FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 18 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BUJU, Pilsungkarate, ALF, old1, Leonar
22928 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ronin1966 3
futsaowingchun 2
ergees 2
GojuRyuboy13 2
AndyLA 1
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Forum Stats
22928 Members
36 Forums
35584 Topics
432513 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#397586 - 05/28/08 08:43 AM Reversing embusen for kata bunkai
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
There are only one or 2 moves in goju kata that I "reverse" in bunkai and I'm not sure what to make of these. I wonder whether -

(a) the kata were deliberately designed that way "as a code" (something I think is a bit overstated nowadays); or
(b) the kata were deliberately designed that way for an application I haven't seen; or
(c) the kata were deliberately designed that way for training or symbolic purposes (eg. stepping forward on the last move in gekisai dai ichi), not for any particular bunkai; or
(d) the kata have been wrongly passed down in respect of a particular move.

Consider the following move from sanseru kata at about 7:38 in the following video of Higaonna Morio sensei: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGBdkOYQGoE.

In most kaiha it is performed as a leg catch with a step back - see the following video at about 0:48: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoXQbRCZNmQ.

The problem is that the kata is performed with a step forward. I think it is practically impossible to catch a kick as it moves out - you stand a much better chance of letting the kick pass its maximum velocity and then catch it just before/just as he is about to retract it. To my mind this requires a step back, not forward.

Tou'on ryu (and some goju schools) make sense of the leg catch by going right down to the ground and scooping at the ankle. I think this has "hairs" on it, but it does make some sense of the move.

My best guess is however that the move was probably meant to involve a step back. What say you? Similar moves in CMA have a step back in the form. Consider this move at 0:26 which is a block but can be converted into a leg catch:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDaHVXzmccE.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

Top
#397587 - 05/28/08 09:14 AM Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Question: if you work the kata backwards do you hear lyrics about the devil? j/k

My newbie 2 cents: I don't think working a kata backwards has any positive benefits. I think it's better to work off of 'keys' and see how they can be plugged into the kata. For example, one key idea could be to look for tai sabaki/off line movements and interpret as a throw. Going through the kata, looking for throws, and what came immediately before and after to find discreet sections. What comes out of that? Nothing? Move on.

Top
#397588 - 05/28/08 10:11 AM Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Thanks harlan

You might be right. But how would you explain the example above?
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

Top
#397589 - 05/28/08 10:46 AM Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Dan,

Depends on where you want to catch the leg. Moving backwards is easier to time,but you would catch the end of the leg. Stepping forward gets you 'in' ,as is the nature of goju, for grappling techniques.

The bunaki shown in the clip is incorrect to me. Notice how he steps back to catch the leg, then steps forward. Too much wasted movement there. What keeps the attacker at bay while you go back and forth?

Another thing to consider is this. I see people's bunkai as someone always attacking from directly infront of you and from a distance. It changes the dynamics a bit if you think of your attacker located somewhere people might actually attack from,lol.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#397590 - 05/28/08 11:45 AM Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Dan:

Using link #2 any chance that "catch" is on the wrong side (ie should be done to the outside rather than the inside)??? That would make the forward movement very beneficial...

What about the forward motion itself (ie changing the angle)? Such that not straight but angled is how you end up, as the clip showed. The leg lock shown obviously works but could have range issues on the inside depending on the reach and how the opponents ankle is cradled/locked.

Lots of us have struggled with assorted kata and the same correct direction issue.

Keep exploring... never hurts.

Jeff


Edited by Ronin1966 (05/28/08 11:49 AM)

Top
#397591 - 05/28/08 11:56 AM Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai [Re: BrianS]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Brian:

Re: too much wasted movement (eg step back THEN forward) could be a guaranteed safety factor there? Some movements I do not want to do even slowly in order to avoid damaging my partner guarantee their safety. Such that I would hold the weight, make SURE I've got it then go forward with that leg... prevent doing the forward shift/drop and smashing someone to the ground too quickly...

Possible?

Jeff

Top
#397592 - 05/28/08 12:03 PM Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Heck...you step back to off-balance someone or drag them back/down with you...and step in to close distance/knee/strike.

Top
#397593 - 05/28/08 12:04 PM Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai [Re: harlan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello:
<< if you work the kata backwards do you hear lyrics about the devil? j/k


<<find discreet sections.

Subtilities, nuances... yup!

<<What comes out of that? Nothing? Move on.

No, no, no... keep exploring, keep working on that, make CERTAIN there is "nothing" there for months. Abandon it prematurely, instantly and I miss valuable pieces, parts. Unpopular but true... that "mold" stuff took a while to grow, the lighbulb more than one attempt to figure out the right way. Maybe the box IS empty, but I'll keep watching/playing with it and who knows what I'll find...

Jeff

Top
#397594 - 05/28/08 12:07 PM Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I didn't give a time frame.

I know for a fact some Goju teachers will work on something for years, move on, and then go back to it with some added insights.

Top
#397595 - 05/28/08 02:11 PM Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Heck...you step back to off-balance someone or drag them back/down with you...and step in to close distance/knee/strike.




Yes. I was commenting specifically on the bunkai shown in the video in relation to sanseru.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga