner himself to combine the effect of all kuji-in seals. Kuji-doshin-ho is an application of Kuji-in, which adds mantras (Rin-Pyo-To-Sha-Kai-Jin-Retsu-Zai-Zen) to the seals, to form techniques of protection using nine syllables.

2. kuji-kiri (nine-symbol cuts) is a complex technnique involving mudras, mantras and possibly mandalas, but there is not much known about this. The stuff available online is mostly either false or oversimplification, and does not reveil the complexity of kuji-kiri. It seems that this is a truly secret technique and is likely to be known only by the ninjutsu Grandmasters themselves

3. Ketsu-in (probably translated as "seals of excellence") is a not-widely-known set of 5 mudras (of them I have only seen 4 in one book, and still have not found any pictures online) which deal with elementals, associationg one of Earth, Water, Fire, Wind and Void to each of the fingers respectively (starting with the small finger).
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#169142 - 07/20/05 08:49 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: LastGURU]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm not too concerned about the mudras themselves. I'm not so sure these things are "spontaneous" as harlan suggests. Hand mudras are specifically taught as part of the esoterica of kundalini yoga, shingon buddhism, as a means of cultivating spiritual energy for the specific purposes of enlightenment.

When I see the founder of Aikido in various qigong "meditation postures", chanting the kotodama (mantras) etc. etc., I begin to wonder.... granted some of this comes directly from Shingon via Omoto-kyo (which is supposedly Shinto-based).

But what I'm actually curious about is how this knowledge is common in yoga, buddhism (and buddhist qigong), as well as ninpo. What's the link?


Edited by eyrie (07/20/05 09:07 PM)

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#169143 - 07/21/05 09:40 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
They are spontaneous...if you experience spontaneous jhana/kundalini. Everything else, is like reading someone else's story. Kind of like which came first: the chicken or the egg. I am sure that many systems include them, either with intent to manipulate energy, or more like vestigial cultural remnants (like you see in karate katas).

Apologies if I step on any toes. I don't know anything about 'institutionalized' mudras, and am speaking from an 'experiential' viewpoint.

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#169144 - 07/21/05 09:06 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi harlan, I understand what you are saying. However, this raises a number of issues for me:
1. How is knowledge transmitted other than through experiential subjectivity?
2. If such knowledge can only be experienced, how is it that this knowledge appears in a number of different and seemingly unrelated systems? This tells me that someone must have taught or shown someone how to.
3. How is this knowledge preserved if it can only be transmitted through direct experience?

What you're saying is a valid point, but I don't want to sidetrack this discussion, as I'm specifically interested in the use of mudras with the specific intent of manipulating energy (for whatever purpose), and how this is taught within various systems that do (or profess to) use them for such purposes.

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#169145 - 07/21/05 09:50 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: LastGURU]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
We know that sounds affect energy at some level. The knowledge is common in a number of systems - mantras, kotodama, etc.

However, knowledge of hand mudras, specifically those ones used for cultivating/channeling energy through the chakras, as opposed to the vestigial remnants of energetic "postures", as harlan suggests, is not common knowledge.

My suspicion is that these seemingly "spontaneous" hand and finger positions do more than simply act as a focal point for channelling energy. The very specific finger positionings and even down to which hand over which hand, I'm sure, somehow "connects" the energy in different ways, and with different internal results.

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#169146 - 07/22/05 02:27 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
laf7773 Offline
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Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
The mudras them self are not spontaneous in the true sense of the word. Just like with any for of energy cultivation technique they are fairly specific. Arbitrary chants and hand positions will don't little of nothing for you in terms of energy cultivation. If there are any “spontaneous” mudras it is due to the individuals deeper understanding of how to open the chakras or make the proper connections to promote energy flow. You also have to look at the focus of intent behind these mudras. Simply mimicking the hand symbols and chants will also do nothing for you with out intent.

The point of this only being learned or passed through experience is partial true as well. With qigong, kuji in, yoga or any other "system" of energy cultivation/channeling/focusing anyone can be taught the postures or hand/finger positions with ease. What must be experienced is the results you get from the "proper" application of these postures/positions. These results can't and shouldn't be explained to you, as they are generally what gauge your progression to the next set or the next piece of the puzzle. This is the main reason people MUST have an experienced individual to guide them. Someone who hasn't experienced these things can never teach you the proper way to perform them, as they don't know what results to look for. You need someone with experience to sift through your over active imagination and what is actual progress.

--------------------------------------------------------

It's late, i've had a long day and the wife just came home ranting about the neighbor kids. Sorry but i lost my train of thought for the moment. I'll try and pick up where i left off tomorrow.
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#169147 - 07/23/05 09:32 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: laf7773]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
That much is already obvious. The issue is how does one progress to the next level without being shown these things or told what one should be looking for?

It is naive to think that the teacher will show/tell you how to get to the next level in due course. One could waste years of valuable training barking up the wrong tree, even under "expert" supervision. It is also in my experience, that senior teachers within the art, do not seem to have specific knowledge of these aspects. Even if they do have specific knowledge, it is not something that they would readily share, despite the fact that these things are easily demonstrable. In many cases, they simply wave it off as "rubbish", akin to the pseudo-religious "nonsense" and "mumbo-jumbo" spouted by the Founder, which many in the art do not believe in.

Irregardless, my interest at this stage is purely research, specifically the similarities of specific finger and hand positioning, and the internal exercises between systems that appear to share this knowledge. I'm not particularly interested in how this is done, since I already have an idea of the connections via corroboration with TCM principles.

My hypothesis at this stage, is that the Founder was privy to very specific qigong knowledge via various Buddhist classics (some sources suggesting that this knowledge was widely recorded in the kojiki).

