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#161251 - 06/28/05 04:25 AM Transitions in dans
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
For the high ranks, what was the transition like between 3rd and 4th, 4th and 5th, etc.? I've been at 2nd Dan for a while, and I'm starting to feel the transition into 3rd I think. How do things change - if at all?
Thanks.
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#161252 - 06/28/05 04:48 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Sanchin,
I hold the same rank as you so this is an interesting question to me. How long have you been a second dan and how do you feel differently now that you "feel the transition into third"?
Sharon
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#161253 - 06/28/05 05:02 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sanchin31,

Same question as Wadowoman. Curious is all.

-B

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#161254 - 06/28/05 05:35 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: still wadowoman]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I feel the difference from the way I spar/fight and mostly from the way I teach.I made nidan in Feb05.
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#161255 - 06/28/05 05:46 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
I passed shodan in April 2001 and nidan in April 2003. I feel that my technical ability and understanding has improved since my last grading but not sure I feel the transition you speak of.

It will be interesting to hear from some seniors.
Sharon
_________________________
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#161256 - 06/28/05 06:16 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sanchin,

Interesting. I made sho-dan in 1995 (and still am a sho-dan) in the style of karate I currently practice. And I have practiced this style of karate for roughly 15 years. So take this as limited answer from someone of no great rank and someone who has never considered himself a fighter.

In the past, I would practice at times six-seven days a week for 3-5 hours a day (not always, but more than occasionally)...that was until I got married and tried to find more of a balance recognizing that MAs were part of, not exclusive to, my life. I had practiced other stuff previously and still do, concurrently...and I think there have been climbs and plateaus in my understanding ever since I got into the Martial Arts over 20 years ago.

What I thought I knew, I recognize I didn't. And am woefully aware of my ignorance, but also understand that I can only accomplish so much in my spare time.

Funny thing, I still come back to the basics of karate. I am fascinated more by the fact that I still try to tweak techniques for better utility...just a right straight punch. I throw a better right and left now, and understand why I do so more than I did 10 or even 5 years ago.

I can do a ton more pushups...but that is only excercise and can be obtained by anyone who does pushups regularly.

However, I can see the mistakes of beginners more easily now, since I committed them myself and am trying to carve them away from my abilities and save some time for those below me, even though they only vaguely understand what I am trying to tell them. That to do this the hard slow way, will make you better and faster in the long run....instead of just copying incorrectly the look of a technique. So, I have to explain more, especially for an American audience when I compare this to Japanese students. This helps me realize the conceptual underpinnings of technique so that I ensure proper mechanice get passed along, instead of an incomplete facsimilie.

I see the weaknesses of myself and others more easily and try to focus on correcting them.

I spar more intelligently now, when comparing the physicality of an engagement in my youth.

What I am saying, is that this happens regardless of rank. And I try not so much to compare my abilities with those around me (which I used to do) except to make adjustments in my own training and correct bad habits....I came to the realization that I am not competing with others, just improving myself. That was a hard lesson. So....there are those that are better than me, and there are those that are less able than me. I recognize that. But we are all on the same road.

I guess this is a ramble, but what I am trying to say is that if you do anything long enough with enjoyment and earnest study, you will get better. Now, how you use that attainment might be different, but I don't think this betterment lies soley in the pervue of higher dans.

I say this because I have seen 3rd Dans that are 16 years old, and I have seen 3-4th dans that have practiced only 8 years, and they may or may not have the same appreciation of someone practicing 30 years, but who doesn't claim any rank. I just want to practice.

Just a few thoughts from someone who couldn't sleep.

-B

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#161257 - 06/28/05 06:31 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: butterfly]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
butterfly,
I agree with your point,I guess I just relate dan rank to legitimate experience and rank.I'm not really looking to hear from teenage Hanshi's!
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#161258 - 06/28/05 06:53 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sanchin31,

Point well taken. You are lucky to be involved in a good, honest, legitimate style where rank generally equals ability and knowledge.

Oh, and I don't consider myself any better than some of those teenagers, just that rank was one of those things that was not a priority at my dojo after sho-dan, and I have never really considered it.

So it always seemed funny to me to meet someone in a MA context and have them ask my rank...and eagerly relate theirs.

-B

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#161259 - 06/28/05 06:56 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I obtained shodan in the early 90s in shito ryu and shukokai, and havent graded since I found shorin ryu last year, im currently an orange belt and looking to take my shodan in shorin ryu in a year or 2.(as well as my green and brown belt), for some reason those grades mean more to me than other colours!

I personally view 3rd dan as a good grade to run a dojo, below is fine but i think the maturity of 3rd dan is better, its hard to define really.

If we look at 'typical' training times for progression - min 3/4 years to shodan, min 5/6 to nidan and min 9/10 to sandan, I think its fair to say that 10 years constant practise is a good guideline for running a dojo, but in somepeoples mind not for sandan?

I also think 10 years is a good guideline to really begin understanding the core principles in your chosen art, and sandan to me is a senior grade blackbelt.

3rd dan at under 30 years old I struggle to understand, from a life expierience perspective.

Sorry its not from personal expierience re the grade but i have trained for 20 years now, i actually view the progression to sandan as similair to that of white - green and brown to black - a big jump in my mind.

I do like to put things in boxes, and hope that you guys can see my view on this. But grade after all is a personal thing, and is different within each dojo and for each person, as I have recently accepted is how it should be (to a point!).

I have actually begun to start to see the importance of 'titles' ie renshi, shihan, kyoshi etc etc, I intend to research these a little more but for me they would have more significance than perhaps the dan grades. Again this matches my view that Sempai and sensei actually mean more than grade alone.

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#161260 - 06/28/05 07:20 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
If I understand your question correctly you're not asking about ranks/dans really, more like the transformation that happens when you grow as a karateka?
In my case, the input is too small nowadays, for any development worth mentioning but as Butterfly said, the balance in my life is, well, more balanced
I used to hold 2.dan before I changed to the style I currently am practising, so I have no experiance of the higher dans of course.

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#161261 - 06/28/05 09:44 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: nenipp]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Sanchin I too am a Nidan as well. There are times when i really feel like i am at the pinacle of my skills and there are days when i walk into the dojo and just feel like i still only understand a fraction of my art. The system of kenpo karte i study views Sandan as one who is at the physical peak of their skills. They are also then known as the Dojo Sensei. Now that is not to say that after sandan you let your physical skills deteriorate. But in our style, after Sandan, you are graded more on your experience, teaching ability, and how well you understand your craft. I have only been a nidan for a year anda half. I dont expect ill be testing for Sandan for a loooong time yet.. Good luck to you
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#161262 - 06/28/05 11:56 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Chatan1979]
1973 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 20
A very interesting and difficult question. I believe this is where you start to go beyond the tangible mechanical aspects of technique and into some internal aspects. All hard to put into words. I will try and relate some of my own experience. First let me say I consider 3rd dan the begining of high rank and the begining of maturing in MA.Many may not agree and of course it depends on the person and the school. You say you are "feeling the transition" and that has also been my experience. I just kept training and at some point I began to feel I was reaching the next level. My economy of motion continued to improve i.e. accomplishing more with less and easier motion. You begin to get more of an "instinct" for the moves to put on an opponent during his/her attack. Whereas when I was in the lower ranks it seemed I had to rush to avoid an attack, unless they are very fast or I'm in close, attacks seem to be going almost in slow motion which gives you the feeling of having enough time to make your defense.I believe Musashi wrote "know ten thousand things by knowing one thing well" kind of like knowing many various applications of a single kata technique. You get those "Ah Ha!" moments more regularly. I could also feel my energy say at the knife edge of my heel with a side kick. It was like I was projecting my energy and myself (consciousness) to the end of my foot and seeing myself perform the kick. Not an out-of-body experience mind you but an in-body experience. This also gave me some concern because for the first time I felt I could kill someone if I made a clean hit with such a technique. It also gave me an appreciation for the wise use and power of what I was learning. Something we always talk about but, it's different when you feel it. I really can't say if some of this occurs through sheer repetition but the mechanical repetition alone probably won't do it without putting your mind (your-self)into your training. Some think there is no internal aspect to MA it's just sensationalized horse cookies to add to the mystique of the masters. One of the things we seek through MA is "the feeling", if it was just learning and performing technique I know I would not have lasted as long as I have. To finally answer, you will probably have some of these types of experiences if you continue to train hard and push yourself, as you advance through the ranks. There is more and I hope I haven't rambled on, maybe some of the other high ranks will chime in. It sounds like the rollercoaster is coming to the crest of the first hill for you so hang on it's a great ride. My guess is you won't be a Nidan much longer if you let it happen.

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#161263 - 06/28/05 01:07 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: 1973]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
very well put 1973. I can relate to similar experiences.
_________________________
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

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#161264 - 06/28/05 01:15 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Chatan1979]
Cesar Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 15
Loc: new york
I got promoted to 3rd degree(Sandan). My last promotion was back in 2002. I got my shodan in 2000 and nidan the next year. I did move fast coming up the ranks. It took me about 3 years for shodan, a year for nidan. I think that I would of got my Sandan sooner, but took 2 years off. also, i do train 7 days a week. I train with my instructor 4-5 a week and the rest on my own. As far as different "feel" technique, understanding concepts will improve hopefully

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#161265 - 06/28/05 01:30 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
I think 1973 has put it perfectly. "Mushin" is a Japanese term that has a few different meaning but it can apply to the sort of auto pilot type of feeling you get as you achieve higher rank, things seem to just take over automatically, auto pilot, a clear mind, with out thinking call it what you like but it is a product of repetition and training for years, condition=response type of thing. The other part of belt progression is for me personally I always feel that the simplest things need more work, my stances, basic kicks, pucnches, kata and so on. So in turn my personal goals are always being self critical on the most basic techniques. I think Master Hirokazu Kanazawa say's it perfect....Hirokazu Kanazawa

"The more I know, the more I climb, yet the mountain just gets higher. The more I try, the more I focus, the depth is limitless. There is no end in sight. That is karate, my life."
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#161266 - 06/28/05 03:10 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I received my Shodan in August 2000 and my Nidan in December 2004. I feel a big different in my power lately mainly in my kata. Maybe part of that is because I have grown since then.

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#161267 - 06/28/05 04:11 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Cesar]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Once someone comes into the dojo with a blackbelt around their waist, that's it. I don't care if they're a shodan or 10th dan. (And believe me, since I came to the US I've met more 6th dans and above than you could ever believe existed.)

I got my 2nd dan about 15 years ago and have no intention of grading again.

Generally I find the people above 3rd dan tend to get promoted for things outside their acual ability and I'm severely uninterested in it. I'll confess that I find the people who feel the need to have markings on their belts to denote their dan grade, particularly amusing.

I also found Cesars post a good reason never tograde again.3 years to shodan, one year to nidan and one year to sandan. There's clearly no hope for the world.
_________________________
John L

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#161268 - 06/28/05 04:24 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: JohnL]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
It really is so bad, that 'valid' dan ranks, that spend a decade in-between higher dan grades and actually test and get promoted by valid Sensei of valid styles of valid types of MA...they get lost in the sea of invalid Artists.

Makes the whole system of rank meaningless. I agree that your art is what you make it, not what you advertise it as.

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#161269 - 06/28/05 04:58 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: bo-ken]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shodan is the point at which a karateka has a firm foundation in the basics. That means that they can perform both basics and required kata without thinking. A shodan can ring fight, i.e, full contact kumite like K-1 kickboxing mixed with sabaki bareknuckle full contact knockdown karate rules. A shodan's body is strong and conditioned. Abdomen, forearms, shins, fists, feet, etc. A shodan can take a good blow as well as deliver one. A shodan is beginning to learn the principles of his/her style, not just technique performance.

Nidan is a transitional rank. In many styles one must be a Sandan to run a school, so Nidan does not have "special priviledges that Shodan does not. At Nidan a student studies the principles of an art through two man drills based in kata to develop the true skills of karate.

Sandan is the point at which a karateka has a good understanding of the principles of his/her karate style and is able to apply them. A sandan also must be able to teach the basics and kata of the style correctly as well as kumite. A sandan is also learning to teach those principles which he/she has learned at nidan.

Yondan is a transitional rank as well. Yondan is the point at which a karateka is learning to both teach the principles of his/her style and apply them in different ways. This is the level at which a karateka is developing the ability to free themselves from the kata. At more advanced levels the actual techniques themselves mean less and less and all that remains are the principles. The techniques are simply the means to express the principles of the art.

Godan is the level at which a karateka is able to teach and apply the principles of an art in an advanced manner.

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#161270 - 06/28/05 05:03 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: JohnL]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Quote:


I got my 2nd dan about 15 years ago and have no intention of grading again.




John, when I had the pleasure of training with you I did not ask your grade because I felt it irrelevant.

After seeing you teach, if I had had to guess I would have said 4th or 5th Dan. If you had continued to grade after nidan you would be around that now.

I love being right
Sharon
_________________________
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#161271 - 06/28/05 05:23 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: medulanet]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Medulanet

What a wonderful explanation you gave of Dan grades and what they mean.

If there was more than an eye drop of fact in the whole explanation, you might have held my attention.
_________________________
John L

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#161272 - 06/28/05 10:32 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
Crash Offline
Buckle up!

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I'm no black belt of course, One of my sensi's has been a sandan for quite a few years now and he's been doing karate for 20 years, he's 37 now and in good shape so I asked him "have you thought about getting your 4th degree?" and he said "sure I've thought about it but it doesn't mean what it once did"

SANCHIN31, listen man, the important thing is that you remember who you are. Your not the belt you wear, your you. I'm sure all of you black belts have told your students at one time or another "karate's not about the belt" and that's true, it's about growth, expression, self discovery, and perfection of one's self. I know that, and I'm 17, and a green belt, see what I mean? the belt doesn't matter, it's what's in the mind and the heart.

But you know what? I'm sure you knew that already. But in closing I'll just say that there's nothing wrong with wanting the recognition, just to show where you stand in karate. but keep in mind you shouldn't need a belt to remind you who you are.

remember, mind and heart, if you've got that you've got all you need.

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#161273 - 06/28/05 10:54 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Crash]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I hope my question didn't imply that I am hung up on ranks.I just wear a blackbelt,no stripes or other things on it.
I was more referring to the technical differences in the high ranks.I really see no need for high dan grades myself.4th dan ought to do it,I think beyond that is just honorary.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#161274 - 06/28/05 10:58 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
Crash Offline
Buckle up!

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

I hope my question didn't imply that I am hung up on ranks.I just wear a blackbelt,no stripes or other things on it.
I was more referring to the technical differences in the high ranks.I really see no need for high dan grades myself.4th dan ought to do it,I think beyond that is just honorary.



Sorry, your right, I guess I went a bit far with the belt speech crap.

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#161275 - 06/29/05 12:02 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I hope my question didn't imply that I am hung up on ranks.I just wear a blackbelt,no stripes or other things on it.
I was more referring to the technical differences in the high ranks.I really see no need for high dan grades myself.4th dan ought to do it,I think beyond that is just honorary.




....Or maybe 5th Dan.

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#161276 - 06/29/05 03:31 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I always understood that 5th dan was considered the 'technical' peak within the system, often full teachers license would be issued at this point.

As a side point I also assumed this was the minamum rank to be considered for the shihan (expert licenses), renshi, kyoshi and hanshi titles.

5th dan to me should be supported by at least 20 consistant years of practise in the art.

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#161277 - 06/29/05 11:02 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Anyone in our dojo that is higher than 4th dan is expected to wear a black belt that has a red stripe running down the center of the belt, no little gold or white stripes to show your BB rank, just that belt. 4th dan and below can wear the strips if they want, some guys that are 2nd & 3rd still just wear the plain BB, it's really up to the person. There isn't a lot of belt pressure in our school.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#161278 - 06/29/05 06:35 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: JohnL]
Gino Offline
Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 410
Loc: New York State
After four and one-half years of training, I received my shodan in Kobayshi Shorin-ryu in 1996, nidan in 2000 and sandan in 2003. I'm told that the founder of our style, Shuguro Nakazato, believes that when a student, regardless of rank, has attained a technical proficiency and appropriate attitude for the rank he/she is at, then they're ready to test for promotion. I believe that Hanshi Nakazato feels no student should become complacent or comfortable in his/her rank, no matter what that rank is. If you're promoted, you tend to work harder and longer, you're more motivated to train and learn and live up to that rank. You're also indebted to your instructors for the promotion, thereby further increasing your motivation to learn and your dedication to the ryu. Sure, we all know a "renshi" or a "shihan" who's promotion was based more on politics then on technical proficiency or comprehension of the curriculum. But I believe that these are the exception, and not the rule. Don't let your experience with a few of these guys sour your opinion about higher ranks, in general. Most of them have earned their stripes, so to speak. And for what it's worth, I completely agree with your position about belt color. A dan rank has earned my respect from the moment we're introduced, unless he/she does something to change my mind. And, I'm no better than any new shodan but, if I'm told to prepare for a promotion to yondan, I'll do my best to insure that it won't be for political reasons.
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Gino has left the building.

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#161279 - 06/29/05 06:38 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
I felt added pressure at 3rd & 5th degree, as they're milestones of a sort. There's no real clear division between belts, and you can't judge a book by its cover (or obi). The current pressure is that the old guard is getting older around here and us 5th & 6th dans will have to run the show soon.
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#161280 - 06/30/05 06:00 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: JohnL]
Salek Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 474
Loc: Minnesota
I read the MOST EYE OPENING a while back... It could have been Musashis book of five rings, but im not sure... but it compared getting your black belt to loosing a cow...

Shodan- You have a feeling that you are missing something...
Nidan- you realize you are missing a cow
sandan- you find a hoof print
yondan- you see part of the cow
godan- you see the whole cow

I really want to give a more detailed explanation, and I will once I find the book...

I am not entirely sure that is correct, but thats all i can recall from memory
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#161281 - 06/30/05 09:19 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Salek]
Gino Offline
Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 410
Loc: New York State
That post is "udderly" fascinating.
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#161282 - 07/01/05 04:06 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Salek]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
That's great! MOOOOO
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#161283 - 07/01/05 04:42 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Salek]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

I read the MOST EYE OPENING a while back... It could have been Musashis book of five rings, but im not sure... but it compared getting your black belt to loosing a cow...





Holy COW! ...I think Musashi lived just a tad before belt grades were incorporated.

I've finished the thought:

RokuDan - You teach the cow.
NanaDan - You promote the cow.
HachiDan - The cow opens it's own dojo.
KuDan - You never see the cow anymore.
JuDan - You have a feeling that you are missing something...

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#161284 - 07/01/05 04:50 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Kintama]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
LOL! I don't remember any cows in the version that I read!

MOO-sashi?

BEEF! IT'S WHAT FUEDAL SWORDSMAN PHILOSPOHERS HAVE FOR DINNER!

*this message has been brought to you by the US Cattleman's association*
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#161285 - 07/01/05 05:39 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Kintama]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Kintama, Matt

You crack me up!
Sharon


Edited by still wadowoman (07/01/05 06:09 PM)
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#161286 - 07/02/05 09:08 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: still wadowoman]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
I didn't understand any of that, so I just sat and stared at it...
...then I got into the mooshin state
(still didn't understand any of it, though)

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#161287 - 07/02/05 03:28 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: MattJ]
Salek Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 474
Loc: Minnesota
sorry man... i dont remember what book its from.... but if i find it i will post

... me thinks i made a fool of myself


Edited by Salek (07/02/05 03:29 PM)

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#161288 - 07/02/05 03:33 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Salek]
Salek Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 474
Loc: Minnesota
so no one else has ever read that anywhere?
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#161289 - 07/06/05 02:02 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Salek]
MAGon Offline
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Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
No, at least I haven't. The closest story I ever heard to what you describe is that Musashi recomended using one kiai over and above any others: "COWABUNGA!"
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#161290 - 07/08/05 06:27 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Salek]
WADO Offline
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Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
There is a Zen text that likens enlightenment to finding a bull and riding the Bull. In one Aikido school I know of they call Sho-Dan losing the Bull then as you progress you seek the Bull then find the Bull then ride the bull Home then realize that you and the Bull are one and you become enlightened, they refer to that as master level. So by that analogy ho-Dan is the beginning of a journey or a search with the end result hopefully being mastery or enlightenment.

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#161291 - 07/09/05 01:43 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: WADO]
Bossman Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
This might help - it's our dan grade guidelines:

1st Dan standard would entail a sound knowledge of the grading syllabus to that level, able to perform it consistently with sufficient power, concentration, fluidity and awareness to produce the effect that the technique dictates. 1st Dan requires the applicant to be able to instruct the techniques to others in the standard manner and be able to teach students to 6th Kyu standard consistently. 1st Dan applicants should carry the recommendation from their Coach and have a proven history of good behaviour, good manners, good etiquette and have given support to their Club and Association environment. At 1st Dan it is expected that the successful candidate will commence portfolio building for NVQ Coach Level 2.

2nd Dan standard would entail a sound knowledge of the grading syllabus to that level and would have gained maturity and depth in their power, concentration, fluidity and awareness that only consistent practice and sufficient instruction can give. 2nd Dan requires the applicant to be able to teach students to 3rd Kyu standard consistently and their manner should now be a cross between “Instructor” and “Teacher”. A 2nd Dan should be taking responsibility for Club discipline and helping the students to develop the good manners, behaviour and etiquette necessary to develop themselves and be working in an advisory capacity under the guidance of a senior Coach. It is necessary to have a proven track record of having undertaken Association or Club responsibility and been able to see tasks through to completion. 2nd Dan candidates should have developed their NVQ level 2 portfolio to near completion.

3rd Dan standard would entail a sound knowledge of the grading syllabus to that level with added maturity and depth in their power, concentration, fluidity and awareness. 3rd Dan means senior instructor and “Teacher”, this means being able to interpret technique and the underlying concepts into their own words and still be correct. A 3rd Dan should be able to teach successfully and consistently to 1st Dan standard. A 3rd Dan should have the “insight” and “wisdom” necessary to be able to work with and help special needs students without monitoring from above and the patience and compassion to complement the strength and determination required achieving the seniority and warranting the respect. A 3rd Dan candidate should have a proven track record of having taken both Club and Association responsibility and having seen tasks through to completion. A 3rd Dan Candidate should also have their NVQ Level 3 portfolio near completion.

4th Dan grading can be honorary and/or a physical grading may be necessary. 4th Dan candidates should have a proven track record of working at senior level with a group of clubs or at Association Level. They should have “specialised” in some way and produced work and results that merit the grading award. If the Grading Committee have no personal knowledge of the applicant it would be expected that a report be produced containing evidence of the above and a physical grading be taken to prove technical competence.

5th Dan grading would be the same as 4th Dan but work and “specialisation” should now be at an Association and National level, with proof of the candidates' instruction being able to produce students to 3rd Dan level. Grading would comprise of reports, evidence, and recommendation from senior Association officers and may require a physical grading to prove technical competence.

6th Dan and above are honorary grades giving distinction for work done at a National and International level and can only be awarded by recommendation from the Technical Committee.

It is generally accepted that from 3rd Dan and above, you can grade your own students to 2 grades below your own grade, after which their further gradings will be overseen by a member of the Shi Kon Martial Arts Technical Committee. 3rd Dan upwards is by recommendation in writing to the Shi Kon Technical Committee who may require a physical grading if they are not aware of your technical standard.

In exceptional circumstances 1st and 2nd Dan instructors are able to grade under licence from the Shi Kon Technical Committee to 6th Kyu and 3rd Kyu respectively, but it is strongly recommended that only a Chief Instructor of 3rd Dan and above conduct gradings.

Minimum time periods between Dan Grades are as follows:

1st - 2nd Dan 2 years
2nd - 3rd Dan 3 years
3rd - 4th Dan 4 years
4th - 5th Dan 5 years
5th - 6th Dan 6 years
6th - 7th Dan 7 years
7th - 8th Dan 8 years
8th - 9th Dan 9 years
9th - 10th Dan 10 years

It must be stressed that these are the absolute minimum time periods between grades and any request for upgrading should be supported with evidence as to why seniority is warranted.

The minimum age for awarding adult 1st Dan is 16 years and 2nd Dan 18 years.
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supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#161292 - 07/09/05 02:47 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Bossman]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
well there you go...all disputes are solved with these convienent guidelines.
some problems though... what if someone doesn't have access to the following:

grading syllabus
Club or Association membership
NVQ level 2 portfolio
NVQ Level 3 portfolio
senior Association officers
Shi Kon Martial Arts Technical Committee

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#161293 - 07/09/05 03:45 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: shoshinkan]
Trevorg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 22
Quote:

I always understood that 5th dan was considered the 'technical' peak within the system, often full teachers license would be issued at this point.

As a side point I also assumed this was the minamum rank to be considered for the shihan (expert licenses), renshi, kyoshi and hanshi titles.

5th dan to me should be supported by at least 20 consistant years of practise in the art.





Quite the most sensible answer I have seen so far. I have been practising for 33 years and have achieved rokudan after a long struggle, and I have been honoured with a Shihan Menkyo.

It is normally the case in my experience that technical examinations are mandatory up to and including 5th dan, thereafter it is a question of recognising various steps through one's life with regard to their martial art. Usually higher gradings are given by a committee or grandmaster (I dont like using Soke) and when very high grades are given say 8-10 dan these are usually honorary and by the peer group.

The difficult thing is that there is a proliferation of styles and associations and governing bodies throughout the world, much changed since the early days when Japan dominated. Everyone moves on of course and things change, but the overall question that seems to bug people is : why do some styles have higher grades than others, differing grades, syllabuses, blah blah, and the answer is that it really doesnt matter any more.
How can anyone say that a 3rd dan in one style is any better or worse than one in another, or that an 8th has reached the pinnacle in their style but could have done better elsewhere !
Its all in the person. The individual knows their true level. Labels that others put on (or put on themselves) are irrelevant.

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#161294 - 07/09/05 04:54 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Kintama]
Bossman Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
I did qualify the posting by saying that it was OUR (as in Shi Kon) guidelines but most of those can be transposed to other associations or governing bodies.
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#161295 - 07/13/05 01:50 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Bossman]
WADO Offline
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Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
Interesting all the answers, I am somewhat of an Historian, or at least my job gives me easy access to many first hand historical texts, in the 50's and 60's the manuals all said that Black belt third degree is the highest rank in Karate given for technical ability and merit and that the highest rank is Black belt 5th degree. It seems in the 70's that shifted to 5th and 7th Dan, now I have heard of 10th degree black belts. Early manuals written by first generation students of Funakoshi, seemed to have clear Syllabi up to 3rd Dan and guidelines for 4th and 5h dan, I have not seen a any Karate manual before 1975 with criteria for 4th and 5th Dan.

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#161296 - 07/13/05 02:01 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: WADO]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
WADO,
Taht's very interesting and informative.Can you give us a reference or list the syllabus for the ranks back then? Seems like I read them before somewhere and they had age and time in rank requirements. Thanks.
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#161297 - 07/13/05 05:24 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: WADO]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
that is very interesting, would appriciate any reference material acess on this subject if possible.

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#161298 - 07/14/05 12:34 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: shoshinkan]
WADO Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
Sorry guys I pulled two books off m desk last night and left them on my desk so you have to wait till tomorrow, for citations. I was curious though as we have been talking about grading and my earlier post was based on reading the text portion of the books and remembering the phrase that black belt in the third degree is the highest rank given in karate for technical merit. The reason that phrase stuck in my head was that I hadn't heard the phrase black belt first degree black belt second degree and black belt third degree in a long time. I was looking at actual teting criteria in the books and there wasn't much detail in testing criteria. For example one book had a chart with three columns "required techniques" "forms" and "sparring"
For the shodan test under required techniques it listed basic techniques and combination techniques.
right lunge punch+left front kick
Right front kick+left reverse punch
things like that
then it listed
body shifting
slipping
proper body movement
and all the basic techniques.
Under forms it listed
Hean "we call it Pinan 1-5 5X each
Tekki 5x each
then the entry read additional at instructor and student discretion.
Finally under sparring it listed
Kihon
Sanbon Kumite
and free sparring under free sparring it listed knowledge of blocks strikes and kicks as well as distance timing and movement as appropriate.
I will post this books cite tomorrow, but the author was a student of Funakoshi, the book was first translated into english in 1954.
The other book was about 10 years later written by a second generation student of one of Funakoshi's original students th authors name I think was a guy named Jordan Roth who was American and it took a much more scientific approach.
The Shodan test in that was incorporated into something called special summer training or special winter training.
The test itself was a 2 mile run then basic skills practice from 8-10
then breakfast rest then kata again same kate 5Xeach
from 10:30 till about 12:30
then 30 minute rest lunch then 1 hour rest.
Then combination practice 2:30 till about 3:30
Then 40 minutes sparring
Finally the last part was dinner party celebrating completion of special training.
The other things I noted were that the 8th kyu tst had all the same listed requirements as the ShoDan test with the exception of Instructor dicretion Kata, and both books hinted at but didn't insist that 16 weeks of training were necessary to qualify for the first test. They both also stated that the following schedule should be maintained to qualify for promotion.
Sunday-Holiday no trainig
Monday-Intense difficult training
Tuesday-light training
Wednesday-Normal Training
Thursday normal training
Friday light training
Saturday-Intense hard training.
Their indication was that any day a student can't attend training with the exception of Sunday they should practice each technique and kata 5Xeach.
The American author, had very interesting charts comparing Karate Students at various levels to NCAA wrestlers, it appears did a series of tests between Wrestlers and Karateka, with the result that the Shodan students averaging about the same as NCAA wrestlers in endurance,spped and stregth, and outclassing NCAA wresters in reflex and reaction tests.
When I looked at the 8th kyu tests in both books those tests seemed a little tougher than a 4th kyu test in our school. For example 40 minutes of the 8th kyu test were devoted to kihon and sanbonkumite and free sparring I don't think we would normally expect more than kihon for 8th kyu and no free sparring generally till about 6th kyu and certainly not 40 minutes devoted to those till at least 4th kyu, with mabey 15 minutes of kihon and mabey 10-15 minutes of free sparring.

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#161299 - 07/14/05 04:16 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: WADO]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Sanchin, now that I've had time to go over some of the AKK techniques at different levels, I can weigh in on this. You more or less probably will feel a physical shift when you are about to make a progressive leap. There was a definite difference in how I felt training for my orange belt and my purple belt. There is a difference in the techniques and how they are constructed, and I felt myself learning how to properly execute these new styles of techniques. I've also been in the middle of one of those shifts since shortly after I got my blue belt, as I'm approaching the brown belt level, and there's been another shift in the techniques. Also, over time, I've learned several of the brown belt techniques (some I remember, some I've forgotten) and even a few of the black belt techniques. As I continue training (which I will be restarting soon) I feel myself shifting into green/brown mode.

So, the basic thesis of that is that there are different levels of training, not always matching the belt ranking, where you feel the difference.

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#161300 - 07/14/05 04:46 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I have just remembered i have seen alot of okinawan masters with three gold bars on their belts, in pictures. never paid much attention to it before.

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#161301 - 07/15/05 12:15 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: shoshinkan]
WADO Offline
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Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
The author of the early book I mentioned was named Hidetaka Nishiyama, it appears the book is rare as my Uncle who located it purchased it at a rare bookstore, it is supposedly the first Shotokan manual ever translated into English, it does not have a publisher or library of Congress number I will get that number from the library as I assume this book must have been reprinted. I will also try to scan and post some of the drawings and photos. This book stated that first through third Dan are given for technical skill 4th and 5th are given for teaching and contribution to the sport or art. It also stated that some systems have ranks above 5th Dan but the system established by Funakoshi only allows for 5 levels of Black belt.

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#161302 - 08/22/05 11:44 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
Shotokan_Nut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 43
Loc: Liverpool, England
you actually realize the transition when your taking your 5th dan in shotokan. The reason being you have to write a 2000 word thesis on any aspect of karate-do to be able to pass. You suddenly realise "hmm i know what to write, blah blah blah" and you end up telling them funakoshi this..and taikyoku shodan that... I Myslef am a 9th kyu so i cant say nothin
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#161303 - 08/23/05 01:21 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Shotokan_Nut]
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Why do people think you need to be at least 30 to be a Sandan? Is it because you should no longer be trusted?

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#161304 - 08/23/05 01:25 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Mark Hill]
Shotokan_Nut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 43
Loc: Liverpool, England
in shotokan its 21 for sandan
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#161305 - 08/23/05 08:13 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Shotokan_Nut]
JohnL Offline
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Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Quote:

in shotokan its 21 for sandan




No it isn't. It varies from association to association.
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#161306 - 08/23/05 08:24 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: JohnL]
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
I totally understand age limits.

As someone who is 23 and can be a Sandan well before thirty, I say, what would be the point in holding me back, if not forever?

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#161307 - 08/23/05 09:42 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Shotokan_Nut]
kenposan Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 633
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Quote:

you actually realize the transition when your taking your 5th dan in shotokan. The reason being you have to write a 2000 word thesis on any aspect of karate-do to be able to pass. You suddenly realise "hmm i know what to write, blah blah blah" and you end up telling them funakoshi this..and taikyoku shodan that... I Myslef am a 9th kyu so i cant say nothin




Would that be in APA format?
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#161308 - 08/24/05 02:45 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: kenposan]
Shotokan_Nut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 43
Loc: Liverpool, England
i dont really know because the web doesnt give enough information on this subject.

For JohnL, dont associations of the same style follow the teachings word for word and so forth. Or do they mix in their own teachings with it?
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