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#167486 - 06/20/06 12:31 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: JKogas]
heavygloves Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 5
I'm new to this forum, about three years of boxing, looking to expand my MA skills. I'm currently 2-1 as a USA Boxing Master's Division Heavyweight. I am a bit hesitant to make my first post on this site on such a contentious issue, but I found this forum doing a search to convince my sister to let my nephew take up boxing as "self defense."

I can't stress enough what happens to your mind and your body when a trained boxer connects with a clean, solid cross or hook. If you haven't been hit that hard under the stress of combat, you need to be to really understand what I'm talkig about. But I'll try to explain it. The first time it happened to me, my body went crazy -- panic, cold sweat, my knees buckled, I saw stars. I ended up on my knees with dry heaves. And that was a bodyblow -- a shovel hook to the solar plexus. The only thing that's happened to me in my life that I can compare it to is getting in a car accident that I didn't see coming. The force was comparable, as was the resulting shock. Your brain just shuts down and you keep repeating, "WTF just happened?" because you have no frame of reference.

Now, I'm not a wimp. I wrestled in high school, I was a fullback on my high school AAA varsity team, I played a couple years as a hooker on an intermural "fun league" rugby team in college, and play soccer in a men's league that allows contact. I lift weights. I'd been boxing for about 4 months and had been knocked around pretty good. I'm pretty big, and I'm strong, and I'm no stranger to getting hit. Or so I thought.

My first cognitive thought after this guy hit me was, "Sweet Jesus, what if this guy had hit me like that on the street?" Nothing -- and I mean nothing -- had prepared me for the physical reaction to a full-force punch from a trained boxer. Granted, he was a heavyweight with, IIRC, 15 amateur bouts under his belt, but it nearly threw me into full-blown shock. I had to throw it in for the day because I couldn't stop shaking.

It took another year of conditioning to learn to keep fighting after someone lands a punch like that -- not so much the physical as the mental conditioning: to not even blink, to just keep going with a poker face, to counterpunch when your instincts are screaming at you that something is horribly wrong and you're in serious danger. That's the conditioning that, IMO, boxing gives you for the street, that many other martial arts -- the ones that don't train full-contact -- can't. A trained boxer, especially a light heavyweight or above, can not only deliver a punch like that, but can take one. And if a boxer hits someone with that kind of force -- and in a fight, he more than likely will -- and the opponent isn't conditioned to take it, the resulting shock and hesitation will determine the outcome of the fight.

I hope I never fight outside the ring. But if I do, I'm going in hard, and he's going down the first time I connect.

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#167487 - 06/20/06 01:11 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Granted, he was a heavyweight with, IIRC, 15 amateur bouts under his belt, but it nearly threw me into full-blown shock. I had to throw it in for the day because I couldn't stop shaking.




Been there too. When it happened to me, I had to lie down for several hours because my legs couldn't hold my weight. Spent most of the time babbling incoherently apparently, although I don't have much of a recollection of it, besides really wanting to go to sleep but not being able to.

Don't make the assumption that other MA can't produce the same result. This happened to me when I was kicked 3 times in the head in a full-contact WTF Tae Kwon Do sparring tournament. The first kick was bad luck and lack of concentration, the other two took me down to my knees.

Since I've never been cleanly KOed, only partially blacked out, I'm not sure which is worse. But going into shock after being hit is a nasty experience for sure and not something I'd want to have happen the first time in a self defense situation.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/20/06 01:15 PM)
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#167488 - 06/20/06 01:13 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Glockmeister]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
How many boxing matches have you seen or been in count the times the referee breaks them or they get tied up. Either so the guy can't hit them or just to rest and test. Lets not play like these things can't happen, the greatest boxer in world will and can get tied up. They learn it to rest and feel your strength, its part of training, as mentioning with takng shots on the arms as a defense. Bare fisted or steel booted you can lose the use of a limb for a while.

They have Pros and Cons in a Real street fight like any system. Speed, contact, fitness and power are a Pro for them. Overall awarness of what can happen is a Con.

AGREE ITS A GOOD PLATFORM TO BUILD FROM. And is potent, but I'VE seen BOXERS lose fight in the street and win some. Usually taken out of their element with a grabbing strike or picked up an thrown to the ground. If you don't know how to break your fall you can break something.

I agree with all Pros the conditioning, contact, the flow and timing. They are subject to certain trained comfort zones, if you mix it with something that extends the range and mind, its better. Like any self defense system.

As for being hit by a boxers. They hit hard, you get use it & you learn to roll with it, Its not that big a deal. The thing thats consistant with any fight method it is the shot that you don't see or expect that REALLY hurts you.


Edited by Neko456 (06/20/06 03:55 PM)
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#167489 - 06/20/06 01:21 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

The thing thats consistant with any fight method is the shot that you don't see or expect that REALLY hurts you.




EXCELLENT POINT. I agree 100%, if you are trained, it is pretty difficult to hurt you if you know it's coming. Almost every case that I have been hurt or KO'd was from the shot I didn't see.

AKK specialized in using so-called "obscure zone" techniques for precisely that purpose.
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#167490 - 06/20/06 02:36 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
heavygloves Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 5
Quote:


As for being hit buy a boxers they hit hard you get use it you learn to roll with it, Its not that big a deal.




No, it really is; that was the point of my post. Unless you get hit that hard all the time, it is a very, very big deal.

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#167491 - 06/20/06 03:43 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
If you get hit boxing all the time you have not learned to box. You are just somebodies punching bag. Theres a reason they call it the sweet science. If you don't know it is a big deal for YOU. And you will not be good at boxing. When you are a good boxer its really hard to hit him hard until he gets tired or you catch him by surprise. For example have you seen the middleweights on down. Avoid a hook by turn their head (moving their chin), simultanously throwing a jab. You miss and they rock your head or 1-2 comob deck u. Not many HW do it but its a cute move.

You got boxing and you got putting on the gloves. Two totalling different things. I thought you were a 2w-1L pro or HW whatever. If contacts new to you, Good luck.

I'm impressed by every new concept until I understand it. Then I'm really impressed, just a note you don't have to get hit or hit that hard relax, be loose. Never mind You'll get it.

MattJ "Those that know, Know, BTDT". Those that think the Know, don't have clue yet.
By the way thats not referering to anybody just a thought. I mean I may not have a clue good boxers may get beat up all the time sparring? I've seen two good boxer really go at each other and no one gets hurt just respect. Now a bloody nose or busted lip ain't getting hurt in contact sports IMHO. Sometimes it not even that.

Being funny but have u noticed that a boxer connecting 40-50% of his punches, its a wash or not evenly matched. TKO stoppage usually.

If 30-40% connect both ways their evenly matched, Unless as you mentioned 20% of one them are POWER SHOTS!!! Out of 100 strikes 70 miss and 30 land, thats boxing, why defense. The other way is being someones PB.


Edited by Neko456 (06/20/06 04:18 PM)

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#167492 - 06/20/06 04:17 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
heavygloves Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 5
Quote:

If you get hit boxing all the time you have not learned to box.




Not true at all. If you box, you're going to get hit, and you're going to get hit hard. You're always learning, and learning involves screwing up. In boxing, screwing up means getting hit hard.

Quote:

When you are a good boxer its really hard to hit him hard until he gets tired or you catch him by surprise.




Not true at all. Not remotely true.

Quote:

I thought you were a 2w-1L pro or HW whatever. If contacts new to you, Good luck.




Contact is not new to me. That, again, was my point.

Quote:

just a note you don't have to get hit or hit that hard relax, be loose.




Exactly my point -- many martial arts and martial artists take that attitude, "You don't have to get hit hard / make contact / bleed / hurt / whatever." No, you don't, but boxing's strength is that we choose to get hit hard. We choose to bleed regularly in practice, to sustain contusions and broken noses and eye lacerations.

Quote:

By the way thats not referering to anybody just a thought. I mean I may not have a clue good boxers may get beat up all the time sparring? I've seen two good boxer really go at each other and no one gets hurt just respect. Now a bloody nose or busted lip ain't getting hurt in contact sports IMHO. Sometimes it not even that.




Depends on the boxers, the weight, and what's at stake.

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#167493 - 06/20/06 04:32 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Exactly my point -- many martial arts and martial artists take that attitude, "You don't have to get hit hard / make contact / bleed / hurt / whatever." No, you don't, but boxing's strength is that we choose to get hit hard. We choose to bleed regularly in practice, to sustain contusions and broken noses and eye lacerations.




Bear in mind that this kind of training is not for everyone and not all boxers train this way. In fact, I've heard from a few of them that they try to avoid injuries during training and only tend to sustain them in tournaments and competition.

I think that if you're getting injured regularly in training, something's a bit off. Sure the minor injury here and there due to the contact involved is good, but excessive contact shouldn't be intentional unless it's in the tournament ring.

There's a difference between training well in a resisting environment and beating up your training partners.
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#167494 - 06/20/06 04:36 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Who is your boxing trainer/coach Joe Frazier? Even he didn't get hit all the time. You get hit but not soild/damaging contact, you learn to asorb and roll, bob, weave and move your feet.

I'm not going to debate how to box, you do what you been taught and have learned. But who punches the hardest without good defense is bad news. Did you see the Frazier Vs. Foreman fight!!! Anyway let me stop being funny.

You have you way of boxing and I have mines, let us agree to disgree. I still say a good boxer doesn't get hit much not as much as he hits his opponent. If he is really good he doesn't get hit much.

Now you got sluggers/bad defense and boxers/punchers two different type boxers. But lets not decompose. You think Boxing meanng getting hit, I think boxing means he misses and you hit him. We are separated by what we think defense IS. We both know and understand there are elements of both.

Agreed, In boxing you get hit, your defense decided how often, hard & to what degree. It also gives you those opening. This is where we part, I experience that you don't get hit hard unless you make a mistake or in over your head. Bad management decision or you are the mint for today.

Boxers hit hard, like Swimmers get wet be prepared or do something else.


Edited by Neko456 (06/20/06 05:04 PM)

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#167495 - 06/20/06 04:52 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Agreed, In boxing you get hit, your defense decided how often, hard & to what degree. This where we part, I experience that you don't get hit hard unless you make a mistake or in over your head.
Bad management decision or you are the mint for today.




I think what he was referring to is that in many other MA, you don't ever even experience getting hit and that this can be a bad thing if the first time you get hit is in a self defense situation. Being hit takes getting used to (even if only because you made a mistake and didn't dodge a hit), once you're used to it, it's not as big a deal anymore. If the first time you get hit hard is in a self defense situation, you could go into shock, this is why regular contact sparring is a plus point for boxing in terms of self defense.
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