One of my unanswered questions at this stage is how ninjutsu came to possess this knowledge as well, and what is the source of that knowledge. I was hoping that someone who does ninjutsu could enlighten me. Specifically, what is the historical connection (if any) between the kuji-in as practiced by certain ninjutsu-ryu and tantric-yoga? Or was this knowledge handed down via Buddhist influences and how (i.e. thru whom)?

My knowledge of ninjutsu's historical development and roots is somewhat vague (since most of it seems to be clouded in myth and mystery - for obvious reasons). I'm just trying to sort out the facts from the myth.

If that makes it clearer?

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#169148 - 07/23/05 08:21 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It appears this knowledge is not so secret after all.

Quote:

Posted by:Silatyogi (@martial arts planet)
there are many similarities in Silat to Hindu arts and also Tibetan Tantra. The postures, breathing, concentrian methods, the mental states or emotions etc.

I showed once Bon Po Tibetan Lama a Serak Djuru and his eyes got big and said that those are secret Mudras (hand postures) in Tibet! History shows us that the, hindus and Buddhist once occupied Indonesia. Most of the names in silat have sanskrit Hindu roots.





BTW, I meant corroboration with reflexolgy.


Edited by eyrie (07/23/05 08:28 PM)

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#169149 - 07/31/05 05:55 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
evileddie13 Offline
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Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 2
I used to practice ninjitsu, well taijitsu actually. Whitch is the same thing really. I trained under Kurt Rittenhouse, who trained under Stephen K. Hayes, who trained under the Matsakkit Hatsumi, Soke. Granted I haven't trained in awhile.
But I am going to share some of what I was taught in the meditation area. We were taught ,finger weaving, if you will
for the 5 elements. The meditations were guided. We were also taught to have a soft focus, basic med. stuff. When it came to Kuji-in, it never really was discussed. We were basically told not to worry about. I only made it to Go Don so I am not sure if it was going to be introduced later in training. I do know Rittenhouse was knowledgable about it because he did share one thing I was told not repeat. It was just a meditation, not trying to get all CIA or anything.
The attitude in the dojo concerning weird mind powers and the like, was that it was normal and a part of training.
Remember, the 5th Degree BB test is to have the Soke swing a sword at the back of your head. Also, I did see Jack Hoban in a seminar knock out several PPL with slight slap to the chest. The 'victims' if you will said it felt like an eletrical shock.
In trying to answer the above question, we were told finger weaving came out of India and moved west, ending up in Japan. It was the Shinobi who actually made them combat effective, if you will.
During that time in my life I was really into Western Magick and Wicca. And you will be suprised about how many similar they are, in basic theory. Like, the Grind in Kuji-Kiri is like the Lesser banishing Ritual of the Pentagram. Read 11 lessons of the High Magickal Arts by Donald Kraig and you will get it.
As for trying to learn how to meditat with the finger weaving, your better off learning just how to meditate period. Or, finding a good teacher who will teach you GOOD taijitsu. No point in trying to master space and time with RETSU if you can't move out the way of a punch in the first place.

http://shell.world-net.co.nz/~jimgould/kujiin.html

The above is a site I just found. I was impressed, was pretty straight forward.
In finish, I am just starting to learn how to meditate and its really hard. This is coming from a guy who used to practice 45min ritual with all the fury of a good pagan.
so, if anyone is intrested I can show them how to use finger weaving where it concerns the 5 elements. Give the basics and let you go from there. I take NO responsibity for what happens and will give you some basic warnings.
As my spelling, I am sorry but I blame Google. Oh, and i think i get Kuri-kiri mixed up with Kujin-in. My bad.

Jonathan


Edited by Reiki (04/20/06 03:56 PM)

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#169150 - 07/31/05 09:17 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: evileddie13]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks Jonathan (evileddie13)

Quote:


As for trying to learn how to meditat with the finger weaving, your better off learning just how to meditate period. Or, finding a good teacher who will teach you GOOD taijitsu. No point in trying to master space and time with RETSU if you can't move out the way of a punch in the first place.





It's a tad presumptious to think that, don't you think.

Quote:


I do know Rittenhouse was knowledgable about it because he did share one thing I was told not repeat. It was just a meditation, not trying to get all CIA or anything.





Hey, I know lots of "secrets" too, but I'd have to kill you if I told you, so don't go telling nobody I told you this. OK?

Quote:


we were told finger weaving came out of India and moved west, ending up in Japan. It was the Shinobi who actually made them combat effective,





Close, but not close enough. Try Shingon Mikkyo...

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#169151 - 08/01/05 02:52 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
evileddie13 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 2
first mistake, he asked me not to repeat it so I won't. As for the reason I don't know, I just repspected him enough not to say anything for what, 12 years now.

Presumptious? Come on I just stating the obvious because you quote:

"I was hoping that someone who does ninjutsu could enlighten me. Specifically, what is the historical connection (if any) between the kuji-in as practiced by certain ninjutsu-ryu and tantric-yoga? Or was this knowledge handed down via Buddhist influences and how (i.e. thru whom)?"

Your an armchair theorist. Researching Kuji-in, for what reason? So you know where it came from? Its not who made the gun, its weather you can shootn it or not.

I have no doubt that you are more knowledgeable of the specifics of the history concerning Kujin-in or whatever.
But don't ask a question from a practioner former or otherwise, then brow beat him for his answer.

You sound like a wannabe and I would bet if you were in the same room with someone who actually practiced, trained in, lived and breathed ninjitsu, you would [censored] your pants. Come to Dayton Oh, we got three Dojos in spitting distance, bujikan that is. Internet threats and challenges are childish

http://www.daytonbujinkan.com/



Long story short, this would be what? mistake number 4?.


Jonathan


Edited by laf7773 (08/01/05 03:34 AM)

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#169152 - 08/01/05 03:30 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: evileddie13]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
This is your first and only warning. You post anything like this again and you are gone. Period. If you have anything else to say on the matter direct it to MrVigerous. Any other inflammatory posts from you will be deleted on site.
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#169153 - 08/01/05 03:39 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: evileddie13]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hmmm.... touched a raw nerve somewhere?

When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

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#169154 - 08/01/05 03:48 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Eyrie,
I can't say how practices like the kuji-in were passed down but i can tell you they are not the sole property of ninjutsu or any other martial art for that matter. They are practiced independently or in conjunction with various arts. The kuji-in are not a martial art technique but more a tool used by martial artists who saw the potential in their use. They can be likened to qigong in a small way. Very few arts support or promote the practice of this such as kuji-in even within ninjutsu circles. I can only think that they are passed on in the same manner qigong would be. I’m sure you already knew this though.

I've had little exposure to them personally and honestly have little desire to. You may want to hit up kutaki or the ninpo/ninjutsu section at ebudo. Now that i think about it the genbukan forums may be a better idea as they lean more toward the ninpo side of the house than the others do and may be more inclined to practice and discuss them.
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#169155 - 08/01/05 04:08 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: laf7773]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks Lane, this is sort of information I'm looking for, or if not then at least a pointer to where I can find the information.

We all know this stuff is hardly secret. We know that thru cross-cultural fertilization and trade, this knowledge was shared at some point across a large part of Asia. We know that some of this knowledge is highly esoteric in nature and hence not readily available. We know there are similarities between practices which utilize (or claim to utilize) this knowledge, specifically for the purposes of cultivating "qi" and harnessing its use for spiritual enlightenment. We also know that specific areas of this knowledge was used to enhance "qi" cultivation for martial purposes.

Just trying to do some research.... and I just don't have the time nor patience for the mystical secrecy BS and half truths, when it is clearly "public" knowledge in a few select circles.

Thanks once again.

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#169156 - 08/29/05 02:35 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
yourownsluth Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 9
Hi Everyone, I have been reading some of your posts for a while on this and other forums. I have enjoyed your conversations. I would like to offer some insight on the finger signs. I was fortunate to train with someone who I met at a security seminar. This guy has a vey diverse background - I've been around the block a few times but nothing ever came close to this guy. He has a wierd and very applicable style. One day I asked him what some symbols he had on the wall were and he avoided the question for some time finally telling me it was mudra. I probed him for the meaning of this and tried to find out what it was for , but he changed the subject. After about a year of on and off training for security measures, I asked why he never answered my question. He said it was for his students only. These rituals are very closely guarded. This guy is very traditional. It takes a lot to get any info from him. I hounded him for a few months just to get a training session and then months after that I was still begging for some tech. He is all about loyalty. I finally developed a good relationship and was allowed to see some really affective tech. which have helped me many times in my line of work and I would say have actually saved my life a few times.
please don't post ridicule as I am posting this with the best intentions. The mudra are in Nines. He explained that most everything is in nine or 3. In numerology the 9 is a significant number. the number of man i think. The post with the 10th one being special is on track with what he told me. It seems that each mudra is consistent with a chakra and there is a specific idiogram that you trace with a certain finger sign. over time the medidtation on these points is to develop your internal power. They are somehow tied to accupuncture points. I have felt some weird things while training with him. He can hit you in the arm and it feels like your belly moves to your ribs. Tiny little nothing strikes seem like a sledge hammer. I researched it and never found anything close to what he showed me. It seems the most known is bujinkan and steve hayes. My friend brought up a point I think is valid. He stated that the old ways were not to be let out and learned by us. It is his belief that many of the so called old ways were a smoke screen for the round eye. He studies Tai Chi with an old guy who lived at the temple in China. He tells me of a story of how the village was invaded and the new rulers wanted to know the secrets of thier fighting. It's just a myth with a point, but it goes that the invaders were taught to crawl on the ground like babies. They practiced this and went backa and trained thier own. When they fought again, they fell to the ground and crawled and were killed. This is what he says has happened to most arts. the old secrets are almost all but gone. I asked a few times for more info, but he keeps telling me that I am not a student or "disciple" and wouldn't tolerate the training.
Now the other side is he didn't show me anything that I could remember. He once quickly showed me the 9 hand positions and traced a couple things in the air. He told me these things were held in a sacred way and only for "disciples". I was grateful for the info but it makes no sense.
Sorry I couldn't help out more but maybe you can get an answer from this guy. You can email him at THEDEADLYPUZZLE@NETZERO.COM. hope that helps a bit.

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#169157 - 09/06/05 09:12 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: yourownsluth]
rara2 Offline
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 2
there's a book 'Secrets of the Ninja' by Ashida Kim (Dojo Press) that has been floating around for a couple of years as a pdf online. It shows the positions & explains their relationships.
I tried out the hand positions a few times & they are deceptively difficult to get right. They produced the same kind of endorphin euphoria response that you get from a good yoga or ma workout in me.

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#169158 - 09/06/05 12:15 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: rara2]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Ashida Kim is a fraud and everything he prints are lies.
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#169159 - 09/06/05 03:34 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: laf7773]
LastGURU Offline
The one who knows
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Riga, Latvia
Quote:

Ashida Kim is a fraud and everything he prints are lies.



now you are being too categorical.i have seen that book, and the seals themselves seemed mostly correct. dont know about text though... knowing his reputation i think i am not going to read it, but the drawings themselves are useful.
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#169160 - 09/06/05 07:21 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: LastGURU]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I compared Kim's material with Liang Shou-Yu's and whilst both do leave out certain (key) information, there are many similarities in the finger knitting methods and some glaring differences. There were also some "discrepancies" in Kim's manual, but without further research it is difficult to ascertain any sort of accuracy unequivocally. In any case, Kim's manual certainly uses the right "lingo".

