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#164397 - 07/05/05 11:49 PM Self defense strikes
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Has anyone here ever used pressure points in self defense or know someone who has?
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#164398 - 07/06/05 12:20 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: SANCHIN31]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
I do wish I knew someone that has.
I read Dillmans book and played with it a bit myself.
Mostly all I can suggest is it is really important to have an experienced person to teach you if you are experimenting.
I have studied Shiatsu massage a bit and reflexology but not near enough to play with P.Point strikeing more than a few minutes at a time. When I over did testing on my own arms and legs I could see how important experienced training would be.

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#164399 - 07/06/05 12:26 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: SANCHIN31]
NeoSaturn Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Canada
the only PP strike i have ever used is a ridgehand to the side of the kneck.
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#164400 - 07/06/05 09:57 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: NeoSaturn]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I've used it in self defense. It works. If you train your pressure points, you'll hit them and you'll press or squeeze or rub them depending on whether you are striking or using tuite or take-downs or looking for compliance or whatever. Keep training them. They really are good for something.

If you think that one uses pressure points to attain impressive light touch KO or NTKO then I'd answer "maybe". I'm pretty sure I could get a KO if that were my goal. My self defense is at work and if I knocked someone out, I'd have a lot of explaining to do. All of the KOs I've done have been in the context of training with willing ukes and good supervision. That NTKO thing? Forget it. I suppose you could argue that if you really had chi control you could walk on water. Maybe so but if I'm in a fight, I just want to hold my water and be able to walk away. So give me points that will make my arm bars better and give me points that will help me knock someone down and put them under control. Just my opinion.
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#164401 - 07/06/05 10:00 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: Diga]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I've used them a couple of times working as a doorman. I was trying to get a guy to let go of railing to walk him out but he refused, I pushed my thumb into Small Intestine 8, on the radial side of the arm just above the elbow. This is a release point for the elbow, and it did indeed release the elbow so that I could get a hammer lock on him to walk him out. I've also used stomach 9 a few times, but I don't think that one really counts as most people know how to stick their fingers into the neck and the fact that your going into the carotid's makes it quite easy. I've woken quite a few people up using the pressure point revivals, which have worked really well, but that wasn't really the question was it?


Edited by Gavin (07/06/05 10:06 AM)
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#164402 - 07/06/05 10:13 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Underdog, what line of work are you in?
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#164403 - 07/06/05 10:32 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: SANCHIN31]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
To continue farther with my last comment on this topic - I do use Pressure points when sparring.
After finding several on myself it bacame natural to tap, squeese or grab an opponent. With whatever flinch or recoil I got from them I could then execute an attack.
I do highly recommend you learning to use them too.

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#164404 - 07/07/05 11:15 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: Gavin]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I am a psychiatric nurse. I also teach the course to people on verbal and other deescalation skills and so I'm not looking to enter combat with my patients. We jave a duty of care. However, with the higher proportion of dangerous people in hospitals these days, and especially with new patients, there will by physical confrontations.

I reread my post. I'd want to say that while I have seen NTKO and will place myself on the side of the debate that agrees they exist, I do not believe that I could ever learn to do one. I won't live that long. I want to concentrate on what is going to help me now and do that one step at a time.

I'll let the people who want to dedicate themselves to the matter, work on perfecting the NTKO. It isn't a combat ready skill. It is impressive to watch. It leaves me in awe wondering what else a human being can do. Still, for myself and my own training,I'd rather develop the leg bar from ground grappling right now. That would be far more likely to save my life.
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#164405 - 07/07/05 11:39 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
One of our students is a psychiatric nurse, so I have the upmost respect for what you guys do. As a Doorman, all though we're not supposed, sometimes people will receive a little "dig" to help them comply, this option isn't availble to you guys. Our student actually teaches restraining techniques to other nurses, and is going to show me some of the stuff used. I believe the system they use is called the PRICE system?
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#164406 - 07/07/05 11:47 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: underdog]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
Think of pressure points as the petso in a psata sauce, on it's own not all that good but when added to the main course and it adds so much. If you are the underdog and can't choke somone out or don't have the power to subdue someone adding the pressure point might give you the extra bit you need.
Seperate note: has any one heard of those crazy movie pressure point tricks working like kill bill's 5 point exploding heart thing
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Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#164407 - 07/07/05 11:53 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: fattts14]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

pressure points as the petso in a psata sauce, on it's own not all that good but when added to the main course and it adds so much




Great analogy, I like! *Gav reaches for his note book!*

Quote:

Seperate note: has any one heard of those crazy movie pressure point tricks working like kill bill's 5 point exploding heart thing




Nope, but can think of a few organisation which will claim they can do it!
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#164408 - 07/07/05 04:23 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: Gavin]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
Other orgonizations like Xena warrior princess?
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Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#164409 - 07/07/05 04:50 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: underdog]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Underdog,

What is it in your experience that lends creedance to the effectiveness of a NTKO?

