FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 44 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
ksusanc, kellypnik123, leyinn, Ron_Cooley, businns
22902 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 11
trevek 6
cxt 6
JKogas 5
TaekwonDoFan 2
July
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/11/14 03:36 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
10 San Sik drills-Wing Chun's foundation
by futsaowingchun
06/30/14 11:20 AM
"Ip Man" and "Ip Man 2" the movies.
by TaekwonDoFan
06/30/14 11:02 AM
Iaido movements speed
by TooNice
04/14/14 01:47 PM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
12/30/13 08:32 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
04/16/12 02:48 PM
Recent Posts
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by cxt
47 minutes 11 seconds ago
centerline concepts
by Dobbersky
07/18/14 06:14 AM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/14/14 04:50 PM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:38 AM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:35 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
07/09/14 06:13 AM
Throwing
by JKogas
07/03/14 07:40 PM
10 San Sik drills-Wing Chun's foundation
by futsaowingchun
06/30/14 11:20 AM
"Ip Man" and "Ip Man 2" the movies.
by TaekwonDoFan
06/30/14 11:02 AM
Forget all that health stuff
by TaekwonDoFan
06/29/14 03:18 AM
Forum Stats
22902 Members
36 Forums
35563 Topics
432448 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >
Topic Options
#167416 - 07/14/05 02:49 PM Boxing for realistic self defense??
bushi541 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 33
Hey guys just wanted to know if you can still use boxing for realistisc self defense. My bro says its the only combat Olympic sport that can still be used for the street. I just wanted to know if any of you think it still is a good art to learn for some self defense skills??

Top
#167417 - 07/14/05 03:07 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Boxing is reputedly very effective on the street but I hear that Judo also shares that reputation (and is an Olympic sport). Boxing with a few modifications provides a simple basis of techniques which can be drawn upon easily under pressure. Of course it is not a complete system of defense, but very few martial arts can claim to be "complete". I'd say it's a good place to start training if you don't mind heavy contact and getting hit in the head. It's lacking in grappling techniques, weapon techniques/disarms and kicks/defense against low kicks. But this is mostly made up for by its excellent punches. Before the MT guys have a go at me, I'll mention that Muay Thai covers a better range of striking techniques in a heavy contact environment too, as do many other martial arts, depending on the school.

Btw, why does it need to be an Olympic sport in particular?


Edited by Leo_E_49 (07/14/05 03:08 PM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#167418 - 07/14/05 04:34 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
I think boxing is one of the core martial arts that someone interesting in self defense and sparring should learn. If you practice boxing for a year you would be light years ahead of someone who just practiced traditional or point sparring in karate. You have to be real careful with punches to the head as I can testify this can result in the provebial boxer's fracture. I now have a missing knuckle to prove this is true. You will not go wrong in learning the basics of boxing punches, defences, etc. It will be a good foundation for any fighter.

Top
#167419 - 07/14/05 04:59 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
most street fights i have been in or seen, have ended up on the ground. Boxing will be great for toe-to-toe/striking, but I would also suggest some form of ground work training
_________________________
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Top
#167420 - 07/14/05 08:16 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Leo_E_49]
bushi541 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 33
It doesn't need to be and Olympic sport I was just trying to say that since the Olympics have pretty much made some art less efective, and I don;t mean to smash tkd guys but yes I believe the olympics have made tkd less efective than it was before. I just really wanted to know what boxing has to offer in self defense and when is the right age to stop practicing boxing moves since it might be hard on your body.

Top
#167421 - 07/14/05 08:20 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
I should imagine fencing would be quite impressive as a means of self defence.
Snapping an ariel off a car and using it to whip an opponent has been very useful to me in the past.
That's kind of like fencing, innit?
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

Top
#167422 - 07/14/05 08:49 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Olympics has not made TKD less effective.Some dojo's that gear their art toward point tournaments and hand out blackbelts for money do and not just TKD does that.
Back to your original question: Yes,boxing would improve your self defense.Good footwork and handspeed is very important,but like has been said it doesn't cover all ranges.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#167423 - 07/15/05 01:20 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: SANCHIN31]
bushi541 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 33
The problem I have about boxing is yes the art doesn't cover all ranges. But which martial art does that hese days un less you mix up some Jujitsu, Muay Thai, and Boxing then bam!! You got your self an all range fighter. Boxing to me looks like it can really teach me how to dodge, duck, and hit hard with my fists. I guess I should mix it up a little though so that I can have some knowledge in how to engage in any situation I might face. Thanks guys for your posts it really helps keep em coming.

Top
#167424 - 07/15/05 07:04 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Intrepidinv1]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Sorry to be pedantic but boxing isn't strictly a martial art, it's a sport. That's not to say that it's not useful as a form of self defence, perhaps quite the opposite. And I agree that it would be a good asset to anyone who is keen to improve their self defence skills.
_________________________
Chanters

Top
#167425 - 07/15/05 09:17 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Chanters]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Regardless of opinion on where fights end up, they all begin stood up, and every unarmed attack i have witnessed or experienced has started with a punch or headbutt boxing guard is designed to deal with exactly these weapons. Add to that the fact that your training will involve lots of hard sparring,and the learning of footwork and sharp accurate punching and you have a very good foundation for self defense.
Examples always tell more about the individual than the methods used, but Lenny McClean, one of the most feared and respected underworld enforcers, renknowned for his unarmed fighting ability, was a boxer by style. The only 'ground game' he studied were the victims of his left hook lying on it.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#167426 - 07/15/05 09:20 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The advamntage of boxing is that it teaches punches in bunches from where your hands are, foot work and head movement is also a plus. But you don't want to get stuck at boxing range you need to be able to at least defense at the different ranges. Then practice to attack from the various ranges. A lot of boxer become inactive, or will duck to try body shots while in a clinch, which can be a bad move in the street or continuous sparring now days.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167427 - 07/15/05 12:54 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Cord]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Add to that the fact that your training will involve lots of hard sparring,and the learning of footwork and sharp accurate punching and you have a very good foundation for self defense.

I'm not sure I did the quote right but Cord hit the nail on the head. The age thing is something you have to work out on your own. I boxed and kickboxed in my younger years. I'm 42 now and I don't care for the heavy contact as much. The guys are spar with now are pretty considerate about contact, it's a safety thing. We hall have jobs and don't need to be injured.

Top
#167428 - 07/15/05 05:46 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Intrepidinv1]
bushi541 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 33
I guess the age thing doesn't matter as long as you keep up with training and stay healthy then you can keep on going at it. I mean look at Joe Lewis the guy can still do all that full contact kick boxing and karate another example is Dan Inosanto and the greatest example is Mas Oyama the guy was still going on after his 60's. So I guess it's a matter of how fit and hard your train and some good genes.

Top
#167429 - 07/18/05 12:48 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
How many of us do this for a living full time and all the time. These Masters Oyama, Joe, Sargent and Dan do or did (In the case of Mstr O) this for a living even when I taught full time I had a side job that I used to support the business and my family until things smooth out.

If you could train and teach 24-7 U would and could stay in that kind of shape. But who can train that way, even as a dojo owner your accounting, book keeping, staff training and class lesson plans take up 3/4 of your time. So you still have to find time to workout at your level.

Travelling seminar Instructor is the way to Go.


Edited by Neko456 (07/18/05 12:49 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167430 - 02/13/06 07:42 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
Commandersackman Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 4
Loc: NSW aus
As far as boxing being the only street effective olympic combat sport, id have to dissagree while boxing is great wrestling could also help with a situation on the street over 50% of street fights end up on the ground so knowing how to grapple may come in useful, you could even mix wrestling and boxing then have yourself some olympic street fighter or you could just take submission fighting or pankration classes and yes they pretty much cover everything about unarmed combat.
_________________________
COMMANDER SACKMAN

Top
#167431 - 02/14/06 12:56 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Boxing can be very effective on the street against the average street holigan. But it lack in range in a serious encounter vs. a harden street fighter or wrestler.

Boxing and wrestlering or MA is a good mixture, its my opinion that boxers & MA are better finishers then wrestlers, but it doesn't take a wrestler long to bc a finisher if he knows to practice it.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167432 - 02/14/06 10:32 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Quote:

Boxing can be very effective on the street against the average street holigan. But it lack in range in a serious encounter vs. a harden street fighter or wrestler.





Can you please explain more what you mean about it lacking in range? Boxers learn to punch in all ranges. Jabs and cross for long range, hooks and overhands for mid range and uppercuts in very close range.

Top
#167433 - 02/15/06 12:39 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Glockmeister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'm sure he means the different fighting ranges. Standup,close in(clinch,grappling),and ground.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#167434 - 02/15/06 03:08 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Commandersackman]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
I keep struggling with comments in general about grappling and wrestling in a real fight situation. Personally I wouldn't want to be tangled up on the floor with an attacker trying to get him in a hold or a lock. What happens after that when you want to get up and escape? How can you prevent him from attacking again whilst you're trying to get up and make your escape? What happens if he's got friend's close by ready to step in? I'm not saying I don't think it's a good form of self defence but I just struggle to get my head around the thought of being on the floor on top of my attacker trying to get him into holds and locks. Maybe I'm getting hold of the wrong end of the stick.