This is one of the difficulties I face in my research, because the teaching is traditionally closely guarded, and those in the know, are unwilling to share the investment in time and effort, for various reasons - which are understandable.

The other difficulties I face, is that hand seals are only a small part of a larger body of related knowledge that also include body seals, mantra (sounds), breath, visualization, and meridian/channels (among other things). So, invariably my research at the moment tends to be broad rather than deep as I would like it.

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#169161 - 09/06/05 11:28 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
rara2 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 2
Why not then focus your interest on 'kundalini'. Seems to me its the same force - different name. There appear to be many roads to the same destination & the yogic methods are much more available. I would think you would stumble across some of the information you are looking for there as it does seem there is a common 'root' teaching the rest evolved from in different regions incorporating the beliefs of the region into the art/path.
I suppose Im saying approaching from another direction may reveal some more of the info you are looking for.

PS Fellow Aussie here

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#169162 - 09/07/05 04:41 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: rara2]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
No, this is right; everything Christopher Hunter (aka Ashida Kim) publishes is either lies or stolen from someone elses work.

If you want a description about kuji kiri / kuji in try contacting Tanemura Shouto or reading his book Ninpo Secrets, it has some information regarding this topic.

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#169163 - 09/07/05 04:07 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
Eyrie, what key informations are missing in Shou-Yu Liang`s book? I have that book, and found the section on the seals very interesting. However, since I never read anything about it elsewhere, I can`t compare it with anything.
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#169164 - 09/11/05 08:51 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: Kosh]
tiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 16
Loc: taylor, Michigan , USA
This has nothing to do with the discussion. Keep this nonsense out of this forum section.


Edited by laf7773 (09/11/05 09:46 AM)

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#169165 - 04/11/06 10:54 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
Celeborn Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/11/06
Posts: 1
I am an east asian studies major, currently working on my honors thesis in the area of Shugendo.

If anyone wants to understand how the mikkyo techniques of Buddhism developed into the kuji-in and then spread to ninjutsu, you must explore this religion.

In Japan the Shugenja/Yamabushi was a wandering mountain ascetic whose doctrine combined Shingon with shaman, daoist, and shinto techniques and beliefs for the purpose of accumulating occult power and eventually transforming into a Buddha in their current body. They developed the kuji-in, as well as being indirectly responsible for the development of Noh theater (which was derived from their meditational dance), and many other mountain practices. Also, the ideas of Honjisuijaku, allowed for the interweaving of Buddhist and Shinto cosmologies throughout Japanese religious thought, was developed and spread by these independent monks.

Their frequent use of magic to cure diseases, perform excorsisms, walk barefoot on burning coals and the edges of katana without harm, were all attributed to the power they achieved through mountian training, standing under waterfalls, fasting, canting, and performing the kuji-in.

The traditional ninjas took advantage of the commonly held belief in the kuji-in to strike fear into their enemies. Their have been attempts made by scholars to link certain ninja clans historically with groups of shugenja, but because of the gross lack of written documentation surrounding both traditions, it has been very difficult.

Hope this helps.

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#169166 - 04/19/06 09:06 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: Celeborn]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Could you provide bibliographic references, please?

Specifically, I'm looking for a correlation between such hand formations and internal energy cultivation.

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#169167 - 04/21/06 11:12 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Specifically, I'm looking for a correlation between such hand formations and internal energy cultivation.




Think of it as 'Zhang Zhuang' involving only the hands / fingers.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#169168 - 04/22/06 01:59 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks BP... I have Liang Shou-Yu's book and so far that is the only reference I have found that has this, albeit, with very little surface level detail.

In Zhan Zhuang, one trains with holding contradictory forces in 6 directions, engaging the kua, the spine and the dantien, amongst other things.

How does hand formations relate to this?

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#169169 - 04/22/06 04:09 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Thanks BP... I have Liang Shou-Yu's book and so far that is the only reference I have found that has this, albeit, with very little surface level detail.

In Zhan Zhuang, one trains with holding contradictory forces in 6 directions, engaging the kua, the spine and the dantien, amongst other things.

How does hand formations relate to this?




You have eight fingers and two thumbs (I haven't met you personally, I just assume ) to permute with and so the possibilities for focusing of energy, when there are weaved symmetrically or asymmetrically, are immense. Like Zhan Zhuang, it is just another convenient means for the mind to focus and internalise itself back into the body; a physical, 'always-at-hand' aid for meditation. Just like basket weaving, the important end product is the whole basket and not the individual strands, which is why there are so many kinds/ways of finger weaving, depending on the tradition and whether it is for health, energy-gathering or spiritual enlightenment.

Whole-body Zhan Zhuang is macro and normally done standing; mudras are micros and therefore usually done sitted.

How dose it develop internal energy? The same way that Zhan Zhuang does. How does Zhan Zhuang develop internal energy?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#169170 - 04/22/06 10:07 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ah.... that makes a lot more sense now... thanks.

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#169171 - 04/23/06 09:30 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
This subject has always been shrouded in mystery because of its use for religious purposes. It must be remembered that historically, in the old civilisations of India, China, Japan, Tibet, there were no real division between subjects that we now call science (in the sense of the study of physical phenomena)and religion, as all physical phenomena have or were the workings of divine attributes or agencies.

So the "mudras" and the energetic effects their practices produced were seen as the conscious chanelling of divine presence(s)and the claim by some to have "visions" only serves to reinforce this. So it was something you do not teach just anybody. Even Jesus Christ was thought to have some "secret" teachings He taught to only certain desciples.

