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#160514 - 06/26/05 03:00 PM Naihanchi / Tekki
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Hi its been a long time since I last posted. I am still reasearching the tekki kata. I have a question for you all:

Every one seems to accept that origionally there was only one naihanchi. Either the three were origionally one whole kata or that someone(usually its claimed Itosu) added the to the now practiced naihanchi shoudan.

My question is HOW do we know that origionally there was one naihanchi? And are there any texts or accounts to back this up?

Funakoshi talks of three in his early text "karate-jutsu" as does Choki Motobu in "watashi no karate-jutsu"
Thanks for your help!
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#160515 - 06/26/05 04:30 PM Re: Naihanchi / Tekki [Re: creative]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Creative,

There is no real documentation to turn to. Too often one book just repeats what was in another book, and as the Okinawan's in the past didn't document their art, whatever one's instructor told one had to be accepted.

Depending where one looks there are claims Matsumura taught Niafanchi 1 and 2, and Itsou created Niafanchi 3. And the contentions on 4 nand 5 do not seem to have any credibal historcal legs to them.

But looking in other books you can find other answers too.

Reality check, all that truly matters is what you were trained to do, even if its Naifanchi 15.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
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#160516 - 06/27/05 09:03 AM Re: Naihanchi / Tekki [Re: Victor Smith]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
i think there have a been a few writings about Choki Motobu possibly doing all 3 as one kata. In fact he did it so much that it became nicknamed Motobu's kata. I seem to remember reading this in an article of Classical Fighting arts mag. Also if you are looking to do some research on Tekki/Naihanchi, there is an interesting book out called Barefoot Zen by Nathan Johnson. He looks at the kata from a very different approach as a Two man drill.
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#160517 - 06/27/05 01:56 PM Re: Naihanchi / Tekki [Re: creative]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I have been told by various teachers on Okinawa that Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura taught the kata Naifanchin.

Naifanchin which started as one kata, was later broken into Naihanchi Shodan and Naihanchi Nidan.

Later Itosu created Naihanchi Sandan.

Take it for what it's worth, as I can cite no references, and rely only on oral tradition.

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#160518 - 06/27/05 06:05 PM Re: Naihanchi / Tekki [Re: Chatan1979]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

There is no real documentation to turn to. Too often one book just repeats what was in another book, and as the Okinawan's in the past didn't document their art, whatever one's instructor told one had to be accepted.

Depending where one looks there are claims Matsumura taught Niafanchi 1 and 2, and Itsou created Niafanchi 3. And the contentions on 4 nand 5 do not seem to have any credibal historcal legs to them.




I know, there seems to be the same information where ever you look with a few variations. Does nobody know where this information came from though? What would be great would be if someone had some first hand information from a student of Itosu. Does no-one think that it is strange that neither Funakoshi nor motobu, both of whom trained with Itosu, mention that Itosu created such a great kata.

Quote:

But looking in other books you can find other answers too.



Hopefully, I've got Mark Bishops Okinawan karate on order now. Hopefully that may shed some more light

Quote:

Reality check, all that truly matters is what you were trained to do, even if its Naifanchi 15.



Upto naihanchi 15...in kiba dachi I'm happy with my tekki/naihanchi, just looking for more information, cant be a bad thing. Thanks for your post.

Quote:

i think there have a been a few writings about Choki Motobu possibly doing all 3 as one kata. In fact he did it so much that it became nicknamed Motobu's kata. I seem to remember reading this in an article of Classical Fighting arts mag.



In his book he demonstrates naihanchi shoudan, and only mentions the second two kata. That would suggest to me that he practiced the kata separately.

Quote:

Also if you are looking to do some research on Tekki/Naihanchi, there is an interesting book out called Barefoot Zen by Nathan Johnson. He looks at the kata from a very different approach as a Two man drill.



Yeah, i have that book and would also reccomend it to anyone interested in naihanchi (or sanchin or tenshyo).Again though Nathan johnson only presents an idea, but cant really back it up other than the fact that when he joins the kata as he does he can perform his wrist and arm manipulation drill. No refferences are given. Thanks again for your posts
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"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#160519 - 06/27/05 06:21 PM Re: Naihanchi / Tekki [Re: creative]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Thought provoking....

Motobu and Funakoshi both say that naihanchi is a shourei-ryu form. Would this suggest that the kata are all origional or just that this is the lineage from which they decended?

Motobu disagrees (as does matsumura according to motobu's text) about the way Itosu performs niahanchi(specifically the stance). I have read that motobu-ryu only practice naihanchi 1 and 2. If it was itosu who created naihanchi 3 wouldnt it make sense that motobu wouldnt practice it due to him thinking Itosu had not mastered the naihanchi?

My head hurts


Edited by creative (06/27/05 06:22 PM)
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#160520 - 08/04/05 11:19 AM Re: Naihanchi / Tekki [Re: creative]
1961 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 26
Hi !
It is not SO serious. One, two or three...
Sorry my mind, but i think that Naihanchi are the ship fighting. Ship! And not for defence the cargo, but for attack from water...
And not ONE line - right or left. But two lines!!! Two fighters from right and ets. Also some door fighting. After the moving...

Br.


Edited by 1961 (08/04/05 11:21 AM)

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