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#159108 - 06/22/05 08:19 PM Sudden Stab from the Front
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Do you find that this is the most difficult knife defense?

I don't feel in control of the knife hand with the diagonal block..even when I know that I will gain control of it within a few seconds.

This is the knife defense that really puts me ill at ease, no matter how many times I have done it.

I would rather deal with knife to the throat from the back than upward stab from the front..

Anyone else have a problem with this?
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#159109 - 06/23/05 01:37 AM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: RangerG]
madmattg Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Cant say I do, it is one of the easiest defences. How are you being taught are yoiu throwing the hips back properly?
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#159110 - 06/23/05 07:34 AM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: madmattg]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I am not having problems with the mechanics of the defense, it's just that few seconds of not having a grip on the knife hand. I like to have complete control of the knife hand from the start..anything else gives the attacker the ability to nip away at you with the knife point. I am going to work on this defense a lot more. I have to get comfortable with the mental side. There are two variations of this (like most of the defenses), so I guess I should practice the variation to see if I like it better.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#159111 - 06/23/05 06:36 PM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: RangerG]
Equis Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 101
Loc: in my pants.
What technique are you using RangerG?? The one we do we block and try to punch the attackers face at the same time followed by a nice Machine Gun Takedown.

I don't recall a controlling of the knife hand version. The instructor tells us not to do that because that just makes you concentrate on grabbing the hand and probally getting stabbed soon afterwards.

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#159112 - 06/23/05 06:46 PM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: Equis]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
We deflect the knife attack with our forearm, while turning our hips(body defense) simultaneously. While the forearm is deflecting, you are stepping into the attacker while grabbing the wrist of the knife hand, then taking it away or taking him down if he doesn't let go.

the point of stepping in as you deflect and grab is that most knife attackers will not just try and stab you once, they will pull back and try again. By stepping in, you shorten the distance between the two people and gain an advantage. While he recoils, you are going in with him, using his monmentum against him

.02
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#159113 - 06/23/05 07:02 PM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: RangerG]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
I forgot, when you grab his wrist, you are applying a wrist lock as well.
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#159114 - 06/23/05 08:06 PM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: RangerG]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
In my experience the stab from the front is the hardest to defend. We do what Equis said. Block the stabbing hand and strike to the head simultaneosly. We also try not to focus on the hand, because that`s where the atacker is strongest. We go to something called a reference point (control point), where you give the attacker a couple of knee strikes and then take him down and take the knife.

Another way (which I think is harder, but maybe a more natural reaction), is to catch the stabbing hand and continue immediatelly with a kick to the groin. Next we go to the reference point like before.

I don`t think that applying wrist locks at the begining is a good idea. It`s better to "soften" the atacker first.
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#159115 - 06/24/05 03:18 AM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: Kosh]
Equis Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 101
Loc: in my pants.
The Machine Gun is my favorite, but we also do a groin kick then get the knife. As a matter of a fact we try to block lean forward with our own body weight as we throw our hips back to soften the momentum the attacker has. At this same time if the block is done correctly or with luck the force of wrist to wrist usually makes the attacker open their hand and drop the knife, if not kick them in the groin.

RangerG if you can ellaborate in the technique you are using let me know I never heard of a wrist lock as you and Plantman are talking about. That is usually done on a non-knife situation.

Ideally wrist to wrist is the method I am instructed to do, a forearm block just makes the knife slide up the defenders arm. Likewise, in a multiple stabbing motion if you step into them they can bear hug you and stab your abs or back.

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#159116 - 06/24/05 05:53 PM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: Equis]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I had to wait till I got home and worked out both defenses with the GF...

Pasive position

Attacker comes towards you with the knife in an upward thrust stance

As he stabs forward and up..you block with forarm hitting him at the wrist.

At the same time you deliver a punch to the chin or throat, you grasp the wrist of the knife hand.

With your punching hand, you grasp the attackers knife hand so now you have a double grip on the knife hand..wrist and hand..

Variation 1.

You now deliver a groin kick..as he bends over foward, you dig your fingers in and strip the knife from his hand.

Variation 2.

You deliver the groin kick, then leverage his wrist to the left in my case..and take him to the ground..kick him in the side a couple of times and strip the knife..


The problem I have is hitting the wrist with my forarm..and that couple of seconds while punching the throat that I do not have a grip on the wrist... I found with practice last night..and working on it more with the GF.. I can block and grab at the same time..thus removing the threat I feel..

So it's all good now, but I am now curious about what the rest of you were talking about..
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"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#159117 - 06/24/05 11:55 PM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: RangerG]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
I have been taught that to control the knife is of paramount importance. Hence the grabbibg of the wrist and the subsequent lock and forced relaease of the knife.

While you are grabbing/controlling the wrist you can twist/control/throw down your attacker using taisavaki(spelling)or use knee strikes to render him helpless.

However, if you use knee strikes first and do not control the knife, you are still in a very dangerous predicament.

Contol and take posession of the knife.

RangerG, if you were attacking me with your right hand, I would block with my left forearm(while using body defense causing the knife to be off target)I would then grab your right qrist with my left hand, further solidify my grip with my right hand(wrist lock) while stepping in closing the distance and either taking you down, removing the knife or knee strikes.


.02


Edited by Plantman (06/25/05 12:02 AM)

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#159118 - 07/01/05 07:58 AM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: Plantman]
Ace Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 101
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I agree with Plantman, you want to secure the knife and then worry about further action, as the attacker isnt probably expecting you to do this, and if you can control the the knife/wrist you can control the body of the other person or disarm him and cut a tendon.
As such, i would probably follow these steps.
1) jump back with waist as you catch knife arm, to get out of danger zone (presuming knife comes up from low position for a gut shot)
2) pull attacker off balance while trusting a kick/stomp into he's shin or knee
3) proced to beat the expitive out of opponent with elbow and knee strikes, then perform take-down or knife disarm followed by a tendon cut in shoulder or elbow of opponent with knife if he still wishes to attack.
4)this should be a fairly safe method (as far as knife fighting goes)

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#159119 - 07/01/05 12:11 PM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: Ace]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
We worked on this last night at the dojo. I have overcome the problem without having to capture the wrist. Took me a while to get the hang of this variation, but darn if it doesn't work too bad afterall!
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#159120 - 07/04/05 02:31 AM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: RangerG]
Equis Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 101
Loc: in my pants.
You should let someone come try to stab you with a butter knife and see how well you do. Just kidding. Actually that is soemthing I have been thinking about trying with a friend for a while.

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#159121 - 07/04/05 05:14 PM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: Equis]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

You should let someone come try to stab you with a butter knife and see how well you do. Just kidding. Actually that is soemthing I have been thinking about trying with a friend for a while.




I have two cold steel hard rubber knives that would be a bit better for this. They will not puncture, but they do smart a bit.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#159122 - 07/05/05 02:32 PM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: RangerG]
MitchM Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Mission Viejo, CA
I apologize for dropping into the middle of a thread and so late in the thread as well, but I have a little advice that might help.

After you've deflected the stab and while your punching to the face or throat, you should be sliding your defending arm to the crook of the attackers elbow and pinning the arm to their body (keeping your elbow lower then theirs to prevent a slash). This is why you may feel vulnerable during the defense, because you are.

After the the punch (or two), you then grab the wrist -- with your defending/sliding arm -- and then either kick or perform a cavalier take down.

Again, sorry for the intrusion.

Mitch M

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#159123 - 07/06/05 06:46 AM Re: Sudden Stab from the Front [Re: MitchM]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
No, don't be sorry for offering an opinion and/or advice. That's what a forum is for. Thanks for your opinion!
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