But now seen in more secular terms and accepting that the whole universe is but a closed energetic system, the mudras are a kind of antenna to harness the ambient energy and in certain context, have talismanic qualities. This occurs at the "microcosmic" when mudras are done at the individual human level.

At the home level, the intuitive placing of a potted plant, art work, sculpture etc. is a form of 'mudraic' energy chanelling.

At the town, city, national level, the mudras are the huge monuments placed at strategic locations, the mosques with the minarets, the churches with the high spires. Imagine the enhancement of the ambient cosmic energy when hundreds, thousands of people, worshipers congregating and single-mindedly focusing their attention on one object or place.


Edited by ButterflyPalm (04/23/06 10:05 AM)
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#169172 - 04/23/06 07:30 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Reminds me of a childhood game we used to play with finger knitting - this is the church, this is the steeple, and these are the people inside...

Having read a few books on the subject of feng shui, I can comprehend what you mean.

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#169173 - 05/04/06 11:37 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

I'm not too concerned about the mudras themselves. I'm not so sure these things are "spontaneous" as harlan suggests. Hand mudras are specifically taught as part of the esoterica of kundalini yoga, shingon buddhism, as a means of cultivating spiritual energy for the specific purposes of enlightenment.

When I see the founder of Aikido in various qigong "meditation postures", chanting the kotodama (mantras) etc. etc., I begin to wonder.... granted some of this comes directly from Shingon via Omoto-kyo (which is supposedly Shinto-based).

But what I'm actually curious about is how this knowledge is common in yoga, buddhism (and buddhist qigong), as well as ninpo. What's the link?




I know what you mean. My sensei has alluded to using those in the Yoshinkan headquarters but he doesn't really teach it especially since he said they would have to site like taht for more than an hour and our class is only 2 hours lol. I might ask him about them though, he only showed us one mudra as an exmaple of a common position, basically all the fingers are interlocked inwards except the indexes which touch each other at the tip and are pointing up.


I just recorded a Discover Channel thing on Samurai and part of it showed some kenjustu school and for a quick 3 second clip showed the hand of a guy doing mudras but it was only in the middle of his thing (don't know what to call mudra practice) and I only caught about 3 mudras, I will post them up here once I get my video stuff working.

But anyone who has trained in any of the Aikido headquarters (yoshinkan, aikikai, etc doesn't matter) know of mudras?

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#169174 - 05/04/06 11:45 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
O crap lol

I just did a quick google search

This page has the EXACT routine I saw on the kenjutsu dojo doing:

http://www.dragonsofjustice.org/formation/

The fourth one is the one that Ueshiba does most often


Edited by SpeedyGonzales (05/04/06 11:45 PM)

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#169175 - 05/04/06 11:48 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
http://mobilemouse.co.nz/ninjutsu/kujiin.html

Well actually this website has the one I saw the kenjutsu guys doing, this is it.

The one I posted in teh last post was closer to the ones Ueshiba did.

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#169176 - 05/05/06 12:18 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Best website so far:
http://www.dragonsofjustice.org/basic/kujiInBasics.html



Okay that is what Ueshiba is mostly seen doing, it was labeled as "healing" on that website
[image]http://www.dragonsofjustice.org/formation/KI-Sha1.jpg[/image]

This is teh sequence I saw a kenjutsu guy on the Discover Channel do:

[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_rin.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_kyo.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_toh.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_sha.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_kai.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_jin.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_retsu.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_zai.jpg[/image]
[image]http://kogaryu.vilabol.uol.com.br/kujikiri/kuji_zen.jpg[/image]

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#169177 - 05/05/06 12:19 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
images aren't working... o well go to teh websites and tell me if they are legit?

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#169178 - 05/09/06 02:29 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
telecino Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 30
Loc: St-Raymond, canada
Hi guys,

My name is Francois Lepine, creator of this Dragons of Justice web site, that was complimented two posts away (on page 4). Thank you for the positive comment.

In case you are interested in Kuji-in, i'll be giving a LIVE and FREE audio conference at http://www.livemaster.org. Kuji-in was used by more than martial artists, but the martial artists were the ones to make it popular.

Kuji-in is a part of the japanese buddhists "mikkyo" or esoteric teachings. It is a simple ritual practice that makes your entire system work better, and has other nice side-effects, like the increase of strength.

For expample, the more your brain can push electricity into your muscles, the stronger you are physically. This is an expample of scientific application of kuji-in to enhance strenght.
_________________________
Ven. Francois Lepine http://www.kujiin.com

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#169179 - 05/14/06 01:21 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: telecino]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

the more your brain can push electricity into your muscles, the stronger you are physically.




...and when done with strong muscular tension, it becomes Sanchin; when done relaxed, it is Tai Chi Chuan and somewhere in between Bagua, Xing Yi & Yi Chuan.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#169180 - 05/15/06 02:52 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
VineyardPK Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 5
hm, yeah... i can do hand mudras to make me turn into a giant snake... yeah... oh yeah... heh heh heh heh... yeah... i eat you language, please (edit: hey! you changed it Matt! that's not fair ;P oh well)


Edited by VineyardPK (05/15/06 04:27 PM)
_________________________
- Steve http://vineyardpk.deviantart.com

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#169181 - 05/19/06 03:41 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: VineyardPK]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
I don`t find your post funny at all. This is (was) a serious discussion.
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#169182 - 08/18/06 08:03 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: Kosh]
Juntsunkun Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1
hi im new on this forums, just found this so i don't have an idea of what lvl most people are on, how skilled most people around here are...

i didn't read all the posts yet but i will tomorrow if i wake up its allready 2 am over here... and i still need to do some more tai chi training before i go to sleep...

ok lets cut down to the real stuff...
im just gonna share with you all what i have been thaught all my life, react, tell me how you feel bout it, and if im right/wrong+why...
the guy before me or after me can tell you exect the opposite or the same i dunno this is what i know

