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#164407 - 07/07/05 11:53 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: fattts14]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

pressure points as the petso in a psata sauce, on it's own not all that good but when added to the main course and it adds so much




Great analogy, I like! *Gav reaches for his note book!*

Quote:

Seperate note: has any one heard of those crazy movie pressure point tricks working like kill bill's 5 point exploding heart thing




Nope, but can think of a few organisation which will claim they can do it!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#164408 - 07/07/05 04:23 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: Gavin]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
Other orgonizations like Xena warrior princess?
_________________________
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#164409 - 07/07/05 04:50 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: underdog]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Underdog,

What is it in your experience that lends creedance to the effectiveness of a NTKO?

I am not doubting that you have seen one. Nor am I trying to be argumentative.

You will have an interesting perspective on this as both an RN and a martial artist.

I am always curious as to how health care providers in the martial arts reconcile ki/chi activity with basic physiological processes.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#164410 - 07/08/05 05:52 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: BuDoc]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I've seen quite a few of the NTKO however, the most convincing was done in Mexico when I was at a conference hosted by one of the doctors in our organization (KI).

There were a lot of doctors there because they were doing medical studies, and they were showing us things like cadaver demonstration of the pressure points on the arm. They did KO, NTKO and demonstrated other things like pressure on the eye, the chest etc. showing the vasovegal response. With pulse and blood oxygen and sometimes BP being monitored, it is very convincing. One can not fake these things. KI (Evan Pantazi) is doing a lot to bridge the understanding between TCM and MWM understanding of Kyusho. If you are interested in seeing the cadaver, next year they are going to show us the head points.

The most bizzare thing I saw was that Master Jim Corn made Dr. Espejo pass out, while Dr. Espejo was being monitored, and Master Corn was actually in another room. This is not a combat skill, nor is it reliable, and I really do understand that people who don't think it exists can get angry about it. That is OK. If and when it developes into a reliable skill, then no body will be asking underdogs like me why I believe they exist.

I saw similar things done by a Qigong master on some "Discovery" type television show. Unfortunately, I don't have the credits or remember the names. All I can say is that we are wonderfully made. Human beings are capable of much more than even we think possible.

Back on topic, your post didn't say where you were from. I'm not familiar with the restraint/deescalation system you mention. I teach Crisis Prevention Institute both the basic and the advanced techniques. I also teach our full restraint techniques. We aren't supposed to harm people or hurt them. Hidden in the CPI techniques, are a lot of pressure points. I know they wouldn't appreciate it if I told my students that, however, they researched what they give us. It helps to know pressure points because if a student is having a problem with a technique, with my MA background, it is easier to fix what they are doing.

I think a big mistake is for people to think they can learn to fight by studying only pressure points. You are quite correct, it is the pesto in the pasta sauce.

Now back to the dojo to learn how to get those leg bars better and easier... unexalted realistic goals for humble people.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#164411 - 07/09/05 12:26 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: underdog]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Underdog,
Not to gainsay what you saw or experienced, but NTKO....I would certainly like to see this done in a double blind test with substantial controls before I will accept this as anything other than self hypnosis or done with the willing participation of a very accepting of suggestion participant.

No offense intended, but I have never seen or read credible information about NTKO being performed in a controlled environment against a resisting individual.

-B

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#164412 - 07/09/05 11:35 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: butterfly]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
NTKO stuff aside, think this has been done to death in recent weeks. I was on a Dillman course in March, and he was talking about some of the work he had been doing with people with the Medical sector. He has been coaching Emergancy room staff with simple pressure point techniques, that are easy to teach and even easier to apply. He didn't really elborate much past that. I'm would actually like to work with our guy alot more on developing some techniques that he could use at work, but he said with the constant threat of legal action faced with the industry it would be very tricky for him to work it in.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#164413 - 07/09/05 01:57 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: butterfly]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
It ISN'T reliable. That is why everyone looks at the failed attempts and videos of failed attempts. No offense meant or taken. Truth can stand by itself. That is why I don't work to attempt to learn the NTKO. I just watch with baited curiousity and facination at the people who are developing it. I have a lot to learn before I even daydream about it, so I don't worry about it and the folks who want proof don't offend me. I think the nay sayers are stuck in an all or nothing mode.

