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#162881 - 07/03/05 12:05 PM Re: recognizing internal connections in external arts [Re: laf7773]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
This is a good topic.

I am going back to the original question that Laf posted. Hopefully I will be able to post a bit more pertaining to what Kempoman and others have said later, (I have been training like a mad man lately so I havent been posting much).

Quote:

Who has looked for and found the proper alignment and connections normally found in internal arts within their external art training.




I have not looked for it, however I have stumbled across it from time to time.
A few years back I decided that I wanted to make my primary focus in the MA's Bagua and Xingyi. This meant that I would leave the Shaolin Kungfu behind.
I still ocasionally remember a form or at least a chunk of a form. When I do the movement of that form now, I am often astounded at how differently my body moves.
Having spent 100's of hours training my body to be more connected, that connectivity has worked it's way into my body to the point where it is present a good chunk of the time. (Especially when I am focused on a specific martially oriented movement).
Something that I will play with from time is the Tai Chi form that I learned when I was in Kungfu. There was NO emphasis at all on 'internal connection' when I learned this form. I don't know if the people who taught it even had the connection themselves. Anyways, it is the 1 form that I still do occasionaly. It is amazing to feel how that form has evolved from being an empty/external form to an exercise for body integration, structural harmony, relaxation, etc. The form actually has meaning to me now, because I can feel it in my body.

Learning and feeling how the body functions via connection, or structural integration and relaxation is one of the most important principles underlying the internal arts and is the door way to having more power within the body's movements.

More to follow later - I am off to connect!!!

Chris
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Chris Haynes

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#162882 - 07/03/05 05:10 PM Re: recognizing internal connections in external arts [Re: Kempoman]
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Kempoman,

That was a quite enjoyable ramble.
I think that we may have similar poits of view on this subject.

IMO - connecting is a key component within any martial art, whether it be internal or external. If you are not connected with your body, then your power will be less.
To me there are two levels of conectivity.
The first is through staic postures. Through static postures we can find the body's proper and anatomically correct alignments. It is through these alignments that the connection can be felt.
This gives way to transitional postures - learning to remain connected while moving, (easier said than done).
In order for connections to happen, you have to have the body in it's proper alignment and you have to relax so that the bones can take the brunt of the work.
It is through structure and relaxation that connectivity arises. It s also through these things that whole body power can be developed.

One thing that I have relized in my training lately is; if you want to feel and really understand what whole body connectivity is, then you need to put in the time and train like crazy. This is the only way to 'get' it. We can talk about this all we want, but an idea on it's own is nothing without a vehicle to manifest the idea.

I liked your gear metaphor. That instantaneous movement has to be refined from the slowest large movement all the way down to an explosively small one. (Can anyone say 1" punch?)

I guess I have went of into a ramble myself!!!
I'll probably have a bit more again later - till then - train, train, train!!!!


Edited by Fisherman (07/03/05 05:12 PM)
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Chris Haynes

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#162883 - 07/04/05 05:56 AM Re: recognizing internal connections in external arts [Re: Fisherman]
nenipp Offline
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Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
That's a good point about static/dynamic, although the first is far from a piece of cace, it's with the motion I'm really struggling and noticing the lack of proper instruction!

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#162884 - 07/05/05 02:46 PM Re: recognizing internal connections in external arts [Re: Fisherman]
Kempoman Offline
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Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX


Quote:

I think that we may have similar poits of view on this subject.




I wonder why

Quote:

This gives way to transitional postures - learning to remain connected while moving, (easier said than done).




I was convinced that properly aligning the body in San Ti or wuji was the hardest thing to do...until I tried to move keeping the connections.

Quote:

In order for connections to happen, you have to have the body in it's proper alignment and you have to relax so that the bones can take the brunt of the work.




This is a very good way of describing it.


Quote:

One thing that I have relized in my training lately is; if you want to feel and really understand what whole body connectivity is, then you need to put in the time and train like crazy. This is the only way to 'get' it. We can talk about this all we want, but an idea on it's own is nothing without a vehicle to manifest the idea.




Quote:

I liked your gear metaphor. That instantaneous movement has to be refined from the slowest large movement all the way down to an explosively small one. (Can anyone say 1" punch?)




Well, something has recently happened due to the grotesque amount of hours I have been spending going over the basics and the new spine work that I have incorporated ove the last few months. My spine has become more 'alive' if that is an acceptable word for it. Everything else (all of the joints) is very 'loose'. I am now able to receive force from many different directions and either dissipate it into the ground or send it to the ground and bounce it back. I guess much like what Bossman was doing (although not at the same level) with Russell. ( BTW from all counts Russell is a very talented MA and coach who gives out praise very seldom. I would guess that if Steve got him to move back to the UK, then our estimation of the Bossman needs to get up a couple of notches.)

For example I placed my palm on a training partner's shoulder, I then told him to strike me in the chest. I felt his blow but only just and to his suprise I knocked him to the ground by returning his force back to him. Funny thing was that I made no 'active' motion to do it.

--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#162885 - 07/05/05 05:32 PM Re: recognizing internal connections in external a [Re: Kempoman]
LastGURU Offline
The one who knows
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Riga, Latvia
I think you've got everybody in this forum intrigued... teach us, Kempoman-sensei, onegaishimasu...
_________________________
Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without

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#162886 - 07/05/05 07:44 PM Re: recognizing internal connections in external arts [Re: Kempoman]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
A very interesting topic.

Quote:

Well, something has recently happened due to the grotesque amount of hours I have been spending going over the basics and the new spine work that I have incorporated ove the last few months. My spine has become more 'alive' if that is an acceptable word for it. Everything else (all of the joints) is very 'loose'. I am now able to receive force from many different directions and either dissipate it into the ground or send it to the ground and bounce it back. I guess much like what Bossman was doing (although not at the same level) with Russell. ( BTW from all counts Russell is a very talented MA and coach who gives out praise very seldom. I would guess that if Steve got him to move back to the UK, then our estimation of the Bossman needs to get up a couple of notches.)

For example I placed my palm on a training partner's shoulder, I then told him to strike me in the chest. I felt his blow but only just and to his suprise I knocked him to the ground by returning his force back to him. Funny thing was that I made no 'active' motion to do it.





I don`t know how related it is to IMA, but we were doing something similar once. It was done in coordination with the breathing, you had to be very relaxed. It was something from systema, I think. The strike was to be dissipated (or absorbed I guess) through the entire body, we didn`t dissipate it to the ground, or bounce it back from the ground. It was more like absorbing and then redirecting the energy. It does sound really interesting though.

Hi Bossman.
To what level can you apply the internal principles to karate (katas) and PP? Do you think these principle were/are already in karate katas or that you have to "add" them?
How did you negate the PP? Did you redirect the energy or something? I`m not a practicioner of an "IMA" so I don`t know how you would do that with tai chi, but I`m very interested in it.
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#162887 - 07/06/05 04:22 AM Re: recognizing internal connections in external arts [Re: Kosh]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Hi All

I guess if you work a good tai chi system it gives you all the skills you need, the Yang family 'exercises' give all the skills and power sourcing, the Yang 'sphere' exercise gives the spiralling and transfer skills. The peng pushing and 'wall training' gives the ability to root, absorb and return the energy. Small circle push hands is the ultimate absorbing and returning of spiral energy. The YCF form has it all. The weapons extend the energy, take the ideas further and really apply the footwork.

In karate, sanchin has the rooting and internal system, tensho the grappling, 'asking hand', floating waist and 5 animals and naihanchi categorises the power sourcing, it's all there for anyone to find without having to change anything.

Russell is a very talented martial artist and it's a joy to share with someone who has no ego and simply enjoys learning, I think we both have a lot to share with each other. Our findings are well worth a couple of articles in MAI.
_________________________
supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#162888 - 07/06/05 12:58 PM Re: recognizing internal connections in external arts [Re: Bossman]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
This just gets me more interested in tai chi and the like. But I wonder how many instructors teach this.

What is "'asking hand', floating waist and 5 animals"?
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#162889 - 07/06/05 02:33 PM Re: recognizing internal connections in external arts [Re: Kosh]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
The 'asking hand' is the soft hand that comes up to meet and 'read' the opponent, the 'floating waist' reads and responds to the pressure from the opponent and the '5 animals' are the hands in tensho kata in order: snake, reverse crane wing, tiger, leopard, standing dragon, laying dragon, crane wing.
_________________________
supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#162890 - 07/06/05 06:31 PM Re: recognizing internal connections in external a [Re: Bossman]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I've been studying Russell's Wave Form tapes intensely, and been having some very postive results. I was having the discussion tonight about internal and external MA's with my dad (and instructor) who has done both. Reading these posts simply has my head swimming even more. Thanks to both Bossman and Kempoman (as always) for giving me even more to think about. It's been the the only real thing on my mind for months now, I'm sure my girlfriend is going to be even more annoyed now. I can't wait for my week in november with Russell!

Kempoman/Bossman:

Will concerntrating on the Wave Forms yield the same benifits as the internal methods? Russell in his tapes mentions about the intent and direction of the energy is this the same as IMA? Sorry Bossman, probably over running my quota of asking questions of you.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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