-kuji-in also known as the nine cuts or as the nine different levels, im thaught that these are not the best cuts but the most known, there are 81 and it took a lifetime to master em all... some people could use em greatly others couldn't it kinda was best student gets em all situation... so well vertically nothing known bout the other 72 if anyone has info on the others please PLEASE contact me... the nine levels are rin, kyo ,toh,sha,kai,jin,retsu,zai,zen i used them a while but couldn't really place em, maybe i was to young to unexperienced... i dunno i recently tried em again and asked my teacher he told me to meditate while making a "cut" and focusing on whatever that one was supposed to do... so for example if you use the "shu-cut" during meditation you should focus on healing from the inside out, its not to brag or anything but i'm still expierimenting more so i cant tell anything yet... altho i do tai chi and i study mostly martial and selfhealing forms so... that might interfere as well i don't know we will see... i know much more, but i'm getting tired , wanna know more pm me...

-kuji-kiri = a grid of nine lines are drawn to invaoke the sae powers as in the kuji-in i know most bout this to heal illness ...

either you call me a fool or a master... i really don't care i just wonder how much you people know about all of this, i really hope you are all high leveled and i wish you all love peace, and growth i would like to apologize as well for my bad english...

thank you
Juntsunkun

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#169183 - 01/17/07 11:03 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
*bump*

I forgot about this old article...but it's topical:


Ninpo-Kuji Connection; Tradition or Tantalizing Topic?


“Is Mikkyo’s kuji-in the same as other martial arts?” While it may be enticing to properly compare the “borrowing” of lineage-based Kuji-in teachings amidst a variety of martial arts, both modern and ancient, my own limitations prevent me from even commenting to a learned degree on the question. So my response below is meant to provide a reference of sorts for the above question from the religious and spiritually-significant tradition of Japanese esoteric Buddhism, or mikkyo. Those more learned in martial traditions may then extrapolate their own understanding in light of orthodox teachings.

Mikkyo by definition is an orally-transmitted lineage body of teachings, practices and interpretations of Japanese Buddhism. As such, it is imperative that a master impart these highly-charged teachings to a certain pupil, disciple or group of disciples. Mikkyo teachings have been printed, distributed and read for an extremely long time in Japanese (and recently, in non-Japanese languages). These interpretations and translations are little more than notes to the essential dictate that the master imparts; the mind-to-mind transmission that is beyond the printed word.

A variety of Japanese esoteric Buddhist schools exists in which classical Mikkyo teachings are said to be transmitted. These include the Shingon school (shingon tomitsu), the Yamabushi-affiliated schools (shugendo mikkyo) and the Tendai school (tendai taimitsu). Other, “newer-age” Japanese Buddhist interpretational schools also purport to transmit esoteric teachings similar to mikkyo, including the popular Agon sect in Japan, of which I have no firsthand experience and can not evaluate. In the traditional schools, certain transmission documents exist to prove the legacy transmission between master and disciple. These documents prove the effective training and reception of mikkyo teachings and only apply to the established lineage of professional priests found today in Japan.

My own experience is limited to this cadre of priests (most specifically from the Tendai denomination) but in private conversations with several of my esoteric instructors, I was informed that certain individuals do indeed receive esoteric transmissions that are not annotated on a particular school’s “boards of transmission receivers” and may in fact be considered private and efficacious transmissions.

No disciple is considered proficient in the method who has not endured the preparatory practices of esoteric Buddhism. It would be comical to the traditional lineages of Japanese Buddhism for an aspirant to “just learn Kuji” because of the very strict emphasis placed upon both purification and empowerment practices. An aspirant would be counseled as to the appropriate measures to undertake, usually for an extended period before initiation within the method was extended.

Without a sanctified initiation (or kanjo) within the specific method to be transmitted, traditional mikkyo theory is that the method, although understood and practiced in good faith, is of shallow efficacy. In other words, without the master’s express consent and “blessing,” even following the prescribed method to a tee from the ritual manual will be of little value. For this reason, the printed editions of various esoteric texts are really not heavily prized, though considered sacred as essential teachings. Firstly, they are most often written at a level which does not explicitly discuss their contents and secondly, translations of their contents serve little more than as reference for academics. To practice a ritual merely from even a well-performed translation is seen as base in the world of actual practitioners.

Once a disciple has completed the preparatory stages, received consecrated initiation and performed the method literally hundreds of times, (s)he is further tested according to the dictates of her/his specific lineage school. Without this polishing, no amount of self-interest is of value. Therefore, no legitimate master would entertain thoughts from their pupil of “I’ve come to this…or that” who had not practiced the method for years.

With this backdrop in place it is appropriate then to briefly pull back the doors to what precisely constitutes the practice of the Kuji-in, Kuji-kiri and Kuji-Goshin-Ho (or kuji-goshin-bo). Volumes have been written in the Japanese language of what the practice of the Kuji-in might be like, what it might allude to, and how it might be implemented. Few of these volumes have been written by recognized clergy and even fewer have described the Kuji-in as a facet of the faith (some might say “faiths?”) from which it stems. Again, thinking one can learn such methods from books is nonsensical.

The Kuji-kiri as transmitted by the Shugendo branch found atop Mount Yoshino outside modern Nara, Japan is possibly the most basic interpretation as found in Japanese Buddhism. Literally the “Rite of Cutting the Nine Characters,” it is performed as a part of the Shugendo Fudo Myo-O Kaji-kito Goma (or Esoteric Fire Ritual and Empowerment Rite upon Aryacalanatha) and involves the expulsion and purification prior to the initial burning of the volatile offerings within the fire of consecration. This preliminary “cutting” of the Kuji grid and the subsequent nine (ten) mantra invocations are preformed as a tantric expulsion and strengthening rite prior to an orally-transmitted “capping procedure.” This capping procedure is not written in the priest’s ritual booklet of procedures but instead transmitted from master to disciple in private. Therefore, the pupil then, as a facet of the complete ritual, performs the Kuji rite, follows this with the capping ritual and continues the ritual.

The Shugendo Kuji-kiri practice outlined above presents a variety of alternative and related practices. A plethora of rites are to be found, to include the Kuji-in, or “Nine Mudra/Seals,” the Kuji-Goshin-Ho, or “Nine-Sealed Bodily Protection Method,” and the Juji-Ho, or “Ten Seal Empowerment Method” amongst others. Each of these methods is of course an orally-transmitted rite, and follows the outline as discussed above.

One might then ask what indeed are the “kuji-related” methods that lineage-based mikkyo traditions implement and master within their cannon of esoteric teachings. In simplest terms, all of the methods alluded to above are entrance gates to the purifying and empowering components of Buddhist awakening. They are succinctly postulated upon the marriage of deep compassion and hardened wisdom. While provisional and very meaningful extrapolations may be drawn from the motifs present in the methods described above, their primary and unwavering alignment is to a method of complete emancipation; in Buddhist parlance, a dramatic and all-encompassing revolution through awakening.

It has been said that methods such as these were “borrowed,” “absorbed,” even “leveraged” by a variety of organizations, both martial and otherwise. I shall leave this to much more knowledgeable authorities to comment upon but it should be remembered, or rather it is fairest to remember, that these methods are firstly concerned with the intrinsic properties of human benevolence and crystal awareness. Without deep prowess, mined from the depths of empowered practice, no amount of “trying it out,” or “making it up” will make up for the overpowering ego which besets the individual not properly learning Kuji-related practices.

It is therefore paramount that during a disciple’s preparatory training that deep humility and an all-embracing empathy arise which will prevent the selfish tendencies within human life from eclipsing the selfless passion to assist all beings in delivering themselves. One such method is the prostration rite. An acolyte might be commanded to perform hundreds, or thousands or prostrations, over and over again, focusing on the sacrifice of self-interest and the birth of supreme compassion and reverence for all life. In other words, the practitioner embraces all suffering as one’s own, holding nothing back, until a stainless and piercing attitude of supreme reverence and understanding arises. Without this, no amount of Kuji chanting, finger-weaving or effect imagining will be of any value or sanctity.

The specific focus that this article has been written to address is that of a supposed Ninpo/Ninjutsu relation to the practice of the Kuji-in and its corresponding practices. Who indeed is to say which ancient ninja schools assimilated which spiritual or quasi-religious practices? Several prominent authorities in the world of Ninjutsu arts (see S. Hayes Warrior Ways of Enlightenment, M. Hatsumi personal discussion April 1992, etc.) have added to the developing discussion, but overall, history may be shrouded in complete mystery over the how’s and why’s. What is paramount to present is that the religious orientation of traditional mikkyo is probably not best preserved in a school of martial lineage. I feel confident that this would be supported by the majority of Ninjutsu authorities; religion in the dojo is a sensitive and oft times dangerous topic.

With this exoteric view of classical mikkyo and Kuji-related practices, it may best be said that few people would be comfortable or capable of enduring the comprehensive dedication and tutelage necessary to truly “practice Kuji.” Most are quite intent upon dissecting the very roots from which practices such as these stem and instead, getting to the “marrow of the method.”

May all discussions be fruitful and lead to higher wisdom,

Rev. Jion Prosser
Tendai Lotus Teachings
www.tendai-lotus.org

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#169184 - 01/17/07 06:37 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks for the article... I'm afraid the cat is long out of the bag and there are people out there teaching/practising the "marrow" without the supposedly concomitant vestiges of the ritual - a ritual reserved for the best and brightest star, deserving of the master to pupil transmission... hence mikkyo (secret teaching).

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#169185 - 07/04/07 11:36 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
Shae Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Southern California
Thank you telecino I was going to mention your books untill I saw your post. After 10 years of study (not practice) I have learned that the mudras are a universal subconcious code to adjust boilogical, neural, and energetic systems of the body many mystic societys have discovered some of them and use the ones they have an assoiate actualy uses them to redirect his inner energy in times of stress to keep from dieing and he discovered them on his own.
_________________________
I'm here to learn/teach and as Soko Hatsumi says "play good"

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#169186 - 06/13/08 09:22 AM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: Shae]
telecino Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 30
Loc: St-Raymond, canada
I might add to the article of Rev. Jion Prosser that i agree only a master/disciple relationship can transmit the wisdom and consciousness in the most efficient way. However, eventually, somewhere in the past, some people created this practice without someone teaching them. It is possible to learn by oneself, only it takes longer, much longer, since the higher consciousness of the teachings has to be acquired alone, thru dedicated practice.

May i also add that the Buddha himself, on his death bed, declared that he allways thought esoteric and exoteric wisdom to whoever came, without discerning one or another, as he did not believe that a master should hold secret the sacred wisdom, keep a vital teaching from anyone.

If a seeker wants to practice something of high level of wisdom, and he is not allowed to recieve the instructions about it because of distance or availability, then it is really better to send this seeker to other activities that will discourage him on his quest? or should we give the seeker whatever will at least bring him closer to what he aspires?

I have given the esoteric and exoteric wisdom about Kuji-In, and i am about to write a book on Kuji-Kiri, adapted to a modern environment, where i do speak of the Buddha's message, about eliminating the cause of suffer, but i abstain from saying words that would prevent the seeker from accepting the teachings. In this moderns world, some people do not want to ear about the Buddha, or Faith at all, so i use words like Supermer Consciousness, and elevated self trust (which is faith).

The Buddha instructed us into finding expedient means to bring people out of their suffering. In this situation regarding martial arts, the martial artists seek power. They think at least that they seek power, while in fact they seek happiness, but under the experience of power. So, instead of speak to them about happiness, i'll show them everything so that they can acquire power. This is the Buddha's teachings. Once these wonderful martial artists discover themselves in power, they will finally yearn for a higher level of wisdom, such as pure happiness based on nothing. Thus, until someone has experiences what he seeks, he will not be satisfied. If they want power, i'll teach power openly, without restraint, without fear of the outcome.

When someone goes to a doctor or drugstore, he can get pills, and the bottle says "take X pills, for X times, but do not go boyond X limit". Thus, when i deliver wisdom about Kuji-In or Kuji-Kiri, i do not fear the absurd warnings that past masters declared about the misuse or abuse of mystical powers. I simply say "Use Kuji-In in X ways, doing X thing, and do not go beyond X experience until you actually get there".

Why do i not encase Kuji-In in a religous experience? Because the people don't want to know about the religous experience, but about Kuji-In. I share the wisdom in the way that it is requested, in order to provide a satisfaction about the specific need, so that the seekers can go beyond. Once filled with the power of their experience, they will be mature and responsible enough to decide if they wish for a religious experience or not. This is none of my business. The Buddha instructed me to bring happiness and aleviate suffering for humanity. This is exactly what i do.

There has been discussion around the web about my comptenence and authenticity, simply because it is hard to esstablish such a thing. Suffice to say that those who know, they know. Last month, i was having initiation with the Grand Master of my religious order (Hongaku Jodo), the master Yushi Misu Daishi Sensei acknowledged my work and the title of Ajari (Sanskrit: Acharya, English: Bishop). I also had very nice conversations with Shinong master Numai Ticho about Mikkyo and the celebration of Vajra in various forms. Together, we don't care about titles, ranks, acknwledgements, authenticity, but the world seems to care, so here you go. I've met with some of the highest masters in the world of Buddhism, and we agree about each our ways of doing, because being Buddhists, we can only rejoice when new people practice the tools of the Dharma, be them Buddhist or not.

Awaken, awaken allready, the lot of you. And until than, get your hands on Kuji-In and Kuji-Kiri material, with lots, limited, or no guidance at all, and practice diligently. In your heart, what you realy desire, it will come to be while you put your focus onto it. If you are a bad person using power to cause suffering, karma will get to you faster if you use mystical systems. If you are a good person, then eventually you will awaken. Stop being afraid of seing peopel practice faith in whatever way they wish.

My karma was to be born in occident, where temples are rare and internet is common. I accept my karma entirely. You should all do the same.

As long as you agree to those:
- Not to kill
- Not to steal
- Not to lie
- To have responsible sexual behaviors that does not cause suffering
- Not to intoxicate yourself, or do stuff that makes you lose your mind.

The above are the only precepts of life that the common people need to respect in order to prevent the cause of suffering. From this, the label on my bottle indicates the proper possology and warnings. Read the label, understand it, then dive into the contents.

May you all be blessed on your path.

Ven. Francois Lepine
Hongaku Jodo (adapted as Quantum Buddhism)
Modern enlightened master

PS: You should also try to find a good teacher/master, to accelerate your progress, but only if you feel comfortable about it.
_________________________
Ven. Francois Lepine http://www.kujiin.com

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#169187 - 02/17/09 01:30 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: telecino]
Daisan Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/16/09
Posts: 1
Hey, great stuff here about Kuji-in/Kuji-kiri and related material!

As a student of martial arts and a seeker on the spiritual path, I have come across many people claiming one thing or another. Making claims is the easy part. Following through on them is the tougher part. Following through consistently is practically non-existent.

One thing I can safely say about this thread, is that the one called 'Telecino' here, is the real deal. The Venerable Francois Lepine, or as I call him Maha Vajra, has taught me much about spirituality, Buddhism, and the Kuji systems.

I have been training in his system for years and have experienced very real results. I am content that he knows what he knows, for I have felt it for myself and I continue to feel it as I progress in my own travels on the path.

With respect to all, I count myself blessed to have found such a teacher. He teaches in a way that is meaningful to me and to many others. His lessons have been verified through numerous classical sutras and text, that I have found through other channels and that Maha has provided. The message is clear and consistent. The messenger is too.

My thanks to Maha for his teachings, guidance, and support on my spiritual journey.

Tony Griffin

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#169188 - 02/17/09 02:16 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: Daisan]
budo_magus Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1
I concur. I too have come across Francois Lepine, aka Maha Vajra a number of years ago. I've done all sorts of things, logging a lot of time in yoga, qigong, and various meditation styles under other teachers.

I realize that my opinion will not be a popular one. however, I've noticed that whenever I followed Maha's teachings, particularly his Kuji system, with regularity that moments of spiritual revelation would come much more frequently.

In times when I had financial stress, he never turned me away because I couldn't afford a book, or headphones for discussions. He gave me the books, and even money for headphones. He did not require any service from me in exchange, and it is out of a desire to repay his kindness that I decided to chime in here. Even though I went my own way numerous times over the years, he always quickly responded to my questions and offered guidance.

Shawn Zemba

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#425954 - 03/20/10 02:13 PM Re: kuji no in/kuji kiri/hand mudras [Re: eyrie]
sachslx Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/20/10
Posts: 1
actually there is a difference between Kuji Kiri and Kuji in. This I find seems to be forgotten. Seems like all think Kuji kiri and Kuji in as the same art but this is not true. Kuji Kiri is energy cultivation....and Kuji in is the Shugendo/Shinobi warriors energy channeling as I know.

me, I am still looking for the Kuji Kiri practise

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