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#163059 - 07/01/05 11:02 AM Relevance of kata
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Was training last night going through some bassai applications. We were going from the opening gesture (hand in fist at about chin level) to the so called supported hammer fist strike. We were exchanging ideas with eachother, I demonstrated the following:

closed fist grabbing the hair and pulling down, open hand pushing up at the jaw causing the head to twist, then going through the motion of the technique would obviously seriously damage the attackers neck.

One of my friends who (liked the same technique as a wrist lock) then said that although the technique would work, is it a relevant application to use in this day and age. i.e. is the application too dangerous ?

My point: Ofcourse there is a time and a place but in general.... Is kata too dangerous?

(I hope this post is clear to understand, its very difficult writting tecniques)
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#163060 - 07/01/05 06:23 PM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: creative]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
there are many lethal techniques contained within the kata, yours is a very good example.

I think it depends on the motivation behind training, part of me trains for self defense in real life.

If I or someone around me was attacked with no remorse then techniques of this nature may be required to finish the situation, I would rather have this knowledge and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Obviously the level of force is relevant to the situation, many who proclaim 'controled' response have not had real expierience to draw from, which is rather ironic really.

many students who are taught the 'full' meaning of kata are not suited to recieve this knowledge, this is the way of modern martial arts - you pays your money............

I dont wish to sound over critical, but also the actual reality of using 'lethal' techniques in reality is very difficult, most of us are happy to avoid major injury and get out ogf the situation, adrenalin and fear are powerfull feelings after all.

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#163061 - 07/05/05 05:15 PM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: creative]
McSensei Offline
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Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
The way I understand it, kata has many levels of application.
At base level we are shown the block, punch, kick type applications. As you progress and learn, the more potent the applications become. It is taught this way so that over time
the student should mature emotionally as well as martially.
This will allow the student to handle the responsibility of knowing when and when not to use their martial skills.
So in short, no, it's not too dangerous. It just shouldn't be taught to non serious MAs.
Most people see kata as just some dance anyway. Let them keep thinking that way.

Oh, btw, what style do you do? I ask because of your example. You described the opening salutation as at chin level. Bassai dai is a shotokan kata and the salutation is done at waist level.
However, my club and one other style do it as you do.
GKR perhaps?
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#163062 - 07/07/05 09:43 AM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: McSensei]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
I agree with the above posts and would like to add as well. Kata is able to adapt to any situation. Thats what is so great about it. Yes they are full of lethal techniques. But if you are also training in ways to just control an opponent rather than maim him, youll see that you have more choices. Yes given a particular situation a neck break or eye gouge may be nessecary, but my mindset has always been to try bunkai that are geared toward just controlling an oponent. I have the privelage to have two sensei, one is my kenpo sensei and the other is a sensei in Jujitsu , judo and aikido. The aikido Sensei loves to watch us do kata . He will watch us do bunkai that is lethal and crippling to an opponent. Then he will usually step in a offer suggestions for more controlling techniques or submissions that he sees within our kata. Its always an eye-opener. Take the above bassai bunkai for example. Yes i see the neck attack that was mentioned, but i also see it as an Aikido technigue from a lapel grab called kotegaishi. So i guess what im getting at is, dont always think of your bunkai in such a lethal manner. Yes its always good to know, but lets face it, the chances of us needing to break someones neck or rupture an organ is very slim in this day and age. With the laws as wierd as they are now its very dificult to think about how you can LEGALLY react in a self defense situation. Given those laws, i always look at bunkai from a very "controlling " point of view first(i.e locks, submissions, come-alongs and redirections that allow me to escape); then after playing with those for a while, i look at the more lethal techniques that are still there.
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#163063 - 07/07/05 03:33 PM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: Chatan1979]
kenposan Offline
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Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 633
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I think Chatan said it well. Kata is so full of opportunities. I had this discussion last night in class. We were working Naihanchi Shodan (wrist grab defenses). Many releases put you in prime position to strike. But that is an escalation of the situation, an escalation that can land you in jail. So we looked at what else could be done: locks, takedowns, etc. It was fun to explore these options and see all of what is available.
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#163064 - 07/07/05 05:31 PM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: creative]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Being the essence of karate, kata is very relevant.
Bassai is one of my favorite kata. If you want to learn some fantastic applications, find someone who trained with Shogo Kuniba Soke.
Practcing the applications can be dangerous. These technqiues were designed to break bones, dislocate joints, etc. So your partner has to be trained to take the breakfalls and you have to have excellent control.

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#163065 - 07/08/05 06:52 AM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: McSensei]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

The way I understand it, kata has many levels of application.
At base level we are shown the block, punch, kick type applications. As you progress and learn, the more potent the applications become. It is taught this way so that over time



I have heard people talking about the levels of application and am not sure that i agree with what the concept. I mean the first level of "blocks" being blocks is a bit of a joke i think, even though people have been training this way for years(and still do). My thoughts are that blocks were probably introduced to kata when karate was being introduced to the education system in Japan, and this is so called childrens karate. Surely it is wrong to teach people bad karate or karate that will not work in a real self defence situation. At the same time i know what you mean by as you progress you learn more effective techniques, obviously it would be irrisponsible to teach "lethal" techniques to joe bloggs on his first lesson. I suppose it is up to the instructors discretion.

Quote:

So in short, no, it's not too dangerous. It just shouldn't be taught to non serious MAs.



I agree

Quote:

Most people see kata as just some dance anyway. Let them keep thinking that way.




lol. yeah. kata to music.....my god....

Quote:

Oh, btw, what style do you do? I ask because of your example. You described the opening salutation as at chin level. Bassai dai is a shotokan kata and the salutation is done at waist level.
However, my club and one other style do it as you do.
GKR perhaps?




My club has broken away from its origional organisations for reasons i wont go into here. My style is called Goshin karate jitsu. My instructors are origionally from Karate budokan international and karatedo shotokai. What art are you studying?
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#163066 - 07/08/05 07:05 AM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: kenposan]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

I think Chatan said it well. Kata is so full of opportunities. I had this discussion last night in class. We were working Naihanchi Shodan (wrist grab defenses). Many releases put you in prime position to strike. But that is an escalation of the situation, an escalation that can land you in jail.




This is simular to what happend on my above mentioned lesson. One point though, it is sometimes difficult to determine the seriousness of a situation. In a split second you have to decide if the person grabbing your wrist is going to stab you, punch you, slap you or ask you where you bought those beautiful cufflinks.

Quote:

So we looked at what else could be done: locks, takedowns, etc. It was fun to explore these options and see all of what is available.



Yeah there always seems to be so many variations of applications. If you want a nicer application to that bassai opener, try trapping the arm going forward into an elbow lock, which will bring the body down tilt the head away from you allowing you to strike the back of the head...or pull the hairs on the attackers sideburns, that kills ouch
Thanks for all your posts so far
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#163067 - 07/08/05 07:12 AM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: creative]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

lol. yeah. kata to music.....my god....




Isn't this called dancing?

I agree with the statements already made, I don't actually believe that there are any techniques that are too dangerous. There are plenty of techniques that are inappropriate, for example shattering someones wrists for wagging their finger at you, is not an appropriate response. The more dangerous applications should only be taught with comman sense and responsibly. As some Japanese Chinese Buddhist Taoist wise type old dude once said, "Hurt rather be hurt, Maim rather than be maimed, Kill rather than be killed!" or something like that. Sorry bit hungover so this probably made no sense whatsoever!
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www.SHIKON.COM
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#163068 - 07/08/05 06:08 PM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: creative]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Kenshukai U.K., recently split from Kenshukai Australia, less recently split from Go Kan Ryu International.


Are you the Judean Peoples Front?


Edited by McSensei (07/08/05 08:14 PM)
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#163069 - 07/09/05 11:36 AM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: McSensei]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Are you the Judean Peoples Front?




SPLITTER!
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#163070 - 07/09/05 06:04 PM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: Gavin]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
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#163071 - 07/09/05 06:57 PM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: McSensei]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
And I ask you, "What have the romans ever done for us?"

Oh, don't get me started!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#163072 - 07/09/05 08:55 PM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: Gavin]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Right stop that...it's silly.
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http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#163073 - 07/10/05 02:34 AM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: McSensei]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
You guys just have to "look on the bright side of life!"


-B

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#163074 - 07/10/05 02:40 AM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: McSensei]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
"Life of Brian". love that movie...however the relevance to kata is nil and since the threads title is ironically, "Relevance of kata" ...I'd suggest getting back on track before something biblical happens to this thread.

you can see the relevance of kata when you chop it into small peices and disect,research and practice each piece separately. a decade of doing this and you might peel back 1 or 2 layers of how it relates to fighting and SD. I'm not done yet, so I don't know where it leads after that. Too dangerous? 1. what the heck does that mean? 2. don't worry about it, we are decades away from being too dangerous. 3. too dangerous as in too dangerous for being hijacked by a boxcutter?

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#163075 - 07/10/05 04:05 AM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: Kintama]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

"Life of Brian". love that movie...however the relevance to kata is nil and since the threads title is ironically, "Relevance of kata" ...I'd suggest getting back on track before something biblical happens to this thread.





Apologies, itr's a weakness. *Gav Stands* "Hi, my name is Gavin, and I'm a Monty Python Addict...." I getting counselling I swear!

If I can come up with a connection between The Life of Brian and the Relevance of Kata, can I carry on? Can I, huh? Sorry, I'll stop now! "And now for something completely different!"

It's better do have as many options too as many problems as possible. Juat coz you know how to kill someone, doesn't mean you have to. In the real world if god forbid someone was trying to kill you, but you'd only been taught applications that wasn't too dangerous (I'm using the term subjectively(sp)) you're been wishing you went to a club that wasn't quite so kind hearted. It's all about having the tools and also the intellegence of when to use them!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#163076 - 07/11/05 11:53 AM Re: Relevance of kata [Re: creative]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Application too dangerous? Depends.
I like to have 3 responses to every situation:
a) to gently swat someone screwing around
b) to cause enough pain to discourage
c) to maim or kill

Not many kata techniques can do all 3, but here's one from the very end of the Isshinryu Seisan kata. You shift back into cat stance while grabbing with both hands and performing a small mawashi uke (think of a quick turn of a small steering wheel).

a) Turn the foot you trapped to the opponent's "inside". This will turn his face away from you. You can either push him to the ground or kick up into the groin.
b) Turn the foot the other way. Severe knee trauma.
c) It's not the foot - it's the head you've got. Severe neck trauma.

When picking the level of response, choose wisely. Don't use a hammer instead of a flyswatter, or vice versa.
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