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#165031 - 07/08/05 06:39 AM Re: What kicks? [Re: Isshinryukid4life]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH

First in Chinto Kata and Kusanku Kata jumping front kicks are included, as my instructors got it from Shimabuku. I was taught two different methods for kick execution and use both to this day. Of course there is great variance how Isshinryu was transmitted by the founder and I could understand how some Isshinryu might be using different answers.

The roundhouse kick has been on Mr. Lewis' chart 2 for the 32 years I've been practicing the system, but chatting with others in Isshinryu on the nets I've found multiple variations of what charts are being taught. Likewise our chart contains side kicks and front thrust kicks on the floor. I prefer the depth of kicking my instructors shared.

For the spinning back kick, I'm sure it was a result of opent tournmanet sparring. We were taught them (as well as spinning back fists) and utilized them as our talents indicated. For the record the spinning back kick can be seen in kusanku kata as an extension/interpretation of the crescent kick drop to the floor, which can also be interpreted as a butterfly kick. So the inherent movement still is a part of the Isshinryu system regardless of the source.

As regards "My instructors were very pragmatic, and students were encouraged to move to whatever kicking range of practice they could perform. I follow the same pratice today, I believe its in the interest of best exercise and increasing one's range of flexability". I'm referring to the entire range of karate activity, including sport and physical development.

Much of the range of kicking in discussion is nothing I would teach for self defense. But that does not preclude interest, fun in competition or personal choice either. And just because I can't do something for self defensse does not mean there isn't somebody who can't do it, even if I feel it's foolish.

I cast no aspersion on any of the Isshinryu ways, but I can only practice it as I was taught, and share it as my instructors shared it with me.
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#165032 - 07/08/05 01:22 PM Re: What kicks? [Re: Ironfoot]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England
The style I train is referred to, by the club itself, as "Traditional Japanese Karate."
Where they get this from I don't quite know, as out of the 10
kata practised within the system 5 are Shotokan and 5 are from Goju. Therefore, it is in actual fact a combination of both Japanese and Okinawan, karate.
The founder of this style (Kancho Robert Sullivan, Go Kan Ryu ) believed he had taken the best of both and combined them into a very basic, (we don't actually have that many individual techniques) but effective fighting system.

We practice the shotokan version of Kusanku (Kanku-dai)
and the problem I have with this kata is the jumping kick toward the end. If katas were designed to be realistic fighting systems why on Earth is this kick even in the kata.
In Shotokan this is not merely a tobi mae geri, which could have a practical use (covering ground), it is a nidan geri which I cannot see as practical.
Or is this kick (nidan geri) one of Itosus' or Funakoshis' disguises?

Edited by McSensei (07/08/05 01:27 PM)

#165033 - 07/08/05 04:00 PM Re: What kicks? [Re: McSensei]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
By a ni(dan) geri, do you mean 2 front snap kicks, one after the other? That's what I do at the end of Kusanku, not a jumping kick like in Chinto. It's much harder to throw the second kick as soon as your first kicking foot hits the floor than jumping up and throwing both.

#165034 - 07/08/05 04:11 PM Re: What kicks? [Re: Ironfoot]
Bushi_no_ki Offline

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1669
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
AKK does teach some "flashy" kicks, but the ones taught early are strictly power moves (eg, adding momentum because you have the opening), and later on kicks like a spinning crescent are taught. I haven't seen any aerial kicks in AKK though.

#165035 - 07/08/05 06:52 PM Re: What kicks? [Re: McSensei]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH

The problem isn't with the jumping kick(s) at the end of Kusanku(Kanku-Dai) but how you're viewing it. There are any number of uses which are practical, including at the lowest level, instead of the first part of the kick, stepping forward and then throwing the 2nd kick.

Unfortunately trying to describe the range of applications within the technique series usage is extremly hard with just words, and, it really depends on which variation one is using, as I focus on the Isshinryu version I was taught, there are likely some differences in the variation you use, and the application potential would be different.

First as long as you have enough technique to stop an attack, it isn't necessary to worry about each movement's potential appication. The kick can be just exercise to strengthen your legs, and that's fine too.

Wrenching out every possible application potential is a lifetime study just for the art, after all any one technique in itself should be enough to counter almost any attack, if you're really good at it, and that's a lifetime study too.

I understand potential uses for the double jumping kicks (none of which are for samuari on horesback), and there are a few students that I would focus on that potential, but for the rest I'd focus on the exercise to build leg strength.

Just a few thoughts,
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#165036 - 07/08/05 08:32 PM Re: What kicks? [Re: Ironfoot]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England
By Ni-dan geri, the way I've been taught, I mean the following;
From migi zenkutsu dachi. (Rt.Fwd stance)* Launch forward kicking chudan mae geri, before landing perform jodan mae geri with other leg. Obviously the height of this kick can be varied to a more sensible level, but even performed a lot lower it is still pretty difficult.
The ni-dan roughly translates as 2 level.
* Not being patronizing just not sure if we use the same terminology.

Edited by McSensei (07/08/05 08:54 PM)

#165037 - 07/12/05 01:22 PM Re: What kicks? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
There is a big difference in TKD and a system like Shotokan, or Goju-ryu. Basic and perfection of basic combinaions are stressed with Goju & Shotokan. Whereas learning to do the split kicks and jump kicks in combination is tressed in TKD. I saw the matrix front kick in 1985 a TKD 6th dan did up a heavy bag. I was not impressed, it didn't look very praciticle. Now as a young brown - black belt, I was able do all kind of things, I was flexible. I can still some of the fancy kicks but when I do I ask myself why? There are so many techinque that take less energy and are more accurate.

Thats 1 of the things that I disliked is TKD for Nidan up you learn all kinds of basic built upon like the jump round kick & jsbk & rk before hit the ground. It does take some fitness to do that but how praciticle is it for street applications.

Whereas Goju stresses swiping elbow, back fist, groin slap or tear, palm strike sweep & front kick in combo. Shotokan the side elbow backfist, reverse punch, & front kick (that thrust like a side kick).

I often am amused at my ex-wife's son doing his axe kick thinking thats impressive, he is flexible but how practicle is it in a street encounter.

Now the fact that they can kick fast to the head, its really fast low. I remember when we both young bb, this Mudukwan-do player had a front leg rk to the grion that almost impossible to block by hand. You had to block it with your sanchin or legs, it was too low and fast otherwise.

#165038 - 07/12/05 06:24 PM Re: What kicks? [Re: Neko456]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
on the subject of nidan geri, which I think is the only 'jumping' kick practised in the majority of shorin ryu.

My thoughts ar ethat the kick is designed for the following -

to 'blast' out of a corner

to fake a low kick and contact with the second kick

Im sur ethere is a better reason, but this is what my understanding of the technique is thus far

#165039 - 07/14/05 09:03 AM Re: What kicks? [Re: Zombie Zero]
Acid Offline

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Australia
i have studied a few styles of karate and TKD over the years and have found that most of what both teach to be very similar . as has been stated above by a few people each stlye places different emphasis on specific techniques over others. in TKD this is clearly kicking techniques. because of this emphasis on longer ranged combat it makes sense that they would develope and concentrate on kicking to a larger and "flashier" extent.

throughout my training (about eightish years) i have found that most styles of karate teach advanced kicking techniques but dont nessesarily use them nor grade people on them until much later on.. the less experienced TKD student will have beter balance and ability for kicking earlier and progress further quicker than the Karate student as far as kicking is concerned.
"The strongest way to block, is never to provoke a blow" "through form and speed comes power."

#165040 - 07/14/05 12:06 PM Re: What kicks? [Re: Zombie Zero]
bo-ken Offline

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
ZombieZero I am a Nidan in Shotokan.

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