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#165564 - 07/09/05 03:55 PM Re: Gun laws: too much or not enough? [Re: Cord]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
The phenomenon of weapon substitution is well documented.
If you have murderous intent or criminal intent and a gun is not available-you will use whatever is at hand-cricket bat, hammer, knife, box cutter, etc.

The image of "the Wild West" where shootouts occured at the drop of a hat is a myth. Shootouts as such were actually very rare, yet everyone was armed.

Today in America, a large portion of the populace is in fact armed, regardless of the legality of it. This will not change, it is part of our culture. The vast majority of gun owners never fire their gun. A very small segment of gun owners use theirs to commit crimes.
Because of this, some start crying out to ban all guns.
By this line of thought, why are we not banning cars?
Through their reckless use they kill far more people every year than guns.
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#165565 - 07/09/05 04:39 PM Re: Gun laws: too much or not enough? [Re: nekogami13 V2.0]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by nekogami13v2.0 -

Quote:

By this line of thought, why are we not banning cars?
Through their reckless use they kill far more people every year than guns.




Car's intended purpose is transportation. A gun's purpose is to injure/kill.

Reckless use of a gun has the same consequences as "proper" use (death/injury). Not so for the car.

I do not know enough about gun laws/crimes/statistics to have an opinion, was just making a point about neko's analogy.
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#165566 - 07/09/05 06:24 PM Re: Gun laws: too much or not enough? [Re: Slayr]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Owning a gun is one thing. Carrying a gun is a whole different ballgame. You can own a cricket bat, knife, bicycle chain and so forth but do you feel the urge to carry them around with you, no. If you do carry them then, in the eyes of the law, you are carrying an offensive weapon.(unless you are on the way out to the crease of course, re cricket bat) So, like all these potential weapons, if you do not have an absolutely cast iron reason for carrying them, you're bang in trouble, the same it should be for guns. The only difference I can think of is that a guns purpose is to seriously injure or kill. Therefore unless you are taking it to be cleaned, repaired or whatever, there should be no good reason to be carrying it. The assumption would be you're up to mischief and you're going to be arrested, charged and if convicted, feel the full force of the law.
The above comments are directed at our U.S. friends. In England the laws have fairly recently got tighter. The theory being that if you possess a gun you're a criminal. That's it. Black and white. I like it that way.
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#165567 - 07/09/05 11:15 PM Re: Gun laws: too much or not enough? [Re: McSensei]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

So, like all these potential weapons, if you do not have an absolutely cast iron reason for carrying them, you're bang in trouble, the same it should be for guns.



Is not self defense a feasable reason for carrying a gun or any type of weapon?

Quote:

The only difference I can think of is that a guns purpose is to seriously injure or kill. Therefore unless you are taking it to be cleaned, repaired or whatever, there should be no good reason to be carrying it.



Except for self defense.
Quote:

The assumption would be you're up to mischief and you're going to be arrested, charged and if convicted, feel the full force of the law.



Pardon me, but that is a dumb ass-umption.
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#165568 - 07/09/05 11:26 PM Re: Gun laws: too much or not enough? [Re: McSensei]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
McSensei,
Your post really doesn't match any statistics or personal observations that I ever made.There's no logic in your reasoning and I couldn't disagree more.
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#165569 - 07/10/05 08:34 PM Re: Gun laws: too much or not enough? [Re: Slayr]
Slayr Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Columbus, Ga. USA
Let me say that I think that Robert Heinlein sums it up as well.

For all you pholosophicators out there, maybe the better question is: What is the true nature of man? Inherently good or inherently bad? Was Rousseau right? That seems to be where some of yall are going on the issue, when you discuss whether or not an armed society is peaceful or one that will inherently become a disaster.

Just a thought as the question relates to philosophy.
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#165570 - 07/10/05 09:13 PM Re: Gun laws: too much or not enough? [Re: JoelM]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Gun laws are one of the major differences in culture between the U.S. and Britain, so I don't necessarily expect you to agree with me.
My comments were intended as a hypothetical way of maintaining the right to ownership of guns while attempting to circumvent the inherent dangers of said ownership.
You ask, is not self defence a feasible reason?
My answer to that (bearing in mind our different cultures on this issue) is no. To keep a gun in your house for the protection of you and your family has some mileage to it. Even for me. To step outside your front door bearing arms, to me, is an act of aggression. The problem with the self defence excuse is that at what point would you feel warranted to draw your gun? A punch, a slap, a poke in the chest or only if the "attacker" draws a weapon?
As MAGr and Cord mentioned, the problem is escalation.
I can see it now,
A spills Bs drink, B punches A, A draws gun shoots at B. Misses B hits C. Cs husband shoots at A....
I know that's extreme, it's called hyperbole.
I hope you get my point.

As to the dumb ass-umption, if the restrictions were in place as I stated, it would be a perfectly logical assumption.

The questioner asked for opinions.
These are just MY opinions, I don't expect to change anyones
mind.
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#165571 - 07/10/05 09:24 PM Re: Gun laws: too much or not enough? [Re: nekogami13 V2.0]
dadoody5 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 63
It depends. I don't know where you're from.

In England, the gun law is too much. Citizens can no longer protect themselves, and the criminals are taking advantage of this. If you'll notice, crime has jumped exponentially in the UK since handguns were banned.

In California, New York, and Washington DC, the handgun laws are excessive. They protect criminals more than law abiding citizens.

In Vermont and the states that actively grant CCW licenses, crime is pretty low, because citizens are armed and can defend themselves and others.


Those who oppose firearms and support stringent restrictions on Firearms, aren't living in reality. The reality is, there are a lot of bad people in the world, and they will do bad things regardless of laws.

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#165572 - 07/10/05 11:00 PM Re: Gun laws: too much or not enough? [Re: McSensei]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming a keyboard for typing errors.
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#165573 - 07/10/05 11:45 PM Re: Gun laws: too much or not enough? [Re: SANCHIN31]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I don't know much about gun laws or statistics, but I will weigh in on this on a personal note.

In 6 years of working in ER's in the US (I'm discounting gun shot wounds I have treated abroad), I have treated srveral hundreds of GSW's.

I can not think of a single case where these wounds were caused by an upstanding citizen in defense of self, a home or loved one.

Now you might think that I am working in ER's in some inner city slums or "ghettos". WRONG. I'm working in suburbs and affluent areas of cities and states that you would not think of as high crime areas.

So my experience has been that most or all of the gunshot wounds treated by myself or staff were criminally inflicted,police inflicted or children/teen accidents.

Anecdotal? Absolutely. Compelling? Maybe. Statistically Significant? Guess that depends on whether you were the one being shot

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