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#162995 - 07/01/05 10:36 AM defence against you!
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Ok, my fellow grapplers.
I have a question for you.
I have looked at several takedown clips, and have come to the conclusion that I would have no idea what to do if smoeone came shooting at my legs to take me down.
I had a friend put on a head cage and asked him to come and take me down, and bar a VERY well timed elbow to the back of the head there was not much I could do. The knee to the head is a bad idea because then you give him one of your legs as a christmas present (tried it).

So... how would you atempt to stay on your feet? I realise that you can do a sort of counter takedown whilst you are being thrown to make sure you are the one that lands on top, and I know how to defend against judo takedowns. But I would like some advice on how I would stay on my feet.
What are your weakpoints that I could exploit?
Thankyou!

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#162996 - 07/01/05 11:18 AM Re: defence against you! [Re: MAGr]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Sprawl if you can.

Shoot your legs behind you, and drop your hips low and back to keep the opponent from grabbing your legs/hips. Use your arms to push against his head or shoulders to keep him from getting any closer.

At this point you may be able to drop straight down on his upper body, or just push him away.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#162997 - 07/01/05 12:15 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: MattJ]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
That would have been my response as well...

I gota go try this tonight...
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#162998 - 07/01/05 12:36 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: MAGr]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
The tackler wants your legs or hips. Deny them this by sprawling your legs behind you and driving your weight into and down on his back, shoulders and head. This gives him farther to go and makes it harder because he has to overcome your base to close with your legs and hips.

First learn how to do a propper double leg or single leg takedown, then learn to counter. This keeps you from wasting time thinking you are getting good because the guy is doing the attack poorly. A tackle is more than running in bent over at the waist with your head down.

That is a common mistake with people thinking they can stop a good double leg without sprawling.
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#162999 - 07/01/05 12:56 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: MattJ]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

Sprawl if you can.

Shoot your legs behind you, and drop your hips low and back to keep the opponent from grabbing your legs/hips. Use your arms to push against his head or shoulders to keep him from getting any closer.

At this point you may be able to drop straight down on his upper body, or just push him away.




Matt and Feltch know what they're talking about.

My 2 cents; as you sprawl by moving your legs and pushing your hips back. It might seem obvious but I like using my forearms against the attacker's collor bone(s). Intially you are there for the clinch, if even for a moment, and depending on his postion, momentum, you can take them to the ground, etc., anything can happen.

Expereinced guys know what someone will do to deny them and they're going to have a plan if they miss the shoot. Things tend to get pretty busy from this point on.

I would definately learn the takedowns Fletch suggested.

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#163000 - 07/01/05 01:14 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: KiDoHae]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
One interesting point.

What if you can't sprawl? You are pushed up against a wall or fence or there are other obstacles preventing you from getting your legs behind you hips. In that case, it may help to lower your base and lean in, bracing and pushing off the wall. This can give you opportunities to clinch and prevent the guy from grabbing your legs out from under you.

All this of course is balanced with striking as tactically appropriate.
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#163001 - 07/01/05 01:20 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: Fletch1]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Good point, Fletch.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#163002 - 07/01/05 04:16 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: Fletch1]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Great Fletch! When I wrote the 1st post I was actually thinking about Matt's comments to use your arms and how to add to it. There are lots of ways to use your arms of course and I just had that on my mind.

Your point, as always, is well taken. Training in a nice facility with flat floors and no obstacles can unintentionally leave a false mental impression in your mind. I've found that I have fallen victim to this on accasion and constantly have to remind self that in real life these things happen in confined spaces like hallways, lobbies, cramped apartments with furniture about and so on. "Sprawling" is not always an option.

Thanks for the feedback.

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#163003 - 07/01/05 09:51 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: KiDoHae]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Another thing if you can't sprawl - dig the underhooks in (getting your arms between his arms and his body). This helps if he's got you pinned against a wall, etc. Sometimes guys will push you against a wall and rip your legs out from under you. Repummeling for underhooks will give you the leverage to help prevent this and move into a better position.


