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#161261 - 06/28/05 09:44 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: nenipp]
Chatan1979 Offline

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Sanchin I too am a Nidan as well. There are times when i really feel like i am at the pinacle of my skills and there are days when i walk into the dojo and just feel like i still only understand a fraction of my art. The system of kenpo karte i study views Sandan as one who is at the physical peak of their skills. They are also then known as the Dojo Sensei. Now that is not to say that after sandan you let your physical skills deteriorate. But in our style, after Sandan, you are graded more on your experience, teaching ability, and how well you understand your craft. I have only been a nidan for a year anda half. I dont expect ill be testing for Sandan for a loooong time yet.. Good luck to you
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

#161262 - 06/28/05 11:56 AM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Chatan1979]
1973 Offline

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 20
A very interesting and difficult question. I believe this is where you start to go beyond the tangible mechanical aspects of technique and into some internal aspects. All hard to put into words. I will try and relate some of my own experience. First let me say I consider 3rd dan the begining of high rank and the begining of maturing in MA.Many may not agree and of course it depends on the person and the school. You say you are "feeling the transition" and that has also been my experience. I just kept training and at some point I began to feel I was reaching the next level. My economy of motion continued to improve i.e. accomplishing more with less and easier motion. You begin to get more of an "instinct" for the moves to put on an opponent during his/her attack. Whereas when I was in the lower ranks it seemed I had to rush to avoid an attack, unless they are very fast or I'm in close, attacks seem to be going almost in slow motion which gives you the feeling of having enough time to make your defense.I believe Musashi wrote "know ten thousand things by knowing one thing well" kind of like knowing many various applications of a single kata technique. You get those "Ah Ha!" moments more regularly. I could also feel my energy say at the knife edge of my heel with a side kick. It was like I was projecting my energy and myself (consciousness) to the end of my foot and seeing myself perform the kick. Not an out-of-body experience mind you but an in-body experience. This also gave me some concern because for the first time I felt I could kill someone if I made a clean hit with such a technique. It also gave me an appreciation for the wise use and power of what I was learning. Something we always talk about but, it's different when you feel it. I really can't say if some of this occurs through sheer repetition but the mechanical repetition alone probably won't do it without putting your mind (your-self)into your training. Some think there is no internal aspect to MA it's just sensationalized horse cookies to add to the mystique of the masters. One of the things we seek through MA is "the feeling", if it was just learning and performing technique I know I would not have lasted as long as I have. To finally answer, you will probably have some of these types of experiences if you continue to train hard and push yourself, as you advance through the ranks. There is more and I hope I haven't rambled on, maybe some of the other high ranks will chime in. It sounds like the rollercoaster is coming to the crest of the first hill for you so hang on it's a great ride. My guess is you won't be a Nidan much longer if you let it happen.

#161263 - 06/28/05 01:07 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: 1973]
Chatan1979 Offline

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
very well put 1973. I can relate to similar experiences.
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

#161264 - 06/28/05 01:15 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Chatan1979]
Cesar Offline

Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 15
Loc: new york
I got promoted to 3rd degree(Sandan). My last promotion was back in 2002. I got my shodan in 2000 and nidan the next year. I did move fast coming up the ranks. It took me about 3 years for shodan, a year for nidan. I think that I would of got my Sandan sooner, but took 2 years off. also, i do train 7 days a week. I train with my instructor 4-5 a week and the rest on my own. As far as different "feel" technique, understanding concepts will improve hopefully

#161265 - 06/28/05 01:30 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
I think 1973 has put it perfectly. "Mushin" is a Japanese term that has a few different meaning but it can apply to the sort of auto pilot type of feeling you get as you achieve higher rank, things seem to just take over automatically, auto pilot, a clear mind, with out thinking call it what you like but it is a product of repetition and training for years, condition=response type of thing. The other part of belt progression is for me personally I always feel that the simplest things need more work, my stances, basic kicks, pucnches, kata and so on. So in turn my personal goals are always being self critical on the most basic techniques. I think Master Hirokazu Kanazawa say's it perfect....Hirokazu Kanazawa

"The more I know, the more I climb, yet the mountain just gets higher. The more I try, the more I focus, the depth is limitless. There is no end in sight. That is karate, my life."
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

#161266 - 06/28/05 03:10 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: SANCHIN31]
bo-ken Offline

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I received my Shodan in August 2000 and my Nidan in December 2004. I feel a big different in my power lately mainly in my kata. Maybe part of that is because I have grown since then.

#161267 - 06/28/05 04:11 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: Cesar]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Once someone comes into the dojo with a blackbelt around their waist, that's it. I don't care if they're a shodan or 10th dan. (And believe me, since I came to the US I've met more 6th dans and above than you could ever believe existed.)

I got my 2nd dan about 15 years ago and have no intention of grading again.

Generally I find the people above 3rd dan tend to get promoted for things outside their acual ability and I'm severely uninterested in it. I'll confess that I find the people who feel the need to have markings on their belts to denote their dan grade, particularly amusing.

I also found Cesars post a good reason never tograde again.3 years to shodan, one year to nidan and one year to sandan. There's clearly no hope for the world.
John L

#161268 - 06/28/05 04:24 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: JohnL]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
It really is so bad, that 'valid' dan ranks, that spend a decade in-between higher dan grades and actually test and get promoted by valid Sensei of valid styles of valid types of MA...they get lost in the sea of invalid Artists.

Makes the whole system of rank meaningless. I agree that your art is what you make it, not what you advertise it as.

#161269 - 06/28/05 04:58 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: bo-ken]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shodan is the point at which a karateka has a firm foundation in the basics. That means that they can perform both basics and required kata without thinking. A shodan can ring fight, i.e, full contact kumite like K-1 kickboxing mixed with sabaki bareknuckle full contact knockdown karate rules. A shodan's body is strong and conditioned. Abdomen, forearms, shins, fists, feet, etc. A shodan can take a good blow as well as deliver one. A shodan is beginning to learn the principles of his/her style, not just technique performance.

Nidan is a transitional rank. In many styles one must be a Sandan to run a school, so Nidan does not have "special priviledges that Shodan does not. At Nidan a student studies the principles of an art through two man drills based in kata to develop the true skills of karate.

Sandan is the point at which a karateka has a good understanding of the principles of his/her karate style and is able to apply them. A sandan also must be able to teach the basics and kata of the style correctly as well as kumite. A sandan is also learning to teach those principles which he/she has learned at nidan.

Yondan is a transitional rank as well. Yondan is the point at which a karateka is learning to both teach the principles of his/her style and apply them in different ways. This is the level at which a karateka is developing the ability to free themselves from the kata. At more advanced levels the actual techniques themselves mean less and less and all that remains are the principles. The techniques are simply the means to express the principles of the art.

Godan is the level at which a karateka is able to teach and apply the principles of an art in an advanced manner.

#161270 - 06/28/05 05:03 PM Re: Transitions in dans [Re: JohnL]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA

I got my 2nd dan about 15 years ago and have no intention of grading again.

John, when I had the pleasure of training with you I did not ask your grade because I felt it irrelevant.

After seeing you teach, if I had had to guess I would have said 4th or 5th Dan. If you had continued to grade after nidan you would be around that now.

I love being right
Anyone mind if I sit down?

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