I'd also agree that boxing and judo, both olympic sports, can be very useful tools in the street. My partner used his judo experience to keep a few lads from beating him and his mates outside a pubs a few years ago.
_________________________
Chanters

Top
#167435 - 02/15/06 03:56 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Chanters]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Chanters, i agree with you in a sense, no one wants to be rolling around on the floor fighting outside a pub, but on the other hand, no one should want to be stood slugging it out outside a pub either. Any form of fighting is far less preferable to a peaceful existence.
The point about ground work is that if some idiot attacks you, coming in hard and swinging, and you are still upright as his advance is stopped by getting up close to you, there is a strong chance that he will grab/push/clinch up with you. From here, as you attempt to push him away/free yourself, or he continues to try and overpower you, there is a strong possibility of you falling over. It does happen. Now its happened you want to get up, but he wont let you, what do you do?
Ground fighting is not about making a choice to be there, its about being able to cope when it happens, its also about becoming better at keeping your balance when people attempt to put you on the ground, so works to help keep you upright.
If there was real choice in a true SD situation, then there would be neither stand up or ground fighting, just a nice chat to diffuse the problem.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#167436 - 02/15/06 03:58 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Cord]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Chanters, i agree with you in a sense, no one wants to be rolling around on the floor fighting outside a pub, but on the other hand, no one should want to be stood slugging it out outside a pub either. Any form of fighting is far less preferable to a peaceful existence.
The point about ground work is that if some idiot attacks you, coming in hard and swinging, and you are still upright as his advance is stopped by getting up close to you, there is a strong chance that he will grab/push/clinch up with you. From here, as you attempt to push him away/free yourself, or he continues to try and overpower you, there is a strong possibility of you falling over. It does happen. Now its happened you want to get up, but he wont let you, what do you do?
Ground fighting is not about making a choice to be there, its about being able to cope when it happens, its also about becoming better at keeping your balance when people attempt to put you on the ground, so works to help keep you upright.
If there was real choice in a true SD situation, then there would be neither stand up or ground fighting, just a nice chat to diffuse the problem.




Can't add much to that!!! +1
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#167437 - 02/15/06 06:42 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Cord]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Certain things have become more clearer now. Thanks Cord!
_________________________
Chanters

Top
#167438 - 02/15/06 09:56 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Glockmeister]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I'm sure he means the different fighting ranges. Standup,close in(clinch,grappling),and ground.

Thats almost what I mean boxers handle themself ok in the mid-clinch, but once wraped up or on the ground most are confused and drowned like most pure strikers (so I'm not just cutting on boxers, just an observation most MA teach some counters). I've seen some boxers on street give some awesome whippings, but I've also seen some kicked in knee and grion or taken down and got the pi$$ whipped out them. Thats what I mean they lack in ranges. Boxing is a mid-range art IMO.

Of course in a perfect world I agree with Chanters and Cord.
Here birds chripping and violins playing.


Edited by Neko456 (02/15/06 09:57 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167439 - 02/15/06 12:00 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
There's nothing stopping someone who know's how to box from kicking and using their elbow's and knees etc in a real fight. I'm not trained to strike but I'd still kick, punch and knee if I had to!
_________________________
Chanters

Top
#167440 - 02/15/06 12:32 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Chanters]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I've seen untrained and trained people try new stuff in a real fight, its not the best time to try something new unless he's wide open. In a real fight its best to fight with your tried and true techniques, IMHO.

You are right I've seen a many people try to use kicks on the street miss, slip or be caught and there on their behind and getting punched like a volley ball or kicked like a foot ball. In close clinching a guy thats not use to using elbow and knees against a guy that trains that way, good night sweet charlotte. Theres not that much room for a mistake. The trained person can block and counter and the untrained thinks he CAN, whose got the odds???? bad time to test this idea.

But you are right anybody can try new stuff in a fight, if they want to. But I would never, why take a chance. It takes a lot of training to get a boxer to give up his base, but if a guys wide open it could work.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167441 - 02/17/06 06:53 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

But you are right anybody can try new stuff in a fight, if they want to. But I would never, why take a chance.




So are you saying because you've never trained to do a certain thing you'd NEVER try it out if attacked? What if you're in a situation where you're not in a position to execute a technique? Would you just stand there and take a beating because your techniques couldn't be carried out? I've never trained in eye gouging etc and I doubt many people do, but it's still something I'd use if pushed to. I've never trained in throwing a pint glass before but I'd use it if it was justified, (i.e keeping distance between the attacker and myself). Just because I haven't been trained in certain types of defence, doesn't mean you should rule out using them if you run out of options.
_________________________
Chanters

Top
#167442 - 02/17/06 12:00 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Chanters]
Little Dragon Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 43
You're very right Chanters.Around last year I went with a friend to pick up his kid brother from his school, I saw two tall kids arguing, and suddenly one of them turned quickly, and just gave him a spinning back kick. It was so quick and effective that you would think this kid was a skilled MA master. I asked that kid if he trained in martial arts, or any other fighting art, he said he didn't he had just seen it in a movie, and thought it was a pretty cool move.

Little Dragon

-The expert in anything was once a begginer

Top
#167443 - 02/18/06 02:49 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Chanters]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Circumstances will cause you to respond with makeshift methods we try to teach & use them in class so you look to use and deter them. Even so to finish the encounter you continue with trained techniques. I'm glad you can improvises on the fly and trust that it will work. But training in these techniques helps your success.

Dragon.. If not why train at all why not just watch TV, movies and read books.

Chanter - I'm not a really good Aikido person (as you are, I'm assumimg) while attempting to use these taught techniques on the street to make an arrest. I had to coach the person into the lock, by striking then they wanted to fall into the lock more peacefully. My point is that if I was better at Aikido/Jujistsu techniques back then I would have had to hit them less. By using (as I learned later) bumps, pushes or strikes to the hip or weigh shifting, works and looks better so far as PR is concern. But a shin kick in boots & a sweep, or a scraping elbow to the ribs or palm to solar plex or chin worked back then. But noticed I improvised with techniques that I knew worked (The locks worked in class). I also learned that serious Aiki-Jujitsu people do strike, I was taught that the just using the locks would work.

Dragon ...Thats the difference in a Trained MA and a guy that watches TV or Movie, he probably couldn't do that again and it won't work against an alert aggressive opponent. Its called Luck. A trained person can repeat the technique, until you counter it, then counter your counter.

Chanter - We spar to block and deliever eyes gouges (really eye flicks and sweeps much faster) in combinations with leg kicks attacking the knee or being swepted and a guy tries to eye gouge, its in at least two of our traditional Kiso-kumite at 3rd kyu Brown and Nidan. We spar in goggles when practicing for this at a certain level, but not in the Kiso its trained traditionaly bare.
I swear if you train at it you are better at it. I'm trying to be funny don't take offense. Please.


Edited by Neko456 (02/18/06 07:48 PM)

Top
#167444 - 02/18/06 03:47 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Chanters]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Sorry to be pedantic but boxing isn't strictly a martial art, it's a sport.




Sorry if this has already been stated....BUT:

Boxing is a "sport" so long as someone intends on "being 'sportive'" about it.

Ever heard of "dirty" boxing?

Ever heard of boxing as a "delivery system" (art) as opposed to "just" a "ring sport"?

The only thing about boxing being a sport is if and when it is being competed as one. If and when a skilled boxer knocks someone unconscious in a street fight and then chooses to run over him with his car - is THAT still being "sportive"?

Chanters wrote:

Quote:

That's not to say that it's not useful as a form of self defence, perhaps quite the opposite. And I agree that it would be a good asset to anyone who is keen to improve their self defence skills.




Right on brother (or sister.... )

The whole boxing and wrestling being "sport" is somewhat tired don't you think? I mean, if you're training those arts strictly for sportive strategies, that's one thing. If you're training them with open eyes toward a street situation is another.

Either way, the skillsets created by the sheer practice is where the value lies. When one has skill in their delivery systems, you can then improvise strategy. But you CAN'T improvise skill.

Situations change, but delivery systems remain constant.


-John

Top
#167445 - 02/18/06 03:52 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Excellent John. If I had anything to add to the topic it would be that boxing, along with any other style, can be combat effective if trained with that goal in mind. And also not to rely on just on system of delivery. If you train for combat purpose than you must train all levels of contact. Not just Punching and not Just wrestling.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#167446 - 02/18/06 08:04 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Chen Zen]
Lord_Morningstar Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/05
Posts: 36
Because it includes a lot of stuff like contact sparring and bag work, I imagine boxing would be pretty effective. Ditto through its simplicity Ė a boxer would be less likely to get Ďtongue-tiedí working out what to do in a fight. I do Hapkido, and my school incorporates a bit of kickboxing and Muay Thai for clinch and close-in striking work. Iíd match a boxer against someone who had spent their time purely doing katas or non-contact point sparring any day.

Of course, to be really effective, youíd need to incorporate some grappling, kicking and groundfighting as well. Still, Iíd say that boxing is a good place to start and Iíd be very reluctant to go up against someone who had trained extensively in both kickboxing and wrestling.

As to the whole ground vs non-ground thing Ė

In my opinion, anyone who actually wants to take a street fight to the ground has rocks in their head. Youíre liable to break something hitting the sidewalk, land on something sharp (eg Ė broken glass), you loose your visibility, youíll have no chance if your opponent produces a knife, anyone can come along and take a free shot while youíre tied up, and you can no longer run away. That being said, itís worth knowing how to fight on the ground in case you end up there. However, your first objective in any street groundfight should be regaining your feet IMHO.

Top
#167447 - 02/18/06 09:21 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Lord_Morningstar]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Cord, JKogas, and Lord Morningstar, all very good posts.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#167448 - 02/18/06 09:31 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Lord_Morningstar]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Iíd match a boxer against someone who had spent their time purely doing katas or non-contact point sparring any day.
Are there still any of those.

But I'd give a good boxer against even K-1 competitors or Kyoshin-kia fighter for 1 round. If they don't take his legs out.

But in the streets unless a boxer has other training hes at a disadvanged becauses their no rules. If cross trained you got a tough mister.

Like you I think its bad news to start out or want to fight on the grounds it just too risking. You can have self injury or injuries during the dance. Like you I believe ground work should be done if you got to and quickly get back to your feet. But I'll add if U feel out matched standing you might as well try something else. Safest thing is to throw/take down, but don't follow him to the ground. Stand and deliver.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167449 - 02/19/06 12:04 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
greghenley Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 4

I wonder who you feel would win a boxing bout or a street fight between these two. Neither are too trained. How much would strength figure into it and who appears stronger?

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/greghenley/detail?.dir=c383&.dnm=367e.jpg&.src=ph

-Greg

Top
#167450 - 02/19/06 08:51 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Quote:





But in the streets unless a boxer has other training hes at a disadvanged becauses their no rules.





I disagree. Despite the fact that there are no rules. Most trained boxers will land several very fast, very strong blows long before a so called "street fighter" will even realize how much trouble he is in. Most people who fight in the streets are not very good fighters to start with. Dealing with a trained boxer is often more than a street punk can handle unless they start off with a weapon out and in play before the fight begins. Or if they manage to take the opponent to the ground first. Problem with this is, unless the guy is a trained grappler, he probably won't do much more than some lame attempt to plow into the guy and takle him, yet, lacking any strategy, may have ahard time keeping him there.

Top
#167451 - 02/19/06 09:57 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Glockmeister]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Glockmeister wrote:

Quote:

....Despite the fact that there are no rules. Most trained boxers will land several very fast, very strong blows long before a so called "street fighter" will even realize how much trouble he is in. Most people who fight in the streets are not very good fighters to start with.





That's an excellent point made here. Most of the so-called "street fighters" don't have one TENTH of the discipline, toughness, conditioning, timing and other attributes that a "worthy" boxer has.

Glockmeister wrote:

Quote:

Dealing with a trained boxer is often more than a street punk can handle unless they start off with a weapon out and in play before the fight begins. Or if they manage to take the opponent to the ground first. Problem with this is, unless the guy is a trained grappler, he probably won't do much more than some lame attempt to plow into the guy and takle him, yet, lacking any strategy, may have ahard time keeping him there.




More excellent points. Most people who aren't trained (good) grapplers aren't usually skilled at takedowns or, even if they DO manage to take someone down, usually can't KEEP them there for very long - unless of course there is a HUGE weight disparity. Fighting on the ground requires specilized training to be any good at it in most cases. That of course implies a certain amount of discipline as well.

There are always exceptions to the rule. But I am of the opinion that for the most part, people who engage in "street fighting" (and it isn't always in the street, especially here in the US) aren't extremely disciplined people to start with. This of course isn't to say that they aren't dangerous either. Anyone can carry a weapon, etc. But this isn't about that. It's about boxing being an effective method of self protection. That I believe in completely and would add that if you AREN'T using the delivery system of boxing, that you are short-changing yourselves in your training.

-John

Top
#167452 - 02/19/06 12:36 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
prescience Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 2
I think boxing is good for real self defense becauce you lear how to endure pain and develope quick hands and feet as far as tkd not being effective it is not the olympics fault but instead the fact that instead of people beaing maid to earn there rank in tkd it is often an instrouctor gives them there rank with out them having earned it and proper hard and intense training

Top
#167453 - 02/19/06 10:15 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Glockmeister]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Most trained boxers will land several very fast, very strong blows long before a so called "street fighter" will even realize how much trouble he is in.

Maybe, Maybe not its like us/me saying I/we can kick someone in balls everytime I/we fight. You can never say he will always be able to hit someone. Trained Odds are in his favor, if the guy don't know he's a boxer. If he knows he'd be crazy to trade blows. Beware of the diving tackle or body slam.

There are a lot different levels of street fighters just as there are boxers some are very skilled and some are just drunks or weekend warriors.

I define a streetfighter as anybody that has fought in the street, win or lose more then 5 r more times. Skilled or no skill or formal trained or street trained. On the Job or off the job.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167454 - 02/20/06 03:16 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

I'm not a really good Aikido person (as you are, I'm assumimg) while attempting to use these taught techniques on the street to make an arrest. I had to coach the person into the lock, by striking then they wanted to fall into the lock more peacefully. My point is that if I was better at Aikido/Jujistsu techniques back then I would have had to hit them less.




At the dojo's I train at, we are encouraged to strike sometimes, but instead of intending to cause injury, we use strikes to take balance and disrupt the opponents mind. What you did was fine and at the end of the day it worked!

Quote:

I swear if you train at it you are better at it. I'm trying to be funny don't take offense. Please.



Amen! And don't worry Neko, I don't take offence!
_________________________
Chanters

Top
#167455 - 02/20/06 05:50 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I define a streetfighter as anybody that has fought in the street, win or lose more then 5 r more times.




That would make practicaly everyone who has ever attended school a 'streetfighter'.

'Streetfighting' is merely the act of physical aggression with the intent to harm someone. Thats it. It can happen in a bar, in a street, in a home, in a jacuzzi, anywhere. All it takes is for a person to attack, and the victim to retaliate- one 'streetfight' on a plate. If an aggressor does this numerous times, they dont earn the title 'streetfighter', they earn the terms 'aggressive', 'violent', 'criminal' and 'stupid'. If the victim has this happen numerous times, then they earn either the term 'unlucky' or 'careless', or possibly both.

Lets not romanticise this issue by the bestowing of a title on violent idiots.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#167456 - 02/20/06 07:57 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Cord]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Lets not romanticise this issue by the bestowing of a title on violent idiots.





That's just what is happening and has ALWAYS happened. People LOVE to romanticize "the street". It's partly (or mostly) Hollywood's fault. People buy into action movies and "chop sockey" flicks.


-John

Top
#167457 - 02/20/06 09:25 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Cord]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Agreed. I have been in more than 5 fights in my life and i definately don't refer to myself as a "street fighter" I don't even like the term. It mnakes me think of a thug, a criminal, or a terrorist, or a hot headed punk.

Top
#167458 - 02/21/06 02:55 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Glockmeister]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agreed you can call yourself whatever you want. But by standers watching or witnessing these encounters will define you as a streetfighter. Thats the guy that whipped the crap out of this guy at such and such place/bar, he's a hell of a streetfighter. Or he fought this guy ..., and took a hell of a beaten he is a tough a$$ streetfighter.

If you indulges or entrapped in these type fights you are titled by association with these idoits and violent guys.
Such is life, you don't whip the crap out a guy even with Aikido (One of the most gentle arts ) and not be labled a streetfighter.

I've never heard any one say on the street, My what great control and techinque that up right citizen performed on that ruffin, he broke his arm in two places. What a gentlmen and knight of a guy. Whats heard is damn did you see the way that guy broke that fools arm. Man I'd hate to mess with him in a dark alley, hell of a streetfighter. Theres no bowing on the streets.

As for the 1-5 fights r more label, some people have never pass a blow or tasted their own blood in a fight. These people I'd say they don't have any streetfighting experince. Its like changing a diaper once you've done it you might get crap on your hands, you've been there done that. Just like there are some cops that go their career and never fired their gun on duty or pointed it at a suspect. They are still policemans, probably pretty well trained. These titles are just preceptions not self earned titles of pride & honor.


Edited by Neko456 (02/21/06 02:56 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167459 - 02/21/06 03:02 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
What was the topic?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#167460 - 02/21/06 04:39 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: BrianS]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Boxing relies on making punches as effective, hard and well timed as possible. Footwork, good strike guard, and spacial control are drilled heavily. Countering attack and working off the backfoot are also worked at to become natural responses. The training also leads to regular experience of being hit with full or near full force.

I fail to see how anyone in their right mind could see such a skillset as anything but effective in a physical altercation.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#167461 - 02/21/06 05:13 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Cord]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I fail to see how anyone in their right mind could see such a skillset as anything but effective in a physical altercation.




I totally agree!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#167462 - 02/21/06 07:30 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: BrianS]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:


Quote:


Quote:

I fail to see how anyone in their right mind could see such a skillset as anything but effective in a physical altercation.





I totally agree!!




I'll second that!
_________________________
Chanters

Top
#167463 - 02/24/06 01:22 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Cord]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree but there are boxers and then there people that try to box at any gym. Just like there are at most any MA's gyms/dojos theres different level of skills. Some will never be good fighters or fighters period even with a vigorous training program thats built around combat. Its hard to develop heart and tenacity if it ain't there.

I agree boxing is an effective skill in self defense. For the average person (meaning the average person that can apply the skill, some people can't, this is with any MA).


Edited by Neko456 (02/24/06 01:53 PM)

Top
#167464 - 03/24/06 07:00 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
c_maj7th Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/03
Posts: 127
Loc: Indiana
If you have to defend yourself against a high level boxer your in deep do-do. You better take it to the ground fast.
Box a wrestler,wrestle a boxer.

Top
#167465 - 03/26/06 01:18 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: c_maj7th]
BeastInTheGarden Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 6
Perhaps I haven't seen enough, maybe I'm not old enough, or maybe I'm just weird, but i think boxing is good form of self defense compar4d to something like Karate (too ritualistic if you ask me, but i'm crazy). My old man has no training except for 3 older brothers and a Navy man for a father. He got the tar smacked out of him on a regular basis, but he's a tough man now. He has no professional level of training and he's beaten men with golden gloves in their ring. I've seen him bust a man's face apart in 2 hits, knock a guy sliding across the floor, breaking his cheek bone (and his knuckle), as well as putting down a blackbelt in karate with ease. Now not everyone is a good natural fighter, but i'd have to say my old man is.

Pushing out everyone's rants about a 'street fighter' or some ignorant hooligan, i'd have to say Boxing is a good form, but you are too focused and neglect the rest. Cross training is the best solution. Naturally, my father fights like he was trained in Muy Thai. My Sifu was a cage fighter, and fairly successful at it as well. I belief he has some sort of issue that his veins are too small so he has problems with internal bleeding and he had to quit...but i think that was the case...i'm not sure. He has 'westernized' muy thai in a sense that he has incorperated boxing strikes into it. He also focuses on Brazilian Jujutsu...and is pretty good. I would have to say, look at the ultimate fighting championship in 93. Royce Gracie took out that boxer like nothing simply because he panicked. A boxer on the ground against a ground fighter is not a good idea.

as it's been stated before, boxing is good for one part, but it's not the best for the rest of the aspects.

Top
#167466 - 05/11/06 12:11 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Chanters]
AikiGhost Offline
Member

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 85
Loc: UK
Quote:

Sorry to be pedantic but boxing isn't strictly a martial art, it's a sport.




Well as far as I know both boxing and wrestling are martial arts, and they certainly originated from western martial schools. I think its just an eastern bias in TMA that tries to classify boxing and wrestling as "Only Sports".

As to the main question, boxing is something anyone who is serious about self defence should have a good look into. Its very effective very quickly. After 6 months you should be able to give 90% of non boxers a run for their money in sparring. At the end of the day a few well placed punches gives you time to "Get the hell outta dodge".


Edited by AikiGhost (05/11/06 12:22 PM)
_________________________
AikiGhost 4 years MMA Submission Wrestling / MMA (ongoing)

Top
#167467 - 05/11/06 12:18 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: c_maj7th]
AikiGhost Offline
Member

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 85
Loc: UK
Quote:

If you have to defend yourself against a high level boxer your in deep do-do. You better take it to the ground fast.
Box a wrestler,wrestle a boxer.




And if you meet a shootfighter youre really buggered
_________________________
AikiGhost 4 years MMA Submission Wrestling / MMA (ongoing)

Top
#167468 - 06/16/06 07:32 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Intrepidinv1]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95



Trad karate teaches(or it should teach) how to punch correctly, and the exercises to aid punching.

This is training is in part to limit as much as poss damage to the hands if done correctly and not to the extreme.

I wouldnít say that boxing methods as opposed to trad methods are any better or make a person light years ahead(It depends how a person trains)

Just a point here how would you say that all trad karate methods and boxing methods differ?apart from the glove aspect?


I should imagine like most of my gloved boxer friends a person who only trains gloved might have caught some one or som ething with the wrong knuckle ?

Because maybe they rely to much on soft bags and gloves?
No press ups on the knuckles or hand conditioning such as on bags or maki wari?

Peoples heads can be use full defences against un skilled bare knuckle punchers.

I mean if in a scenario a person who only trained gloved were to be attacked and then to defend his or herself ? All of a sudden this person has one or two broken hands??

Hang on attacker can we stop?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2fBj1BUA3A&mode=suggested&search=

This isnít a boxing vidio how ever might indicate how things can go wrong in any fight.
.


Top
#167469 - 06/16/06 07:44 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Cord]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95




A boxer wears gloves and unles he is a bare knuckle boxer correctly trained the hands might some how get demolished, as in by e bye knuckles. Hello swollen hands..

Ok the training aspect is good but tell me what is the difference between some trad martial artists and some
boxers?

note I said some


Trad guys wear gloves if sparring but they can also ( or they should ) do it minus gloves.



Te- where it was said karate was to have partly originated from was a form of boxing.Unless I got my history wrong?


Top
#167470 - 06/16/06 07:46 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Lord_Morningstar]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
Which boxer?

I know people who train karate who have never had a street fight who are good , very good


Top
#167471 - 06/16/06 07:55 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: adaca]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
I aint knocking boxing, its a good sport. I boxed myself for a while, but get off the trad karate guys backs huh?
Which trad guys are some of you guys refering to?


Top
#167472 - 06/16/06 09:42 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: adaca]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I think we all agree that traditional Karate is as effective as Boxing in terms of the techniques. What boxing excels in, however, is the method of training. Boxers train from early on in the ring, you start out sparring with other people at full contact relatively early on. This leads to a good understanding of how to apply the techniques under pressure and how they can be applied against a fully resisting opponent. Many Karate schools do not allow full-contact sparring and therefore many of their students do not know how to apply the techniques against someone who is fighting them without pulling punches. A lot of traditional Karateka do not even know what it feels like to really be hit, or knocked out. (I know Kyokushin Karate does have full contact sparring, so these guys have my respect in terms of their ability to apply their techniques as much as boxers do) If you train Karate in the same way as most boxers train boxing, your techniques will certainly be as effective against resisting opponents.

There is nothing wrong with training Kata, punching the air and doing light contact sparring but if you want to train for an environment where people don't pull their punches, you can't afford to pull your punches during your training.

Furthermore, there is a common trend amongst boxers to train their bodies more than in traditional MA. Many more boxers I've seen go to the gym and build up muscle, this is a practice which should also be trained in all MA, but unfortunately usually isn't.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/16/06 09:46 AM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#167473 - 06/16/06 12:40 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: adaca]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
One of the main difference in boxing and trad karate is continuation and flow. Now there isn't much difference in Real Karate and boxing except range and intent. But most Karate classes you are taught to flow and stop, and flow and stop. The intent of sparring is different Karate unless at the higher level is to score points, kos in karate are coinstindental, boxing is to score a knock out.

Now in Real Karate the intent, if you have to fight is to maim (pending the intensity) which might mean an attack on a ground, kneeling or rising opponent. Boxing highest level is the to K/O safely and halt when clinched and cover when confused.

In short Real Karate is not a sport so its not limited by rules.

Boxing is a sport it can be useful in a self defense arena but it is limited by rules, range and training in these rules.

Boxing value to a MA is full contact, fittness, flow and acceptance of contact. My 2 cent.

I agree with Leo-e-49.


Edited by Neko456 (06/16/06 01:02 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167474 - 06/16/06 02:34 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Sirkicksalot Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/16/06
Posts: 1
My brother is a Middleweight Golden Gloves Champ and he has proven many times on the street that a straight up Boxer can easily defend himself. Me being a 3rd degree blackbelt, I like to tell him boxing is lame, but truthfully, a highly trained boxer has an amazing advantage in a street fight against a "normal Attacker

Top
#167475 - 06/16/06 02:53 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Quote:




Boxing is a sport it can be useful in a self defense arena but it is limited by rules, range and training in these rules.
.




How in the street is it limited by rules? A boxer can only do certain things in the ring, that doesn't mean he can't resort to other tactics besides his boxing ina street fight. I am always amazed by people who say that people trained in "sport MA's" are somehow ata disadvantage because they have rules to their matches. Yes, there are rules in the ring, but when you are a boxer and not in the ring, you are free to improvise and add to the skills you already have, including using "foul tactics" just as much as a karate practitioner or anybody else.

Top
#167476 - 06/16/06 05:14 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Glockmeister]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Sirkickslot - Thats where we are different I also hold high rank in a trad art, but I admire and understand boxing. Its strength and weakness, every system have them. My brother was a pro boxer now a journeyman still thinking he can. Thats another story I've seen boxer destroy people on the street quickly, with clean boxing and street boxing. But I've also seen them taking out their element and beaten down. I've seen them quit, when a guy kick him in the knee. A boxer with a future not going to let you mess up his wheels/legs. Your brother probably is a good street fighter no doubt.

Glockmaster
We fight how we train, if they train it they will do it. I'm not saying you can't take boxing and build on it. But what I am saying you grab both arms of a boxer and he will go into a clinch or cover up. Perfect for being sweept off his feet.

I know how powerful, fast and tough they are but if they just come out of a boxing gym they are limited by the range they know of fighting. Most if they don't have a street back ground may let an opponent get back up. Or heiastant to continue to attack down opponent. Because they are comfortable standing.

Boxing is awesome sweet science. But its rules limits it effectiveness at all ranges is all I'm saying. In its range its a T-Rex, but out of its range its a Shark on dry land.

If you make it street orintiated its an awesome addition. But I stand by you fight how you train, unless you've trained/fought in other things.


Edited by Neko456 (06/16/06 05:21 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167477 - 06/16/06 06:30 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I would still say that even boxing on its own, if trained properly, would be formidable in the street. Primarily because of the contact level and the usually high level of fitness and strength of many boxing students. I would also agree however that if anyone who is good at grappling or knee kicking is involved, a boxers chances decrease significantly.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/16/06 06:31 PM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#167478 - 06/17/06 09:33 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Leo_E_49]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I think (as most everyone should know by now), that it is the core skill that boxing training provides that is the important aspect. Forget the "sport" of boxing. You can use "dirty boxing" if you want to.

It's that "engine" or delivery system that is the essential element that I believe a person shouldn't be without. Hell, add your kicks, elbows, eye gouging, hairpulling or whatever else you guys like to do (fight like girls, lol). Just don't be without that ability to intuitively counter-punch or that ability to slip shots and be evasive while returning your own.


-John

Top
#167479 - 06/17/06 04:55 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: JKogas]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Of course, something noone seems to have mentioned is that boxing is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Traditional Martial Arts in terms of conditioning - weights, endurance, power, the boxing world has that stuff down to an art. The TMA community could learn a lot by swallowing it's pride, forgetting the 10,000 pushups and standing in horse stance for 3 days, and start training with some boxers.
_________________________
My Workout Log

Top
#167480 - 06/17/06 09:29 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: TimBlack]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Iíll meet you half way on that. My father was a golden gloves boxer from back in the day, his nose covered a good bit of his face and he had pretty mangled ear. Tough cookies those men.

But Iíll say most modern TMA are way behind boxers in terms of conditioing but not all many train to fight full contact. Donít forget the Kyokoshin and Ashihara guyís theyíre a hard-core bunch and train for the ring. I think most boxers would cringe at the 100-man kumite.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

Top
#167481 - 06/18/06 06:45 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: bushi541]
h2whoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Fiji
Quote:

Hey guys just wanted to know if you can still use boxing for realistisc self defense. My bro says its the only combat Olympic sport that can still be used for the street. I just wanted to know if any of you think it still is a good art to learn for some self defense skills??




Having boxed for a long time, and taken part in various other arts. I can say that for me, boxing is the first thing I turn to, it has its strengths...no one hits harder or has more effective and "clean" punches.

It does have a down side, boxers are terrible in the guard compared to ther arts...they try to catch punches on the gloves in the ring and that transfers onto the street.

Another weakness is that it doesnt utilise all ranges of fighting, like kicking range, grappling range etc. But if its a quick explosive show stooper you want, boxing will give you many hay makers...it then depends on you, and how well you know your art....if you are a good boxer and your instincts and the science behind it is sound, you shouldnt have a problem

_________________________
No matter how fashionable it is on Krypton, I will not wear my underwear on the outside of my Gi!!

Top
#167482 - 06/18/06 06:13 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
But what I am saying you grab both arms of a boxer and he will go into a clinch or cover up. Perfect for being sweept off his feet.




I would like to see someone just grab a boxer's arms.

Top
#167483 - 06/19/06 11:26 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: TimBlack]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
Here is my point.

Boxing with gloves is one of the best sports for conditioning agreed.

But my point is minus gloves ? and no hand conditioning?

Then its cringe time. Looking at some martial arts on some of the vidios I can understand about the constant assumptions.

I dont think all MA's train the same.They train for different reasons

If they want to train doing just kata and kumite then so be it

But some MA's are just as fit as most competing boxers are or should be.

Im not sure who some of these guy's are in with Bas rutten but one thing that occurs to me is it would seem that they havent got hand conditioning or seemingly any kind of punching skills

They havent got the confidence to punch baz rutten

Had they perhaps this fight would have been a different story.

My point is in a bare knuckle fight (as in some on this vidio) need bare knuckle tactics.

I presume these are palm heel strikes by baz rutten?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XVY5ciakysI&search=%20karate%20



Top
#167484 - 06/19/06 11:27 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Glockmeister]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
Providing the boxer isnt hitting the opponent yeah

Top
#167485 - 06/19/06 07:33 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: adaca]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
adaca wrote:
Quote:

Here is my point.

Boxing with gloves is one of the best sports for conditioning agreed.

But my point is minus gloves ?





You still have the attributes developed through the practice. You still have great footwork and evasive movement. You still have great defense. Defense is more important than offense in my opinion.


Quote:


and no hand conditioning?




What do you mean by hand conditioning? Like, Iron Palm training or something? That really only screws up the structure of the hand in the long run anyway. Itís easier just to not hit with the hands. People who train boxing can use their elbows and knees to hit with. One elbow is worth about 4 or 5 punches anyway.


Quote:

I dont thk all MA's train the same.They train for different reasons

If they want to train doing just kata and kumite then so be it

But some MA's are just as fit as most competing boxers are or should be.




I donít anyone is arguing that martial artists canít be in shape. Its just that boxers are often in the gym for hours and hours. Anyone, regardless of style who is willing to put in the time can get into decent shape. Itís not limited to boxers of course. But, nearly ALL boxers are in great shape. The same canít be said for martial artists.

Quote:


Im not sure who some of these guy's are in with Bas rutten but one thing that occurs to me is it would seem that they havent got hand conditioning or seemingly any kind of punching skills

They havent got the confidence to punch baz rutten

Had they perhaps this fight would have been a different story.

My point is in a bare knuckle fight (as in some on this vidio) need bare knuckle tactics.

I presume these are palm heel strikes by baz rutten?






Oh, thatís pancrase. What you were watching were ďworkedĒ fights (fakes) used in the Pancrase Hybrid Wrestling fights. I wouldnít pay a great deal of attention to those.


-John

Top
#167486 - 06/20/06 12:31 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: JKogas]
heavygloves Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 5
I'm new to this forum, about three years of boxing, looking to expand my MA skills. I'm currently 2-1 as a USA Boxing Master's Division Heavyweight. I am a bit hesitant to make my first post on this site on such a contentious issue, but I found this forum doing a search to convince my sister to let my nephew take up boxing as "self defense."

I can't stress enough what happens to your mind and your body when a trained boxer connects with a clean, solid cross or hook. If you haven't been hit that hard under the stress of combat, you need to be to really understand what I'm talkig about. But I'll try to explain it. The first time it happened to me, my body went crazy -- panic, cold sweat, my knees buckled, I saw stars. I ended up on my knees with dry heaves. And that was a bodyblow -- a shovel hook to the solar plexus. The only thing that's happened to me in my life that I can compare it to is getting in a car accident that I didn't see coming. The force was comparable, as was the resulting shock. Your brain just shuts down and you keep repeating, "WTF just happened?" because you have no frame of reference.

Now, I'm not a wimp. I wrestled in high school, I was a fullback on my high school AAA varsity team, I played a couple years as a hooker on an intermural "fun league" rugby team in college, and play soccer in a men's league that allows contact. I lift weights. I'd been boxing for about 4 months and had been knocked around pretty good. I'm pretty big, and I'm strong, and I'm no stranger to getting hit. Or so I thought.

My first cognitive thought after this guy hit me was, "Sweet Jesus, what if this guy had hit me like that on the street?" Nothing -- and I mean nothing -- had prepared me for the physical reaction to a full-force punch from a trained boxer. Granted, he was a heavyweight with, IIRC, 15 amateur bouts under his belt, but it nearly threw me into full-blown shock. I had to throw it in for the day because I couldn't stop shaking.

It took another year of conditioning to learn to keep fighting after someone lands a punch like that -- not so much the physical as the mental conditioning: to not even blink, to just keep going with a poker face, to counterpunch when your instincts are screaming at you that something is horribly wrong and you're in serious danger. That's the conditioning that, IMO, boxing gives you for the street, that many other martial arts -- the ones that don't train full-contact -- can't. A trained boxer, especially a light heavyweight or above, can not only deliver a punch like that, but can take one. And if a boxer hits someone with that kind of force -- and in a fight, he more than likely will -- and the opponent isn't conditioned to take it, the resulting shock and hesitation will determine the outcome of the fight.

I hope I never fight outside the ring. But if I do, I'm going in hard, and he's going down the first time I connect.

Top
#167487 - 06/20/06 01:11 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Granted, he was a heavyweight with, IIRC, 15 amateur bouts under his belt, but it nearly threw me into full-blown shock. I had to throw it in for the day because I couldn't stop shaking.




Been there too. When it happened to me, I had to lie down for several hours because my legs couldn't hold my weight. Spent most of the time babbling incoherently apparently, although I don't have much of a recollection of it, besides really wanting to go to sleep but not being able to.

Don't make the assumption that other MA can't produce the same result. This happened to me when I was kicked 3 times in the head in a full-contact WTF Tae Kwon Do sparring tournament. The first kick was bad luck and lack of concentration, the other two took me down to my knees.

Since I've never been cleanly KOed, only partially blacked out, I'm not sure which is worse. But going into shock after being hit is a nasty experience for sure and not something I'd want to have happen the first time in a self defense situation.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/20/06 01:15 PM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#167488 - 06/20/06 01:13 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Glockmeister]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
How many boxing matches have you seen or been in count the times the referee breaks them or they get tied up. Either so the guy can't hit them or just to rest and test. Lets not play like these things can't happen, the greatest boxer in world will and can get tied up. They learn it to rest and feel your strength, its part of training, as mentioning with takng shots on the arms as a defense. Bare fisted or steel booted you can lose the use of a limb for a while.

They have Pros and Cons in a Real street fight like any system. Speed, contact, fitness and power are a Pro for them. Overall awarness of what can happen is a Con.

AGREE ITS A GOOD PLATFORM TO BUILD FROM. And is potent, but I'VE seen BOXERS lose fight in the street and win some. Usually taken out of their element with a grabbing strike or picked up an thrown to the ground. If you don't know how to break your fall you can break something.

I agree with all Pros the conditioning, contact, the flow and timing. They are subject to certain trained comfort zones, if you mix it with something that extends the range and mind, its better. Like any self defense system.

As for being hit by a boxers. They hit hard, you get use it & you learn to roll with it, Its not that big a deal. The thing thats consistant with any fight method it is the shot that you don't see or expect that REALLY hurts you.


Edited by Neko456 (06/20/06 03:55 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167489 - 06/20/06 01:21 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

The thing thats consistant with any fight method is the shot that you don't see or expect that REALLY hurts you.




EXCELLENT POINT. I agree 100%, if you are trained, it is pretty difficult to hurt you if you know it's coming. Almost every case that I have been hurt or KO'd was from the shot I didn't see.

AKK specialized in using so-called "obscure zone" techniques for precisely that purpose.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#167490 - 06/20/06 02:36 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
heavygloves Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 5
Quote:


As for being hit buy a boxers they hit hard you get use it you learn to roll with it, Its not that big a deal.




No, it really is; that was the point of my post. Unless you get hit that hard all the time, it is a very, very big deal.

Top
#167491 - 06/20/06 03:43 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
If you get hit boxing all the time you have not learned to box. You are just somebodies punching bag. Theres a reason they call it the sweet science. If you don't know it is a big deal for YOU. And you will not be good at boxing. When you are a good boxer its really hard to hit him hard until he gets tired or you catch him by surprise. For example have you seen the middleweights on down. Avoid a hook by turn their head (moving their chin), simultanously throwing a jab. You miss and they rock your head or 1-2 comob deck u. Not many HW do it but its a cute move.

You got boxing and you got putting on the gloves. Two totalling different things. I thought you were a 2w-1L pro or HW whatever. If contacts new to you, Good luck.

I'm impressed by every new concept until I understand it. Then I'm really impressed, just a note you don't have to get hit or hit that hard relax, be loose. Never mind You'll get it.

MattJ "Those that know, Know, BTDT". Those that think the Know, don't have clue yet.
By the way thats not referering to anybody just a thought. I mean I may not have a clue good boxers may get beat up all the time sparring? I've seen two good boxer really go at each other and no one gets hurt just respect. Now a bloody nose or busted lip ain't getting hurt in contact sports IMHO. Sometimes it not even that.

Being funny but have u noticed that a boxer connecting 40-50% of his punches, its a wash or not evenly matched. TKO stoppage usually.

If 30-40% connect both ways their evenly matched, Unless as you mentioned 20% of one them are POWER SHOTS!!! Out of 100 strikes 70 miss and 30 land, thats boxing, why defense. The other way is being someones PB.


Edited by Neko456 (06/20/06 04:18 PM)

Top
#167492 - 06/20/06 04:17 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
heavygloves Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 5
Quote:

If you get hit boxing all the time you have not learned to box.




Not true at all. If you box, you're going to get hit, and you're going to get hit hard. You're always learning, and learning involves screwing up. In boxing, screwing up means getting hit hard.

Quote:

When you are a good boxer its really hard to hit him hard until he gets tired or you catch him by surprise.




Not true at all. Not remotely true.

Quote:

I thought you were a 2w-1L pro or HW whatever. If contacts new to you, Good luck.




Contact is not new to me. That, again, was my point.

Quote:

just a note you don't have to get hit or hit that hard relax, be loose.




Exactly my point -- many martial arts and martial artists take that attitude, "You don't have to get hit hard / make contact / bleed / hurt / whatever." No, you don't, but boxing's strength is that we choose to get hit hard. We choose to bleed regularly in practice, to sustain contusions and broken noses and eye lacerations.

Quote:

By the way thats not referering to anybody just a thought. I mean I may not have a clue good boxers may get beat up all the time sparring? I've seen two good boxer really go at each other and no one gets hurt just respect. Now a bloody nose or busted lip ain't getting hurt in contact sports IMHO. Sometimes it not even that.




Depends on the boxers, the weight, and what's at stake.

Top
#167493 - 06/20/06 04:32 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Exactly my point -- many martial arts and martial artists take that attitude, "You don't have to get hit hard / make contact / bleed / hurt / whatever." No, you don't, but boxing's strength is that we choose to get hit hard. We choose to bleed regularly in practice, to sustain contusions and broken noses and eye lacerations.




Bear in mind that this kind of training is not for everyone and not all boxers train this way. In fact, I've heard from a few of them that they try to avoid injuries during training and only tend to sustain them in tournaments and competition.

I think that if you're getting injured regularly in training, something's a bit off. Sure the minor injury here and there due to the contact involved is good, but excessive contact shouldn't be intentional unless it's in the tournament ring.

There's a difference between training well in a resisting environment and beating up your training partners.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#167494 - 06/20/06 04:36 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Who is your boxing trainer/coach Joe Frazier? Even he didn't get hit all the time. You get hit but not soild/damaging contact, you learn to asorb and roll, bob, weave and move your feet.

I'm not going to debate how to box, you do what you been taught and have learned. But who punches the hardest without good defense is bad news. Did you see the Frazier Vs. Foreman fight!!! Anyway let me stop being funny.

You have you way of boxing and I have mines, let us agree to disgree. I still say a good boxer doesn't get hit much not as much as he hits his opponent. If he is really good he doesn't get hit much.

Now you got sluggers/bad defense and boxers/punchers two different type boxers. But lets not decompose. You think Boxing meanng getting hit, I think boxing means he misses and you hit him. We are separated by what we think defense IS. We both know and understand there are elements of both.

Agreed, In boxing you get hit, your defense decided how often, hard & to what degree. It also gives you those opening. This is where we part, I experience that you don't get hit hard unless you make a mistake or in over your head. Bad management decision or you are the mint for today.

Boxers hit hard, like Swimmers get wet be prepared or do something else.


Edited by Neko456 (06/20/06 05:04 PM)

Top
#167495 - 06/20/06 04:52 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Agreed, In boxing you get hit, your defense decided how often, hard & to what degree. This where we part, I experience that you don't get hit hard unless you make a mistake or in over your head.
Bad management decision or you are the mint for today.




I think what he was referring to is that in many other MA, you don't ever even experience getting hit and that this can be a bad thing if the first time you get hit is in a self defense situation. Being hit takes getting used to (even if only because you made a mistake and didn't dodge a hit), once you're used to it, it's not as big a deal anymore. If the first time you get hit hard is in a self defense situation, you could go into shock, this is why regular contact sparring is a plus point for boxing in terms of self defense.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#167496 - 06/20/06 05:11 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Maybe thats his point, but why is he talking like he just discovered boxing and they hit hard!! As you mentioned its accepted and controlled while sparring.

I understand alot people train in something they call whatever, but by the sure meaning of MA, its not MAs. If it was contact would be accepted.

Point fighting maybe I'd agree 100% with him and U. But to some glove boxing is light contact or only a part of, nothing specail.

Leo-e-49 I agree with that 100% you got to learn to get it you got to bring it.


