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#160735 - 06/27/05 01:50 AM Information needed on style
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I am feverishly looking for imformation on Shoalin Pek Kwar with little result. Anyone got the goods?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#160736 - 06/27/05 04:28 AM Re: Information needed on style [Re: Chen Zen]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

"Pek Kwar" sounds to me like it's the Fukien dialect pronounciation of "Ba Gua"
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#160737 - 06/27/05 05:09 AM Re: Information needed on style [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Its a the 'monkey' kung fu.
Monkey kung fu is a very powerfull form of kung fu and as you probably guessed it folloews the movements of monkeys: it has very low centre of gravity. Very agile footwork, small quick steps and lots of rolling and leaps. The staff is very involved within the system. The arms are thrown out and try to achieve long reaches. The techniques of getting in and out of someones guard are a bit like boxing (darting in and out) but much lower stance. Hope this helps a little. My knowledge is very limited on the animals. I know the staff monkey form so I can gather from that how it reflects on to the empty hand.
There is a lot of crap on the net. Contrary to belief its not part of the praying mantis style.

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#160738 - 06/27/05 09:51 AM Re: Information needed on style [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
A human is not a monkey

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#160739 - 06/27/05 09:55 AM Re: Information needed on style [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
a plane is not a bird but on what do you think the designs were based on?

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#160740 - 06/27/05 11:45 AM Re: Information needed on style [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
i think you'll find that modern planes do not have flapping wings. your comparison is most unfitting

we are talking about human fighting, using the body that human beings have. this is not comparable to attempts to make flying objects (something abstracted from the human body) which were initially inspired by flying creatures - although all attempts to fly using their mechanisms failed due to obvious differences in scale.

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#160741 - 06/27/05 12:05 PM Re: Information needed on style [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
you obviously do not get my point and obviously you have no idea about planes.

One. The similarity between planes and birds is not the wings but the lift that gets created under thrust conditions. But then again I am probably wasting my breath since you are not willing to listen to anything else.

Secondly, based on the actions of a fish a new type of underwater swimming was used by a 16 yearold girl in the 1999 world championships for butterfly 50 meters. She broke the world record. Does she have the body of a a fish? NO. Did she apply principles by studying the fish? YES

Are you saying that all the animal arts of kung fu are crap and not applicable to fighting? Cause thats what it sounds like.

Is it me or are there a few too many people here that have no idea what they are talking about?

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#160742 - 06/27/05 12:58 PM Re: Information needed on style [Re: MAGr]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
MAGr, it isnt you.
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#160743 - 06/27/05 08:09 PM Re: Information needed on style [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
Please do not let this degenerate into the use of insults or derogatory comments, I would prefer to keep this as a friendly discussion/exchange of opinions. I see no need for you to make an insulting comment suggesting that I have "no idea" what I am talking about

Quote:

The similarity between planes and birds is not the wings but the lift that gets created under thrust conditions.




I studied fluid dynamics and mechanics for 3 years, so I'm pretty sure I remember how a plane manages to fly. In order for anything to fly - bird, insect, rocket or fribee etc - you fundamentally need to generate lift. This is a consequence of the physical laws and their expression on this planet. Flight is highly constrained - fighting is not. Hence why bats, dinosaurs, birds all employ similar wing structures; hence why gliding creatures all employ similar structures.

Quote:

Secondly, based on the actions of a fish a new type of underwater swimming was used by a 16 year old girl in the 1999 world championships for butterfly 50 meters.




Whether or not someone mimicked a certain type of fish/aquatic mammal movement for underwater sections f butterfly (itself defined by the use of a specific and limited motion) is still not really the point in my opinion.

You are talking about the mechanics of moving through a fluid using rear limb muscles, this is constrained in a manner analogous to flight. Once again, movement through water is highly constrained - hence why aqautic mammals evolved very similar mechanisms to fish for movement through water; hence why aquatic dinosaurs also evolved similar mechanisms.

Quote:

Are you saying that all the animal arts of kung fu are crap and not applicable to fighting? Cause thats what it sounds like.




There is no need to become aggressive/abusive, I am providing my opinion with the logic behind it - please try not to ridicule anything I say simply because it is not what you said.

My argument is that if your goal is to be the most effective human fighter you can be, then although animal styles of kung fu will have some usefulness, they are implicitly constrained. They may share some concepts with arts such as Wing Chun, JKD etc but they also contain many excessive movements. In my opinion, it is of greater benefit to study human-specific biomechanics and develop minimal and effective movements to fight other humans and increase the chance of success.

We are talking about humans fighting humans, not machines flying and not humans swimming in water. Human biomechanics are very different to those of a monkey. Of course animal-influenced forms of kung fu cannot be "useless" otherwise it would have quickly been noted, but I am saying that this form of style is not most effective for human fighting

This is my opinion. If you believe that incorporating movements influenced by monkey, tiger, mantis etc are of absolute benefit to improving a human's ability to fight another human then I would like to hear specific reasons for this in order to understand your reasoning - not just attempted analogies with the highly constrained physics of movement through fluids. I look forward to reading your ideas

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#160744 - 06/27/05 11:25 PM Re: Information needed on style [Re: someotherguy]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
someotherguy, i thought ur original question was what Pek Kwar was? Yet when someone was kind enough to provide info on the style all u do is bash that style. what is ur beef, man! It is obvious that the human body is not like a monkey and monkey style does not strictly imitates the movements of a monkey. Animal styles do not seek to copy the animal but to use some of the principles used by animals that r helpful to good use.

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#160745 - 06/28/05 12:36 AM Re: Information needed on style [Re: Chen Zen]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
Apparently Pek Kwar is not monkey style.

Found web stuff that indicates Pek Kwar is cantonese for Pi qua.
_________________________
I'm sorry, I was just imaging what you would look like with duct tape over your mouth

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#160746 - 06/28/05 02:54 AM Re: Information needed on style [Re: Chen Zen]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Tai Shing Pek Kwar IS monkey style kung fu. The direct translation isn't "monkey kung fu" but it is the name of a popular Chinese system. I just went to Google and typed in pek kwar, got several hits. Typed in shaolin pek kwar and got several more hits including this one.

http://tspk.com/english/pekkwar.htm


Someotherguy,
No one ever said a human was a monkey. MAGr was only saying that some of the movements and techniques are BASED on a monkey’s movement. Just like early airplane design were BASED on birds, more specifically the shape of the wing in order to create lift. An airplane isn't a bird but it still flew because of the observations of birds. For someone who claims to have studied "studied fluid dynamics and mechanics for 3 years" you seem to be having a hard time grasping this basic concept. You don't have to be a monkey to mimic one. The world is full of advancements based on the OBSERVATIONS of other non related components. There are a variety of Chinese martial arts that are derived from the observations of animals, insects and reptiles.

You complain that MAGr was committing personal attacks but your second post directed at him was condescending. It's not his fault you didn't make the connection.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#160747 - 06/28/05 08:57 AM Re: Information needed on style [Re: nekogami13 V2.0]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
Ok yes, this kind of discussion should not have been started in a post looking for info on this style. But I will just make one last reply to address some points made:

Quote:

You complain that MAGr was committing personal attacks but your second post directed at him was condescending. It's not his fault you didn't make the connection




I simply think that the connection is tenuous. Compared to the private message MAGr sent me, I think my 2nd post is pretty tame.

Quote:


No one ever said a human was a monkey. MAGr was only saying that some of the movements and techniques are BASED on a monkey’s movement. Just like early airplane design were BASED on birds, more specifically the shape of the wing in order to create lift.




Yes, I agreed that plane design like aquatic vehicle design was influenced by living organisms - but that the principles of lift are universal to flying objects. The cross-sectional shape of the first mechanical wings, mechanical fins, helicopter blades, bird wings etc are the same - what can be done to fly is highly constrained and living organisms converge on similar solutions because the options are extremely limited. This means that human designs for flight are often closely related to animal designs.

Recent studies on humpback whale fins revealed that the "bumps" on their fins actually make their movement through water more energetically efficent and allow for greater mobility than a smooth fin. They now plan to use this design in wings and rudders. This is again due to the highly constrained nature of moving through fluids which greatly limits possibilities.

I am not denying that animals played an influential role in the development of flying machines, but what I am saying is that the comparison between this and fighting is not particularly useful, because flying can only be achieved by employing certain limited mechanisms. In constrast, when two humans fight, a whole multitude of expressions can be applied.

Quote:

You don't have to be a monkey to mimic one. The world is full of advancements based on the OBSERVATIONS of other non related components. There are a variety of Chinese martial arts that are derived from the observations of animals, insects and reptiles.




Noone has yet explained to me the specific benefit of mimicking aspects of a monkey's movement for fighting. I can fully appreciate the value in observing animals and their movement - spring loading, non-telegraphic attacks on prey (mantis) etc. And if these concepts are applied to a human fighter then it could be of absolute benefit to improving fighting, but this does not seem to be what animal styles are solely about.

What I am asking for is that someone explain to me the specific benefit of mimicking a movement or character of an animal as opposed to applying concepts. Personally I do not consider abstract comparisons to flying machines to be helpful for the reasons I have described.

I would be genuinely interested in understanding the specifics of why people consider animal-styles of kung fu to be of practicality in real fighting (don't get me wrong, I think the forms and movements developed look beautiful and skillful). So I would request that someone send me a private message with their opinion (so that this post can be left to those posting information on the style for Chen). thank you

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#160748 - 06/28/05 09:11 AM Re: Information needed on style [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
What you refer to as beatyfull bu impractical are the forms. What you see on tv are the forms. Fighting never looks like the forms. If someone sees the si lum tao form from wing chun, they wouldnt understand its pactical application. Ok there are some excessive movement, but the forms are supposed to teach you balance, grace, breathing, flexibility, and the movement. When they fight it doesnt look likt that. The forms contain the principles, they are part of a martial art. There are two words in martial arts. MARTIAL and ART. Just because its not 100% practical, and wouldnt stand up in the UFC does not make it invalid. Some people appreciate grace of movement, they apreciate meditation, thats not going to save you ion a fight is it? Not everything has to be 100% about fighting. And that is not to say that those animal styles are not applicablre to combat, its just that their sole purpose is not combat.

Thety contain 'secrets' and 'treasures' within the forms that can be applied to combat, they contain grappling techniques, they contain striking methods, different types of fist allignment.

Again, if you dont know then all you have to do is ask, rather than dismiss.

be well

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#160749 - 06/28/05 12:24 PM Re: Information needed on style [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
This is what I was talking about, the use in fighting. If you wish to do MA for non-combat reasons then of course that is perfectly acceptable and I never claimed it was "invalid" if you seek non-combat goals from MA. Your answer has essentially agreed with what I was originally proposing - that animal styles are not the most practical for fighting.

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#160750 - 06/28/05 12:33 PM Re: Information needed on style [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Its both!!!!
Through the forms you get the application of the effective techniques. The combat non combat goals are interklinked, they should be interlinked. Thats why it MARTIAL ARTS, notice again TWO words. They are intelinked and interdependent. Fighting ability can come through grace, and flexibility. Awareness of surroundings and positioning can come through the forms, also the ability to concentrate comes through the forms. Yes you will learn to defend yourself much quicker if yuo do boxing or Bjj. But martial arts for the people who developed these arts are a development of the body and mind, and of the fighting spirit and of fighting techniques.
I have not agreed with what you are proposing. READ MY SIGNATURE!
You CAN use them in fighting, just not right away, its a different type of development that has emphasis on both aspects of MAs the martial and the art, and they acnnot be separated. Any one who practices the martial without the art is not a martial artist, he is a street fighter, or a sportsman, or a thug.

Its the old question of are katas applicable on the street? well yes and no...they are applicable because they contain the principles but they are not because you are not going to do a kata on someone.

Please try to understand.

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#160751 - 06/28/05 01:37 PM Re: Information needed on style [Re: someotherguy]
Toubabo Koomi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 8
Someotherguy, I think that getting the most from an animal form depends completly on the practitioner and the teacher, not the form itself.


Edited by Toubabo Koomi (06/28/05 01:39 PM)

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#160752 - 06/28/05 01:39 PM Re: Information needed on style [Re: MAGr]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Someotherguy, you ask what is the benefit to using animal or insect styles when fighting. I think there is a large benefit. A lot of the tactics that animals use when they fight are useful.

When two strikers fight, it is usually in an upright position. The two combatants use footwork and timing to create and opening and then strike. Using some concepts from monkey kung fu, you would alter the height and angles of attack, thus adding new dimensions and possibly catching the other person off guard.

Also, some people are thrown off by the movements themselves when you use a style that imitates an animal. They are not sure how to counter against something so foriegn to them.

I have used a few animal style techniques in sparring in the past and it does throw off the opponent. If it is unusual, that distraction alone may be enough to give you a slight edge.

I have found that simply by changing my striking hand from a fist to a leopard hand strike, in some cases I am able to hit a smaller target more effectively, fit a strike into a target area that I normally could not hit, and increase the damage by being able to apply more force to a smaller area.

Just like any other Art, animal styles, if applied properly can be effective, beneficial, and very dangerous.
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#160753 - 06/28/05 09:01 PM Re: Information needed on style [Re: RazorFoot]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
Thank you Razorfoot for actually addressing my question, and providing your opinion on how these styles are useful in real fighting. I will think about your comments.

This was much more useful than being told to "please try to understand", as if I am a stupid child failing to grasp the single truth being spoon fed to me. MAGr and I obviously have very different approaches to martial arts.

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#160754 - 07/01/05 02:16 AM Re: Information needed on style [Re: someotherguy]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Heres what Ive found so far before checking the links provided on this thread.

shaolin Pek Kwar was derived for the use of imperial Guards to protect the emperor. The system was to be used solely for this purpose and was strictly forbidden to be used or taught for any other purpose and was punishable by death. The style was mainly low stances and arcing open hand chops.

Thats what Ive found. I understand that there is sopposed to be some link to Monkey Style Kung Fu, but Im not sure where or what that pertains to since Monkey is a style whose imformation is readily available and this is supposed to be a highly secretive system. So I remain skeptical of many of the things Ive found relating it to the Monkey lineage.

Also Ive found that it was a system designed for the quick incapacitation and death of the opponent. From what Ive seen and understand of Monkey style, it just doesnt fit. Monkey is aggressive enough, relying more on evasiveness and potshotting that straight forward aggression. Again this is what Ive gathered. Perhaps I am wrong.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#160755 - 07/01/05 11:46 PM Re: Information needed on style [Re: Chen Zen]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
It has been added to the monkey style-taught side by side.
They are still 2 seperate arts, that is my understanding.
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I'm sorry, I was just imaging what you would look like with duct tape over your mouth

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