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#386025 - 03/11/08 03:02 AM Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Bascially a flow drill for the whole kata.

I learned the standard one's for Gekiha (don't do this one much anymore), Gekisai, we are now messing around with the Saifa one (I believe it was created by Seikichi Toguchi), and a Seisan drill of my teacher's. I've also seen a very nice one for Sepai my teacher created
(that's Sepia for Jude), but we don't actively practice that one yet, just "pieces" from the kata.

What do you guys think are the possible plusses and minuses of this kind of training?

Most people seem to equate it to yakusoku kumite (had a discussion on e-budo about it not to long ago), and their opinions good or bad seem to to stem from this.

For my own part i've found this kind of training to be extremely valuable as long as you keep mixing it up, changing the dynamics etc, alot of the time i've found students seem to get the most out of it if I take one to three movements from the drill, and focus on those in a more intense manner.

Here's some examples of this kind of training:

Koryu Uchinadi I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9-OlSjoJ4M

The standard Gekisai one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs

Never seen this one before, seems unique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQeltFd_EKI

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks

One common theme in the discussion on the other forum which came up is that this kind of training decreases in value as skill increases, and that once one passes a point training in such a way might actually be detrimental.

Not sure if I agree fully, but I do think that in some ways the argument has merit.

As we train our skills should become less cookie cutter, and clearly we should be capable of thinking outside the box, even in terms of non-sparring drills. Also i should mention at least in my training the context of these drills was sort of as a "surface bunkai" that you can practice with a partner, i.e. the simple version of what could be in the kata.

Obviously this kind of thing is never a substitute for the more resistant practice, and arguably it has it's pitfalls.

So what is your opinion on this method of training?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/11/08 03:32 AM)

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#386026 - 03/11/08 04:43 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
My student thoughts

Quote:



Koryu Uchinadi I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9-OlSjoJ4M






Interesting intepretation for modern use.


Quote:


A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks





Looks to my student eye the use of one of the principles of white crane at the beggining.
The same might have been achieved with trapping skills.
I think years gone by Naihanchi might have also have been practiced at some along with those techniques from the original kata they stemmed from.
I think some of the escapes were in there.
I Like it. Thought according to some there were no ground grappling in kata?


The drills you practice Do any of them involve the development of trapping skills and/or the complete use of all the techniques/principles for that specific kata?

I would realy like to see the drills you practice for them and for sepai, including use of hikite. If you have a mind to post them sometime. Do you achieve hikite through trapping or the white crane principle shown in the grappling video?

After it has been pointed out to me ,I am in agreement with Ed. The thought about the demise of trapping skills.
Because it is considered holding in competition sparring and is illegal.
I dont train for competition orientated karate . I think you might.

Jude




Edited by jude33 (03/11/08 05:14 AM)

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#386027 - 03/11/08 06:21 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think much karate, ie the general modern movement towards sport has seen a real downward spiral in 'drill' training.

and a real increase in 1 step, 2 step and even 3 step 'fixed' sparring, often to get the next grade along with the relevant kata for a grade. often at semi contact/full contact strike range as well.

So all of those links I feel are really posative, they have different strengths and weakneses for sure, but then again they are not the only thing practised within the respective arts, im sure of that.

Couple of comments, I don't see much merit outside of real early training/demos in marching through a whole kata with a partner in a real 'fixed' way, against karate like attacks - many disagree with me but it is not a practice I bother with, prefering to isolate aspects of the kata and work them against common methods of assault.

the ground grappling one, come on that wasn't ground grappling that was compliant close work that ended up on the floor for a little bit - nice drill by the way but thats not grappling 'proper', by a long shot.

I do appluad to a point all of the methods shown, I may work slightly different (in fact much simpler) but I do see real value in these methods over the more Traditional Japanese Ippon Kumite's etc etc.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#386028 - 03/11/08 06:40 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: shoshinkan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Hey Zach...you've managed to find the...one...video of our dojo/sensei on the internet! LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs

I can't stand this 'drill'. Haven't 'moved up' to what you call 'flow drills' for advanced kata yet...but am finding the one for Kakuha/o (sp?) enjoyable.

I don't spar...so this kind of drill is really the closest I get to 'resistant' training...outside of bunkai. So, as a beginner, of course my vote is a 'thumbs up for this kind of drill.

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#386029 - 03/11/08 07:14 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: harlan]
harleyt26 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 75
Loc: Summerfield,Florida U.S.A.
Hi Harlan,I had not seen the video before,very cool.First thing I was reminded of was Kimo sensei saying"just do the kata,you do know this kata don't you".
Tom Hodges
_________________________
Thomas Hodges, train 100 practice 1000

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#386030 - 03/11/08 07:42 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks




thats a first: pre-arrainged ground grappling?

I look at these drills and the examples above as mostly for demonstration. Although they can help to build some fundamental skills, timing, distance, flow, etc. but (I believe) if worked on exclusively, they create more bad habits than good ones.

I guess my verdict is that they are disposable past basics unless you plan to teach them as supplimentary to early-on learning....in which case you keep them, in order to pass it on.

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#386031 - 03/11/08 07:51 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: harleyt26]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Have you been spying??? I hear this every week. 'Just do the kata.'

Quote:

Hi Harlan,I had not seen the video before,very cool.First thing I was reminded of was Kimo sensei saying"just do the kata,you do know this kata don't you".
Tom Hodges




But seriously...question for Ed...if you think this is a disposable 'basic' exercise...what is your replacement for it? Sparring? Free form drills?


Edited by harlan (03/11/08 07:57 AM)

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#386032 - 03/11/08 07:58 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
by disposable, I mean: 'go over it a little while, then move on to something else and dont look back'

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#386033 - 03/11/08 08:07 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
specifics? what would you replace it with?

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#386034 - 03/11/08 09:02 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: harlan]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

specifics? what would you replace it with?




Not wishing to answer for Ed, but I think ,
hopefully if Zach posts their methods they might have some
of the answers. Hope they include Sepai.


Waiting in ernest.

Still like the ground drill though. As purely a practice drill that is.

Ed.

Quote:

by disposable, I mean: 'go over it a little while, then move on to something else and dont look back'



As a student I refrained from making simular comments.
I think if I had stated that it would have ended up a mile long of bickering again. My attempts at mushin would have become mushin. The drills in a way reminded me of very early wado training. Had a purpose then but not much good now.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (03/11/08 09:16 AM)

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