-John

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#163004 - 07/02/05 07:00 AM Re: defence against you! [Re: JKogas]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Thanks guys, I will take your advice about actually learning how to do it first and then trying to defend against it.
Ok...so lets say I have sprawled and I am leaned over him, what then? How could you get hits in? It seems to me that if I were to let go the guy would be on top of me. Would I have to grapple, or at least get in the mount position and start hitting?
Basically I m asking if as soon one person has initiated the grappling thats it, you have to play by his rules now?

I guess if you push him away from you at a suficent distance you can go back into stand up, but that would require a lot of strength seeing as grapplers tend to be big mofos

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#163005 - 07/02/05 08:06 AM Re: defence against you! [Re: MAGr]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Thanks guys, I will take your advice about actually learning how to do it first and then trying to defend against it.




That approach works with ANYTHING!

Quote:


Ok...so lets say I have sprawled and I am leaned over him, what then? How could you get hits in? It seems to me that if I were to let go the guy would be on top of me. Would I have to grapple, or at least get in the mount position and start hitting?




You have options. Control is everything in grappling. You have to have a dominant position on your opponent. Sprawl at angles to create space so you can get back up. Learn to cross face after you sprawl as well.

One of the best things to do is immediately control his head once you’ve sprawled. You have options from that front headlock position and in my opinion, that’s probably the best thing to work for. You can throw knees, shuck him to one side and take his back, etc. There are even a few chokes from that position. But you have to learn how to do it, then you have to wrestle it a LOT, with different people.

Quote:


Basically I m asking if as soon one person has initiated the grappling thats it, you have to play by his rules now?




Check out Wanderlei Silva vs Sakuraba. Watch Wanderlei sprawl and then proceed to play by his OWN rules. That is a great example of what you can do. You have to wrestle as I’ve said before. Learn some basic positions and counters, then wrestle them. You can do isolation drills to work for specific objectives, such as, you start from the sprawled position. Your partner tries to escape and you simulate knees, while working to take his back or something. If your partner manages to escape, start over. If you manage to take his back, start over. Just an example.

Quote:


I guess if you push him away from you at a suficent distance you can go back into stand up, but that would require a lot of strength seeing as grapplers tend to be big mofos




Not necessarily. Misdirection is another way of doing the same thing. If you get to a front headlock position, you can “shuck” his head to one side and move to the other side. What you do is, begin moving (with the front headlock) toward one side. He will begin to move as well toward that side. As he does so, change positions and shuck him by with the forearm, moving to the opposite side.

Of course, that means you’re going to have to learn the front headlock


-John

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#163006 - 07/02/05 09:00 AM Re: defence against you! [Re: JKogas]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Mate,
Thank you for taking the time, not only have you answered my questions but you have created 1000 new ones. That is the mark of a good explanation/answer.

I always save informative posts on my computer and this is definetely going in there, so that I can look back when I have the chance to practice and answer the questions I have created. Unfortunately I m going to finish the WC syllabus before I dwelve into anything else, I wish I could do two things at the same time, but I feel that it would be counter productive.

I have one more question though,
Quote:

Sprawl at angles to create space so you can get back up. Learn to cross face after you sprawl as well.



Ok, I understand the what you mean by angles to create space, but what is cross face?

Quote:

Of course, that means you’re going to have to learn the front headlock





I cant wait!

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#163007 - 07/02/05 09:11 AM Re: defence against you! [Re: MAGr]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

,

I have one more question though,
Quote:




Ok, I understand the what you mean by angles to create space, but what is cross face?




The crossface is where you run the inside of your forearm (radial bone) across your opponent’s face (jawline and nose), getting him to look away from you. As his face is forced away, he loses a lot of strength trying to fight you.

Check this photo of a kid performing a cross-face:

http://www.randyswrestling.com/Youthcamp03.04.jpg

Quote:

Of course, that means you’re going to have to learn the front headlock





I cant wait!




Enjoy!