Edited by Neko456 (06/20/06 05:18 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167497 - 06/20/06 05:14 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Leo_E_49]
heavygloves Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 5
Quote:


I think what he was referring to is that in many other MA, you don't ever even experience getting hit and that this can be a bad thing if the first time you get hit is in a self defense situation. Being hit takes getting used to (even if only because you made a mistake and didn't dodge a hit), once you're used to it, it's not as big a deal anymore. If the first time you get hit hard is in a self defense situation, you could go into shock, this is why regular contact sparring is a plus point for boxing in terms of self defense.




This is what I'm getting at. It's not like I get my nose broken every time I spar, fer Chrissakes. But I get a bloody lip every couple of weeks, or a black eye, or a good bruise. I've had my nose broken twice in three years of boxing and three amateur bouts. You're right -- we hit hard. Swimmers get wet. Anyway, I guess I've made my point: IMO, the boxer's advantage is his being acclimated to taking and dishing out an actual, full-speed beating. I'm sure there are other martial arts that train this hard, and I'd be curious to know what they are.

Top
#167498 - 06/20/06 05:26 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I hope this doesn't sound like me being a knucklehead but as your boxing improves a once broken noses become blood nose then a scrachte of the nose. He gets the broken nose or he's staggered or KOd. 2Wins and 1Lost sounds like you got a pretty good chin, a good punch and a high torlance for pain. Add a little more defense and better foot work, you on your way. Regional Championship, then who knows.

Good luck.


Edited by Neko456 (06/20/06 05:28 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167499 - 06/20/06 05:35 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
heavygloves Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 5
Quote:

2Wins and 1Lost sounds like you got a pretty good chin, a good punch and a high torlance for pain.




Damn, you got me dialed in.

Quote:

Add a little more defense and better foot work, you on your way. Regional Championship, then who knows.




Thanks, but I'm too old for that. Masters Division is non-ranked. It's just for fun, 35 and older, when you get too old for amateur fights. This is just to give my kids something to cheer for. I would like to pick up a grappling art and try a MMA bout. I'm 39, BTW.

Top
#167500 - 06/21/06 11:55 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Quote:


As for being hit by a boxers. They hit hard, you get use it & you learn to roll with it, Its not that big a deal.




No, it really is a BIG deal. Getting hit hard is what loses the fight, so hit hard and you'll win it. Hitting hard isn't just a BIG deal, it is THE deal (along with defensiveness, obviously).

Since everyone wants to talk about 'teh str33t', then it's worth remembering that most people don't ever fight full-contact, and most have never been hit as hard as Leo and Gloves spoke about. It's a hell of an advantage to be able to dish out shots like that, and take them.

Finally, I think some people think that boxers *always* train with gloves on - not true. Boxers' hands ain't pearly white, they're 'conditioned' - not neccessarily a good thing in terms of arthritis, but I digress.
_________________________
My Workout Log

Top
#167501 - 06/21/06 12:52 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: TimBlack]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Tim defense stops you from getting hit hard and sets up your shots. Usually one or two telling blows ends or sets up the end of a bout or accumaltively. But getting hit hard not telling/flush you can get use to.

Boxers hit hard so what news, alot skills hit hard Thai-boxers knee/elbow hard, Goju Karate guys kick hard enough to bust your grion/cup. Kenpo/Kempo (all karate) guys stomp you in the face and chest while you are on the ground after being swept, sparring. So what, its expected.

Getting hit hard is just part of training, boxers are able to take boxing shots. But most would quit if they took a thigh or knee kick, espeicailly because they wouldn't expect it or be prepared for it. And it could be career ending. Being hit from behind is something also boxers are not use to. People that box don't talk about getting hit hard, unless its a exceptional striker, like Tyson use to be. Just like people that can swim don't talk about the deep end of pool or getting wet.

As for hitting out of the gloves most boxers really throw their (veritcle fist) hooks in a way that it could cause a break in the little finger on contact.

Now to me nothing hits harder then mother earth being slammed to the ground hurts far worst then being punched. Its no way to roll or prepare for that kinda jolt, especailly if you don't know how break your fall.

Heavy gloves once you start fighting MMA you will under stand that boxing is just 1 of the 4-5 skills needed. You will only be in that range for an instant. You may only be able to use your boxing skill in breif moments. Unless they want to compare their stand up to yours. Beware of the thigh kick, it will turn your stomach. Your Leg locks up and stomach pain until you get use to it, but its a setup for raining blows!!

Boxing is a good skill but its only 1 range of fighting. Boxers imagine being mounted, choked, elbowed and punched in the face on the ground. Turn your back and you are punuched from the back and choked out. Boxing is good but out of its elements its a shark out of water. What happens to a shark out of water?

Stay in the ring if you just want to box, theres a whole new world out there.

Boxing will work very well on the street IN ITS ELEMENT/range.
Just because I don't call myself a boxer don't mean I can't box. I still don't like getting hit hard, its just comes with the territory.


Edited by Neko456 (06/21/06 12:59 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167502 - 07/03/06 08:24 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Neko456]
Shah_k_mate Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 1
Hello All, I am new to the forum and this discussion has made me decide to join. I have noticed everyone here just goes into a pissing contest about this style and that style when that wasn't the question. The question was: Is boxing realistic for self defense...

Absolutely... I believe the guy is asking about self defense, not competing or fighting for "sport" and I do not mean sport as in boxing ring sport. I have worked in a nightclub setting since I was 16 years old...(14 years, I am now 30) And unfortunately with that territory I have been involved in at least 200 "street fights". I was a golden gloves fighter with over 60 amateur fights. I am not claiming to be some sort of expert; however I do have a lot of experience in real situations.

If the guy is talking about the street setting of fighting then you must know what street fighting is before you start breaking out the all the MA stuff. Street fights usually, note I used "usually" and not an absolute term like "always", occur in settings where someone is drunk, high or some other irrational thought process. Any trained fighter should have an advantage over someone in this state of mind. First thing I learned was to remove emotion, not drive, but emotion. This is true with any MA that I know. Making a judgment based purely off emotion is a weakness. "Most" people who engage in street fighting are not MA people, since the one thing that has been left out of these posts is talk of discipline. People who are proficient at fighting are not "usually" the ones who start the fight, lets face it if you are an MA and you are out starting fights like a thug then you are bully and an A$$hole and are not worthy of even training. "Most" people I know who train hard respect the skill(no matter what style it is) and do not go out and abuse it. Now if you are challenging other fighter then it is the "sport" that I mentioned earlier. Again do not confuse that term with the type of competition sports you watch on TV where there are refs and judges. As far as your fighting element, most people that are fighting on the streets are not throwing devastating kicks, or clean punch, they windmill and try to get in close enough to wrestle. Boxing, as well as many MA teaches you how to deal with this exact situation.

Boxing teaches you how to fight while in pain, while on the move, stresses footwork and how to elude and evade, discipline, effective shots and combos, athleticism, how to fall( Iím not sure what boxing gym doesn't teach this, but if they aren't teaching it go find another school) how to control your opponents movement, counter attacking, lateral movement and angled shots, how to take a punch (someone made mention that good boxers don't get hit.. that is BS, granted your defense "should" control how often and how hard you get hit, but no matter who the fighter is he will get hit sometime in his life and anyone who trains with the impression that they will never get hit is at a huge disadvantage to someone who knows that a hit may come through the defense and how to deal with those unexpected shots. I call it the street chaos factor). Boxing also teaches breathing control and a solid upper body defense.

Now I would advise the would-be learner of boxing to take some of the criticisms of these posts and do some bare handed training because there is a difference in hitting with wraps and gloves and hitting without them. Also learn the "dirty" techniques, I have broken many hands with the forehead block and I have ended several fights with stepping in with a head but on the clinch, if you don't respect the head but watch the damage that is caused in any boxing match, especially proficient users like holyfield. Do not neglect the elbow shots. After you have become somewhat proficient at boxing then take up a ground fighting style, to compliment your hands and you will be "safer" than 90% of the people on this planet in an unarmed one-one self defense situation in the streets.

Top
#167503 - 07/03/06 09:32 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Shah_k_mate]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Welcome to the FA forum. Nice first post you've got right there. Very informed and well explained.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#167504 - 07/04/06 01:40 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Mr_Heretik Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
Yeah what Leo said.

One thing I'm not sure about is the discipline you mentioned. I would say that almost all of the schools give a person good discipline, but I've seen less of this in boxing gyms. I've seen people who take boxing for two weeks, spar with their friends who aren't trained.. and then decide to feel bad and start trouble with someone. I have nothing against boxing, but for some reason I've only seen this kind of thing happen with someone who practiced Boxing. I've yet to see a Karateka start trouble. Maybe because boxing isn't always seen as a martial art?

Top
#167505 - 07/04/06 01:55 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Mr_Heretik]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I've yet to see a Karateka start trouble. Maybe because boxing isn't always seen as a martial art?





I have seen MORE than my share of "karateka" with attitudes. Remember that human beings populate the fighting arts. Idiots and @ssholes are everywhere - regardless of style or discipline.


-John

Top
#167506 - 07/04/06 02:11 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: JKogas]
Mr_Heretik Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
You're right about that last comment. Then are you saying that martial arts don't really discipline people? Or does that only happen to the martial artists who decide to train for more than 3 months? I think its much more likely that if a martial artist is a p2ick and starts looking for fights, then they probably didn't train for very long. Thats just my opinion...

EDIT - Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread.


Edited by Mr_Heretik (07/04/06 02:16 AM)

Top
#167507 - 07/04/06 07:18 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: JKogas]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Agreed, they come in all shapes and sizes... and mentalities.

I've seen people walking around on the street wearing their Gis and when someone causes trouble, they point at their belt as if to say "watch it mate, I know <such and such MA>". Very foolish and a poor representation of martial artists, but it does happen.

It doesn't matter how long they train, these people won't change. MA doesn't change people, you can't force people to change. What you can do is give them a good reason to change and help them if they want to. But the intention to change has to be there, if they don't want to change they won't.

Also, remember that MA in the "East" was a breeding ground for gangsterism in the '60s-'90s. MA has unfortunately had connections with organised crime for centuries. Some instructors are out to create and cultivate street fighters, so even instructors can be an unruly and violent bunch. All is not peachy in the MA world, but as long as you keep away from all that, you'll be fine.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (07/04/06 07:24 AM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#167508 - 07/06/06 12:26 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Mr_Heretik]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Let me say this any pugilist skill that only promotes sports competition breds I'm better then you and I'll prove it attitude, it seems. I've seen disciplined Martial artist take up kickboxing, boxing and Thai Boxing and turn into very aggressive always wanting to prove or fight happy aggressors. Now I agree there has been some rouge Karatekas but by comparison, I can't compare the numbers. If you are taught to walk away and self discipline then you will do it. You fight the way, you are trained.

And before its asked doesn't Karate teach the sport competition attitude. NO not True Karate or Judo. Now their is a Sport Karate and True Karate discipline should be taught in both but as the begining statment states, its true for the sport aspect of karate training also.

Now maybe this only happens in my nake of the woods. But on average if taught the proper way a Karate person will turn down a fight. I've had kickboxers, boxers and Thai boxing friends accept to fight for me. I have drag them away and talk to them all night about it not being worth it.

Back on topic boxing is effective on the street, it is a discipline but it doesn't always teach socail discipline for societies sake. I've found more wrestlers that will turn down fights then boxers. Even though the wrestler knew he'd tear the guy a new a$$ confidant wise, u never know, u just feel it.

I agree totally that if you add somethings to boxing it will be well rounded. Thats what I did but I don't call myself a boxer because its only a 8th of what I do. Nor do I train to box in ring or train for gloves contact.

As for me address boxing in a sport arena Heavy gloves stated he may try MMA, I only gave him warning of not thinking his boxing training was gonna give him immeadiate success. It won't not if they know he can hit, he going to the ground or have sore thighs and give up. Until he learns more then boxing.

Boxing great but its not the holy grail. Thats all I'm saying. I won't even go into doorman or bouncing experience, which depends on teamwork you'd be crazy to mono mono it. You may only work one weekend before your 1st ambulance ride, if one thinks like that. JMO. Not saying you do or don't, but saying teamwork is more important then what MA you know in that field.


Edited by Neko456 (07/06/06 12:42 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#167509 - 07/06/06 08:57 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Shah_k_mate]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi

Some realy good points. I have in the past trained both, gloved and bare knuckle but now only train bareknuckle. Gloved does all the things you mentioned if a good coach is available but I think there is a difference in technique for gloved punches and bareknuckle punches.

Most people try to hit with the outer two knuckles(none thumb side), so if a hard surface is hit then busted knuckle syndrome. occurs.

If some one were to use their forehead as a block against a hard hitting, hands developed, bare knuckle boxer/karate ka then I think the outcome would be interesting.
Against the normal street fighter I can see your valid point.

I think the original Te on Okinawa was a form of bare knuckle boxing, I might be wrong but after some study it seems to be right.

So in my opinion the original bare knuckle boxing and the Te in kara-te would be very similar.


With the use of gloves later in boxing the techniques were changed.

Top
#167510 - 07/14/06 11:31 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Leo_E_49]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Few martial artists are as well prepared to face real life violence as boxers and judoka. However, this is not because boxing or judo are inherently "better" than other arts. The real secret is in the way boxers and judoka train.

Boxers and judoka regularly face off against actively resisting opponents under intense, realistic conditions. Over the years, boxing and judo's techniques and training methods have evolved, guided by the lessons gleaned from realistic competition.

Unfortunately, many martials artists never engage in realistic fighting at all because their arts do not have realistic fighting as part of the curriculum. Aikido is an example.

In other arts, the "competetive" versions are so stripped down and restricted that the "fights" are worthless as realistic simulations. Taekwondo--where, for example, competeters get points for light taps and hitting in the face with the hands is forbidden (!!!)--is an example.

Top
#167511 - 07/15/06 07:23 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: heavygloves]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi

I can see your point. But why would a person want to take a hard shot?And I think you perhaps mean a boxer if he /she is any good might ride a punch. That means they sway with it so as not to get hit full force.

When i first started in boxing I took hard shots because my defense etc was practily nil.

Believe it or not it was actualy blocking from karate that i then began to use in boxing. I think some one had stated some where on the forum about fast punches being hard to block. Well fast punches can be blocked, avoided and countered. It take s time to develop these skills. Boxers tend to throw punches and have certain stances that are easy to read once a person has been at it long enough.

Top pro heavy weights use blocks, very simular to blocks found in karate, then punch with the same hand

Im not knocking boxing, just it isnt the end all.

If a person who is use to gloved boxing hit some one full force and connected on the forehead then the boxer would more than likely have a broken hand. If the boxer has also trained un gloved correctly then the outcome might be different

Top
#167512 - 07/15/06 12:53 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: ANDY44]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by ANDY44 -

Quote:

I can see your point. But why would a person want to take a hard shot?And I think you perhaps mean a boxer if he /she is any good might ride a punch. That means they sway with it so as not to get hit full force.

When i first started in boxing I took hard shots because my defense etc was practily nil.




Very good point, Andy. Ironically, one of the best things about doing some hard-contact training is that you will learn to NOT take strikes full-on. In other words, you learn to use body positioning to mitigate the force of the strikes that do land.

Something that is almost impossible to learn in the absence of contact.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#167513 - 07/20/06 12:47 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: Mr_Heretik]
JKD__ Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 7

my friend ounce fought a golden glove boxer,at first it was a standing fight and the boxer literally beat up my friend until he almost got knocked out..but luckily my friend tackled the boxer and they started wrestling thats when my friend got his revenge...so boxing is good for standing up fights..but you might wanna do some wrestling too just incase...

Top
#167514 - 07/20/06 08:25 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: JKD__]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Quote:


my friend ounce fought a golden glove boxer,at first it was a standing fight and the boxer literally beat up my friend until he almost got knocked out..but luckily my friend tackled the boxer and they started wrestling thats when my friend got his revenge...so boxing is good for standing up fights..but you might wanna do some wrestling too just incase...




This is a sound policy.

Also remember that in the real world boxers don't wear gloves and you're not going to last more than a few hits from ungloved hands.

Bareknuckle boxing hurts. Don't get hit by a boxer in the real world.

Top
#167515 - 07/21/06 01:12 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: fileboy2002]
JKD__ Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 7
i think doing boxing gives you some advantages on the street....reasons
you learn how to dodge attacks
you can take a lot of hits
some punches like the right cross,hooks,and the uppercut to the chin should be devastating in the streets
more stamina
you usually are in shape...

the only problem is ground fighting

Top
#167516 - 07/27/06 02:42 PM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: JKD__]
Kazama Offline
mystical mountain hermit

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 105
Krav Maga is very effective, especially the fighting course I take (there seperated into categories, like self defense, fitness, etc.) They start out with footwork and basic blocks and dodging, along with punching. Then they move on to groundfighting, kickboxing, and normal boxing.
_________________________
Do or not do. There is no "try". -Yoda

Top
#167517 - 08/04/06 03:36 AM Re: Boxing for realistic self defense?? [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
What do you mean by hand conditioning? Like, Iron Palm training or something? That really only screws up the structure of the hand in the long run anyway. Itís easier just to not hit with the hands. People who train boxing can use their elbows and knees to hit with. One elbow is worth about 4 or 5 punches anyway.


Hi

How long is a long run?
Cant understand the easier not to hit with the hands part.
Been using bare knuckle now for 30 years still got good hands can still hit hard and fast and boxing yep I used to box but using bare knuckles isnt quite the same as using gloves.

Defensive as opposed to offensive?
Isnt attack the best form of defence?



I use my knees head elbows thigh kicks but 1 of my bare knuckle punches is worth a lot of elbows.
any how enough of this ego gratification.

I believe your a grappler?
Just started training with an excellent wrestler/ju jitsu guy as well as trad goju

The guy isnt particuler big or impressively strong but the skill level is excellent. Goes back to I think what ju jitsu should be?



Using the opponents strengths?

The good thing as well is he is also a bare knuckle hitter type, amongst other things.



Top
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >


Moderator:  Cord, Dedicated1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga