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#167496 - 06/20/06 05:11 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Maybe thats his point, but why is he talking like he just discovered boxing and they hit hard!! As you mentioned its accepted and controlled while sparring.

I understand alot people train in something they call whatever, but by the sure meaning of MA, its not MAs. If it was contact would be accepted.

Point fighting maybe I'd agree 100% with him and U. But to some glove boxing is light contact or only a part of, nothing specail.

Leo-e-49 I agree with that 100% you got to learn to get it you got to bring it.


Edited by Neko456 (06/20/06 05:18 PM)
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#167497 - 06/20/06 05:14 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Leo_E_49]
heavygloves Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 5
Quote:


I think what he was referring to is that in many other MA, you don't ever even experience getting hit and that this can be a bad thing if the first time you get hit is in a self defense situation. Being hit takes getting used to (even if only because you made a mistake and didn't dodge a hit), once you're used to it, it's not as big a deal anymore. If the first time you get hit hard is in a self defense situation, you could go into shock, this is why regular contact sparring is a plus point for boxing in terms of self defense.




This is what I'm getting at. It's not like I get my nose broken every time I spar, fer Chrissakes. But I get a bloody lip every couple of weeks, or a black eye, or a good bruise. I've had my nose broken twice in three years of boxing and three amateur bouts. You're right -- we hit hard. Swimmers get wet. Anyway, I guess I've made my point: IMO, the boxer's advantage is his being acclimated to taking and dishing out an actual, full-speed beating. I'm sure there are other martial arts that train this hard, and I'd be curious to know what they are.

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#167498 - 06/20/06 05:26 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I hope this doesn't sound like me being a knucklehead but as your boxing improves a once broken noses become blood nose then a scrachte of the nose. He gets the broken nose or he's staggered or KOd. 2Wins and 1Lost sounds like you got a pretty good chin, a good punch and a high torlance for pain. Add a little more defense and better foot work, you on your way. Regional Championship, then who knows.

Good luck.


Edited by Neko456 (06/20/06 05:28 PM)
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#167499 - 06/20/06 05:35 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
heavygloves Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 5
Quote:

2Wins and 1Lost sounds like you got a pretty good chin, a good punch and a high torlance for pain.




Damn, you got me dialed in.

Quote:

Add a little more defense and better foot work, you on your way. Regional Championship, then who knows.




Thanks, but I'm too old for that. Masters Division is non-ranked. It's just for fun, 35 and older, when you get too old for amateur fights. This is just to give my kids something to cheer for. I would like to pick up a grappling art and try a MMA bout. I'm 39, BTW.

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#167500 - 06/21/06 11:55 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Quote:


As for being hit by a boxers. They hit hard, you get use it & you learn to roll with it, Its not that big a deal.




No, it really is a BIG deal. Getting hit hard is what loses the fight, so hit hard and you'll win it. Hitting hard isn't just a BIG deal, it is THE deal (along with defensiveness, obviously).

Since everyone wants to talk about 'teh str33t', then it's worth remembering that most people don't ever fight full-contact, and most have never been hit as hard as Leo and Gloves spoke about. It's a hell of an advantage to be able to dish out shots like that, and take them.

Finally, I think some people think that boxers *always* train with gloves on - not true. Boxers' hands ain't pearly white, they're 'conditioned' - not neccessarily a good thing in terms of arthritis, but I digress.
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#167501 - 06/21/06 12:52 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: TimBlack]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Tim defense stops you from getting hit hard and sets up your shots. Usually one or two telling blows ends or sets up the end of a bout or accumaltively. But getting hit hard not telling/flush you can get use to.

Boxers hit hard so what news, alot skills hit hard Thai-boxers knee/elbow hard, Goju Karate guys kick hard enough to bust your grion/cup. Kenpo/Kempo (all karate) guys stomp you in the face and chest while you are on the ground after being swept, sparring. So what, its expected.

Getting hit hard is just part of training, boxers are able to take boxing shots. But most would quit if they took a thigh or knee kick, espeicailly because they wouldn't expect it or be prepared for it. And it could be career ending. Being hit from behind is something also boxers are not use to. People that box don't talk about getting hit hard, unless its a exceptional striker, like Tyson use to be. Just like people that can swim don't talk about the deep end of pool or getting wet.

As for hitting out of the gloves most boxers really throw their (veritcle fist) hooks in a way that it could cause a break in the little finger on contact.

Now to me nothing hits harder then mother earth being slammed to the ground hurts far worst then being punched. Its no way to roll or prepare for that kinda jolt, especailly if you don't know how break your fall.

Heavy gloves once you start fighting MMA you will under stand that boxing is just 1 of the 4-5 skills needed. You will only be in that range for an instant. You may only be able to use your boxing skill in breif moments. Unless they want to compare their stand up to yours. Beware of the thigh kick, it will turn your stomach. Your Leg locks up and stomach pain until you get use to it, but its a setup for raining blows!!

Boxing is a good skill but its only 1 range of fighting. Boxers imagine being mounted, choked, elbowed and punched in the face on the ground. Turn your back and you are punuched from the back and choked out. Boxing is good but out of its elements its a shark out of water. What happens to a shark out of water?

Stay in the ring if you just want to box, theres a whole new world out there.

Boxing will work very well on the street IN ITS ELEMENT/range.
Just because I don't call myself a boxer don't mean I can't box. I still don't like getting hit hard, its just comes with the territory.


Edited by Neko456 (06/21/06 12:59 PM)
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#167502 - 07/03/06 08:24 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Shah_k_mate Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 1
Hello All, I am new to the forum and this discussion has made me decide to join. I have noticed everyone here just goes into a pissing contest about this style and that style when that wasn't the question. The question was: Is boxing realistic for self defense...

Absolutely... I believe the guy is asking about self defense, not competing or fighting for "sport" and I do not mean sport as in boxing ring sport. I have worked in a nightclub setting since I was 16 years old...(14 years, I am now 30) And unfortunately with that territory I have been involved in at least 200 "street fights". I was a golden gloves fighter with over 60 amateur fights. I am not claiming to be some sort of expert; however I do have a lot of experience in real situations.

If the guy is talking about the street setting of fighting then you must know what street fighting is before you start breaking out the all the MA stuff. Street fights usually, note I used "usually" and not an absolute term like "always", occur in settings where someone is drunk, high or some other irrational thought process. Any trained fighter should have an advantage over someone in this state of mind. First thing I learned was to remove emotion, not drive, but emotion. This is true with any MA that I know. Making a judgment based purely off emotion is a weakness. "Most" people who engage in street fighting are not MA people, since the one thing that has been left out of these posts is talk of discipline. People who are proficient at fighting are not "usually" the ones who start the fight, lets face it if you are an MA and you are out starting fights like a thug then you are bully and an A$$hole and are not worthy of even training. "Most" people I know who train hard respect the skill(no matter what style it is) and do not go out and abuse it. Now if you are challenging other fighter then it is the "sport" that I mentioned earlier. Again do not confuse that term with the type of competition sports you watch on TV where there are refs and judges. As far as your fighting element, most people that are fighting on the streets are not throwing devastating kicks, or clean punch, they windmill and try to get in close enough to wrestle. Boxing, as well as many MA teaches you how to deal with this exact situation.

Boxing teaches you how to fight while in pain, while on the move, stresses footwork and how to elude and evade, discipline, effective shots and combos, athleticism, how to fall( Iím not sure what boxing gym doesn't teach this, but if they aren't teaching it go find another school) how to control your opponents movement, counter attacking, lateral movement and angled shots, how to take a punch (someone made mention that good boxers don't get hit.. that is BS, granted your defense "should" control how often and how hard you get hit, but no matter who the fighter is he will get hit sometime in his life and anyone who trains with the impression that they will never get hit is at a huge disadvantage to someone who knows that a hit may come through the defense and how to deal with those unexpected shots. I call it the street chaos factor). Boxing also teaches breathing control and a solid upper body defense.

Now I would advise the would-be learner of boxing to take some of the criticisms of these posts and do some bare handed training because there is a difference in hitting with wraps and gloves and hitting without them. Also learn the "dirty" techniques, I have broken many hands with the forehead block and I have ended several fights with stepping in with a head but on the clinch, if you don't respect the head but watch the damage that is caused in any boxing match, especially proficient users like holyfield. Do not neglect the elbow shots. After you have become somewhat proficient at boxing then take up a ground fighting style, to compliment your hands and you will be "safer" than 90% of the people on this planet in an unarmed one-one self defense situation in the streets.

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#167503 - 07/03/06 09:32 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Shah_k_mate]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Welcome to the FA forum. Nice first post you've got right there. Very informed and well explained.
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#167504 - 07/04/06 01:40 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Mr_Heretik Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
Yeah what Leo said.

One thing I'm not sure about is the discipline you mentioned. I would say that almost all of the schools give a person good discipline, but I've seen less of this in boxing gyms. I've seen people who take boxing for two weeks, spar with their friends who aren't trained.. and then decide to feel bad and start trouble with someone. I have nothing against boxing, but for some reason I've only seen this kind of thing happen with someone who practiced Boxing. I've yet to see a Karateka start trouble. Maybe because boxing isn't always seen as a martial art?

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#167505 - 07/04/06 01:55 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Mr_Heretik]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I've yet to see a Karateka start trouble. Maybe because boxing isn't always seen as a martial art?





I have seen MORE than my share of "karateka" with attitudes. Remember that human beings populate the fighting arts. Idiots and @ssholes are everywhere - regardless of style or discipline.


-John

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