I am not doubting that you have seen one. Nor am I trying to be argumentative.

You will have an interesting perspective on this as both an RN and a martial artist.

I am always curious as to how health care providers in the martial arts reconcile ki/chi activity with basic physiological processes.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#164410 - 07/08/05 05:52 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: BuDoc]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I've seen quite a few of the NTKO however, the most convincing was done in Mexico when I was at a conference hosted by one of the doctors in our organization (KI).

There were a lot of doctors there because they were doing medical studies, and they were showing us things like cadaver demonstration of the pressure points on the arm. They did KO, NTKO and demonstrated other things like pressure on the eye, the chest etc. showing the vasovegal response. With pulse and blood oxygen and sometimes BP being monitored, it is very convincing. One can not fake these things. KI (Evan Pantazi) is doing a lot to bridge the understanding between TCM and MWM understanding of Kyusho. If you are interested in seeing the cadaver, next year they are going to show us the head points.

The most bizzare thing I saw was that Master Jim Corn made Dr. Espejo pass out, while Dr. Espejo was being monitored, and Master Corn was actually in another room. This is not a combat skill, nor is it reliable, and I really do understand that people who don't think it exists can get angry about it. That is OK. If and when it developes into a reliable skill, then no body will be asking underdogs like me why I believe they exist.

I saw similar things done by a Qigong master on some "Discovery" type television show. Unfortunately, I don't have the credits or remember the names. All I can say is that we are wonderfully made. Human beings are capable of much more than even we think possible.

Back on topic, your post didn't say where you were from. I'm not familiar with the restraint/deescalation system you mention. I teach Crisis Prevention Institute both the basic and the advanced techniques. I also teach our full restraint techniques. We aren't supposed to harm people or hurt them. Hidden in the CPI techniques, are a lot of pressure points. I know they wouldn't appreciate it if I told my students that, however, they researched what they give us. It helps to know pressure points because if a student is having a problem with a technique, with my MA background, it is easier to fix what they are doing.

I think a big mistake is for people to think they can learn to fight by studying only pressure points. You are quite correct, it is the pesto in the pasta sauce.

Now back to the dojo to learn how to get those leg bars better and easier... unexalted realistic goals for humble people.
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#164411 - 07/09/05 12:26 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: underdog]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Underdog,
Not to gainsay what you saw or experienced, but NTKO....I would certainly like to see this done in a double blind test with substantial controls before I will accept this as anything other than self hypnosis or done with the willing participation of a very accepting of suggestion participant.

No offense intended, but I have never seen or read credible information about NTKO being performed in a controlled environment against a resisting individual.

-B

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#164412 - 07/09/05 11:35 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: butterfly]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
NTKO stuff aside, think this has been done to death in recent weeks. I was on a Dillman course in March, and he was talking about some of the work he had been doing with people with the Medical sector. He has been coaching Emergancy room staff with simple pressure point techniques, that are easy to teach and even easier to apply. He didn't really elborate much past that. I'm would actually like to work with our guy alot more on developing some techniques that he could use at work, but he said with the constant threat of legal action faced with the industry it would be very tricky for him to work it in.
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Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#164413 - 07/09/05 01:57 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: butterfly]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
It ISN'T reliable. That is why everyone looks at the failed attempts and videos of failed attempts. No offense meant or taken. Truth can stand by itself. That is why I don't work to attempt to learn the NTKO. I just watch with baited curiousity and facination at the people who are developing it. I have a lot to learn before I even daydream about it, so I don't worry about it and the folks who want proof don't offend me. I think the nay sayers are stuck in an all or nothing mode.

I could, by analogy say I didn't believe in an inside wrist lock (kotagashi or turning around heaven and earth)because as a beginner, I have trouble with it and the experienced or bigger martial artists could resist my attempts. It would be true that I could work it off people who knew me like my own teachers and classmates because of their compliance. When I maybe go work it with other people in another school who are trying to be helpful but are unfamiliar with the specific drill I am trying to work, maybe I can't pull it off. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means I can't do it yet. That is where the NTKO is in my opinion. I also notice that the people who can do them, stay out of the discussion. That is probably the smarter thing to do. I know a couple that read this forum regularly and I am probably irritating them with this post.

Believe what you want. You could still come to the Mexico conference. It is really cool to see the pressure points in dissection and to see what happens to live people who are monitored during demonstrations.

All this is well covered in other posts. The issue for this thread is do PP work for self defense. Yes they do. If I can pull them off, anyone can. I am a 56 yo female and I've only been doing martial arts for about 9 years, I'm not sure. My rank is shodan which is, remember, a modest rank. Some schools don't even let you start PP study until you are shodan. That is the way it was in my school until I got to shodan. Now they let anyone study it and they integrate the basics in bite size bits, right into the color ranks material. If it wasn't useful and effective, there'd be no one studying it.
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#164414 - 07/12/05 12:48 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: underdog]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

It ISN'T reliable. That is why everyone looks at the failed attempts and videos of failed attempts. No offense meant or taken. Truth can stand by itself. That is why I don't work to attempt to learn the NTKO. I just watch with baited curiousity and facination at the people who are developing it. I have a lot to learn before I even daydream about it, so I don't worry about it and the folks who want proof don't offend me. I think the nay sayers are stuck in an all or nothing mode.





If you read what I have posted on the subject, you will find that I don't disagree that it works sometimes it is my assertion that it 'working' has nothing to do qi.


Quote:

I could, by analogy say I didn't believe in an inside wrist lock (kotagashi or turning around heaven and earth)because as a beginner, I have trouble with it and the experienced or bigger martial artists could resist my attempts. It would be true that I could work it off people who knew me like my own teachers and classmates because of their compliance. When I maybe go work it with other people in another school who are trying to be helpful but are unfamiliar with the specific drill I am trying to work, maybe I can't pull it off.





This is somewhat of a non-sequitur because it is not the inexperienced that we are talking about when discussing the NTKO and qi. They have been working with it for quite a while now (several years, at least ten that I am aware of maybe longer) and no one has still been able to reproduce it in a controlled environment.


Quote:

I also notice that the people who can do them, stay out of the discussion. That is probably the smarter thing to do. I know a couple that read this forum regularly and I am probably irritating them with this post.





They may stay out of the discussion because they will be asked to perform the effect in a controlled environment. Each time this has occured it has failed or they simply will not perform the effect in a controlled environment.


Quote:

All this is well covered in other posts. The issue for this thread is do PP work for self defense. Yes they do. If I can pull them off, anyone can. I am a 56 yo female and I've only been doing martial arts for about 9 years, I'm not sure. My rank is shodan which is, remember, a modest rank.




Yes they do, but not the way many practice them today. I believe that you have clip up on the KI site at the moment, yes?



--KM
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#164415 - 07/12/05 08:29 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: Kempoman]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
You are right about everything. No disagreement... just communication style. Yup that was my clip. Made all the kids and relations watch it too. I broke the barrier. I did the easiest possible KO I could do in front of an audience. I took my time and did it. I've done moving ones and unrehearsed ones and unplanned ones and accidental ones in school, but never in front of an audience. Who are you? Your profile doesn't say. Do I know you? How did you find my clip? E-mail me. I would have e-mailed this post to you but I didn't have your permission.
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#164416 - 07/12/05 10:20 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: SANCHIN31]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Has anyone here ever used pressure points in self defense or know someone who has?




Would anyone else like to address the original question?
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#164417 - 07/13/05 09:47 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: SANCHIN31]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I havent used PP in a SD situation but I have used it when play fighting with my friends.
There is a tradition in Greece that on the first night of halloween (it lasts a week in Greece) everyone goes to the centre of town and beats each other with foam baseball bats
If you hit someone's bicep with a phoenix eye (where the middle finger in a normal punch is slightly protruding) their hand opens and releases whatever they are holding.

Does that count?

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#164418 - 07/13/05 11:01 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: MAGr]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Pericardium #2? Middle of bicep? The stun is probably what makes them let go.
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#164419 - 07/14/05 06:16 AM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: SANCHIN31]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Pericardium?
Isnt that that fibre that surrounds the heart?
I dont think its from the stun, although I recently tried to do it softly on someone and it didnt work, so you might be right.
I also used a PP on that kid who tried to slap me and I grabbed him by the throat, that was fun!

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#164420 - 07/14/05 09:46 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: MAGr]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
There are places to strike on the arm in a manner that will make their hand physically open or release.
I have beens shown these,had them done to me,and done them to other people,even when they are resisting.They are moves that are 'hidden' in many kata.
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#164421 - 07/15/05 12:43 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: SANCHIN31]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
[derailment]
I've been shown the technique to make someone's hand open and performed it on myself- by accident. Playing around I went to hit my girlfriend on the leg and ended up hitting with the inside of my forearm. My hand went instantly numb and I couldn't use it for a couple of minutes. Really freaky...
[/derailment]
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#164422 - 07/15/05 03:05 PM Re: Self defense strikes [Re: JoelM]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
There's quite a few good points on the arm that hurt like hell. If you're interested in the point location there's a really good database here
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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