-John

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#163008 - 07/02/05 09:36 AM Re: defence against you! [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by JKogas -

Quote:

Another thing if you can't sprawl - dig the underhooks in (getting your arms between his arms and his body). This helps if he's got you pinned against a wall, etc. Sometimes guys will push you against a wall and rip your legs out from under you. Repummeling for underhooks will give you the leverage to help prevent this and move into a better position.




You know, I'm still such a n00b that I never really understood in what situation underhooks would really be useful!

I am always thinking "defend your neck, trap his arms", it does not occur to me to use underhooks to defend against leg attacks.

Thanks for the tip and for goodness sake, open a school in PA.....
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#163009 - 07/04/05 12:48 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: Fletch1]
AikiGhost Offline
Member

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 85
Loc: UK
Quote:

One interesting point.

What if you can't sprawl? You are pushed up against a wall or fence or there are other obstacles preventing you from getting your legs behind you hips.




My favourite form against a wall when half sprawled is the "cowcatcher", failing that I pummel for waist controll and go for a takedown on them instead.
_________________________
AikiGhost 4 years MMA Submission Wrestling / MMA (ongoing)

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#163010 - 07/04/05 01:22 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: AikiGhost]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Also referred to as the Forklift or the most basic application of digging for underhooks.
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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#163011 - 07/04/05 01:38 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: Fletch1]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Guys,

Great posts. There have only been a few threads that I enjoyed as much where the technical aspects were discussed and readily questioned with the right "vibe" in the questions.

I hope the rest of the posts live up to stuff like this.!!! Great

-B

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#163012 - 07/04/05 05:00 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: butterfly]
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
A technique that I like to use;

Say you are too late to sprawl, Trying to fight it is a mistake and going to the guard...well it's just too weak.

I like to pinch my knees together and drive them into my opponents ribs/chest. The fulcrum that is produce enables you to go to one side or the other. You may break your opponents ribs so be careful. The key is to go "jelly". If you tense up no technique will work and you might get mounted.
Regards Ed
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#163013 - 07/04/05 05:10 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: Ed Glasheen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
For all:

I agree that the guard shouldn't be the preferred position on the ground in a real fight. Couple of things to consider though:

1. You may not have the luxury of choice

2. The guard's weakness is "relative" to the person using it.

Folks, just because you shouldn't pull guard in a street fight doesn't mean that you shouldn't train it. Just when you think you'll never need something is the precise time in which you will. You work the guard a great deal simply BECAUSE it's a bad place to be in a fight.

Does that make any sense?


-John

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#163014 - 07/04/05 05:17 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: JKogas]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
It makes a lot of sense.
We ahev moves in my art that are not very effective, but sometimes it can be your only option, so you better make it effective if you find yourself in that situation.
Did I understand right?

Also, could you explain under hooks. Are your arms going to the armpits underneeth or are they strikes?

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#163015 - 07/04/05 07:41 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: MAGr]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Did I understand right?




Seems like you did. The guard is where you are on the bottom against an opponent. However, it's the BEST position on the bottom in which you could find yourself. Against someone bigger, stronger and more skilled, it IS highly likely that you could find yourself HAVING to fight from that position. Therefore it would be wise to have as much game from there as possible, right?

Quote:


Also, could you explain under hooks. Are your arms going to the armpits underneeth or are they strikes?




It isn't a strike. It's a method of establishing inside control in the clinch whereby you can dominate position. All kinds of good things happen when you control position.

When you have an underhook, you are generally facing your opponent and have your arm on the inside of his with your hand latching onto his shoulder (deltoid muscle). Your head is in the "pocket" (his collar bone and jawline area) and your lead leg is beteen his, splitting him. It isn't a "static" position however. It's very dynamic and you're working as soon as you have the underhook position.


-John


Edited by JKogas (07/05/05 09:17 PM)

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#163016 - 07/04/05 08:49 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: JKogas]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
To build upon what JKogas said, the underhooks are a path to the back by way of going under the arms. Having an underhook (or two) means your opponent has to counter with a wrap/ whizzer to prevent you ducking under and getting behind him.

A single underhook with your head in the pocket of his neck is also an effective way to occupy and maintain a dominant flank position from which it is easier and safer to strike.


Edited by Fletch1 (07/04/05 08:50 PM)
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#163017 - 07/05/05 07:09 AM Re: defence against you! [Re: JKogas]
AikiGhost Offline
Member

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 85
Loc: UK
Quote:


Folks, just because you shouldn't pull guard in a street fight doesn't mean that you shouldn't train it. Just when you think you'll never need something is the precise time in which you will. You work the guard a great deal simply BECAUSE it's a bad place to be in a fight.

Does that make any sense?

-John




I agree, Id even go so far as to say if you dont have a good guard game you are in serious trouble if you dont hold total dominance from start to finish of a match, to me good guard work and shrimping is just as important as a good top game.
_________________________
AikiGhost 4 years MMA Submission Wrestling / MMA (ongoing)

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#163018 - 07/09/05 06:50 AM Re: defence against you! [Re: MAGr]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Beating the shoot

Definately learn to sprawl.

Keep as much distance as possible, that gives you more time to react to his shoot. Plus it makes his shoot harder because it has to come from further away.

Use your footwork to keep moving...circle, change direction. Dont just stand there being an easy target. DON'T move into him.

If you know he's going to try and take you down, use feints and set him up. Let him think you're open for a takedown, then catch him with a knee on his way in.

Dont forget that takedowns can come from a clinch. Those are harder to defend, much harder.

After the sprawl....

If you get a sprawl, and you get the underhooks in, start looking for knees, they're almost always there, especially if you're not dealing with elite MMA/wrestlers fighters. Most guys have a lot of bad habits when shooting in that you can exploit.

Learn the guillitene (sp?) choke. Sooo many people leave themselves open for this. Especially wrestlers, they aren't used to dealing with this. Again, look for it after the sprawl. In fact, look for it whether you sprawl or not. If the neck is open (even when you're being taken down), go for the choke. Be sure to put him in your gaurd as you fall to the ground, otherwise you wont get the choke.

Learn the crossface.

After you (successfully) sprawl, get an over/under hook grasp. Take a turning step back (like a directional change step in kata), use the arm that has the overhook to pull him down, and the arm that has the underhook to turn him over. I've heard this move called several names, I know it as the cow catcher.

The stuff I described are all high % counters and strikes. You get good at the above, you'll be able to fend off takedowns (from outside shots) fairly well. Beating takedowns from the clinch however, requires qualified instruction.

There's more, but a guy can only type so much. Watch some UFC/KOTC/PRIDE fights, and see how they counter takedowns.

OH!! Lastly, start learning takedowns yourself. That will give you sooo much insight. Learning how to do the movements will give you a greater understanding of how to counter the movements.

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#163019 - 07/09/05 10:16 AM Re: defence against you! [Re: Fletch1]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
*MattJ scribbling notes furiously*

Underhooks to duck-under to gain the opponent's back

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE OPEN A GOOD MMA SCHOOL NEAR ME?!

I seem to be getting more McMA than MMA.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#163020 - 07/09/05 10:29 AM Re: defence against you! [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I love using an underhook to a near-side duck under. That's one of my favorites. The duck under really seems to be underrated. It's probably the most high percentage tactic for (I hate to say it), STREET fighting. It's ridiculously easy to set up from a bicep tie or an underhook.

I also like using an underhook to a high crotch, but that's another thing. Perhaps we should start a thread about the wonders of the underhook.


-John

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#163021 - 07/09/05 03:22 PM Re: defence against you! [Re: JKogas]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Also...

If you think you're opponent may try to take you down, don't over commit to your punches. Throw 2-3 punches and back off. If you get to a point where you're moving in on your opponent throwing punches, he'll move back for 2-3 steps, stop, level change, and shoot . You will be coming into him, unable to stop your forward motion because you over commited. (I love it when that happens )

Watch Chuck Liddel fight, he's a master of this. He never pursues his opponents until after he's landed the big punch and his opponent reeling.

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