I could, by analogy say I didn't believe in an inside wrist lock (kotagashi or turning around heaven and earth)because as a beginner, I have trouble with it and the experienced or bigger martial artists could resist my attempts. It would be true that I could work it off people who knew me like my own teachers and classmates because of their compliance. When I maybe go work it with other people in another school who are trying to be helpful but are unfamiliar with the specific drill I am trying to work, maybe I can't pull it off. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means I can't do it yet. That is where the NTKO is in my opinion. I also notice that the people who can do them, stay out of the discussion. That is probably the smarter thing to do. I know a couple that read this forum regularly and I am probably irritating them with this post.

Believe what you want. You could still come to the Mexico conference. It is really cool to see the pressure points in dissection and to see what happens to live people who are monitored during demonstrations.

All this is well covered in other posts. The issue for this thread is do PP work for self defense. Yes they do. If I can pull them off, anyone can. I am a 56 yo female and I've only been doing martial arts for about 9 years, I'm not sure. My rank is shodan which is, remember, a modest rank. Some schools don't even let you start PP study until you are shodan. That is the way it was in my school until I got to shodan. Now they let anyone study it and they integrate the basics in bite size bits, right into the color ranks material. If it wasn't useful and effective, there'd be no one studying it.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#164414 - 07/12/05 12:48 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: underdog]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

It ISN'T reliable. That is why everyone looks at the failed attempts and videos of failed attempts. No offense meant or taken. Truth can stand by itself. That is why I don't work to attempt to learn the NTKO. I just watch with baited curiousity and facination at the people who are developing it. I have a lot to learn before I even daydream about it, so I don't worry about it and the folks who want proof don't offend me. I think the nay sayers are stuck in an all or nothing mode.





If you read what I have posted on the subject, you will find that I don't disagree that it works sometimes it is my assertion that it 'working' has nothing to do qi.


Quote:

I could, by analogy say I didn't believe in an inside wrist lock (kotagashi or turning around heaven and earth)because as a beginner, I have trouble with it and the experienced or bigger martial artists could resist my attempts. It would be true that I could work it off people who knew me like my own teachers and classmates because of their compliance. When I maybe go work it with other people in another school who are trying to be helpful but are unfamiliar with the specific drill I am trying to work, maybe I can't pull it off.





This is somewhat of a non-sequitur because it is not the inexperienced that we are talking about when discussing the NTKO and qi. They have been working with it for quite a while now (several years, at least ten that I am aware of maybe longer) and no one has still been able to reproduce it in a controlled environment.


Quote:

I also notice that the people who can do them, stay out of the discussion. That is probably the smarter thing to do. I know a couple that read this forum regularly and I am probably irritating them with this post.





They may stay out of the discussion because they will be asked to perform the effect in a controlled environment. Each time this has occured it has failed or they simply will not perform the effect in a controlled environment.


Quote:

All this is well covered in other posts. The issue for this thread is do PP work for self defense. Yes they do. If I can pull them off, anyone can. I am a 56 yo female and I've only been doing martial arts for about 9 years, I'm not sure. My rank is shodan which is, remember, a modest rank.




Yes they do, but not the way many practice them today. I believe that you have clip up on the KI site at the moment, yes?



--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#164415 - 07/12/05 08:29 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: Kempoman]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
You are right about everything. No disagreement... just communication style. Yup that was my clip. Made all the kids and relations watch it too. I broke the barrier. I did the easiest possible KO I could do in front of an audience. I took my time and did it. I've done moving ones and unrehearsed ones and unplanned ones and accidental ones in school, but never in front of an audience. Who are you? Your profile doesn't say. Do I know you? How did you find my clip? E-mail me. I would have e-mailed this post to you but I didn't have your permission.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#164416 - 07/12/05 10:20 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: SANCHIN31]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Has anyone here ever used pressure points in self defense or know someone who has?




Would anyone else like to address the original question?
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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