Barad:
He has an answer for me, trust me. It's just not time for it yet. That has been his answer for many things, only later to blow our minds with the explanation. I'm just a curious person and wanted to see people's responses.

A subtle insult of my instructor isn't it.
Thanks for the help though.

Steelwater,

I am not sure if your response was in jest or not. If there is an answer and your instructor has it, then you have a right to receive it. I was not subtly insulting your instructor, I was suggesting in a straightforward way that he may not actually know. I have spent near on 25 years in Shotokan schools and I have found that many instructors who do not know something will usually not admit it. Suggesting that it is a secret for later is one way of covering this up. Then again, maybe he really does have an amazing answer for you in the future but it hardly seems such an earthshattering question in the first place that it has to be reserved for the time "when you are ready"...

B.

No, it was not in jest and I actually take serious offense to it. Also, your experience in Shotokan and whether the answer is "earth-shattering" is irrelevant due to the fact that his teaching style and ideologies in teaching are completely different. Period. The fact of the matter is that the kata Hangetsu is taught two belt levels above mine and it has always been his teaching style to make his students focus on the material at that current belt while going over the material from the past. It is his school, and I do have a right to know the information, when he is ready to teach it. If I don't like his teaching methods then I can go elsewhere and train. However, I find no problem with the way he teaches and the fact that he doesn't really teach material from higher belts until you get there. While you may not have meant it as a subtle insult, that's how it came off.

Steelwater,

You can find offence where none is meant-up to you really but I am just speaking my mind. To take "serious" offence seems a bit odd to me. Really. Like I said, my experience is that martial arts teachers are often loathe to admit not knowing something and will say they will tell you when you are ready to cover themselves. Your teacher may be different. I am curious though, if you knew your teacher was dead against explaining things to you before you were ready for that level, why did you bother asking him about it in the first place, as you say you did in an earlier post? If you actually respect that your teacher does not think you should yet know these things, whatever they are, surely you are going against his practices by asking people on a forum about them? I have no idea how old you are or how long you have been training but you sound like you are indulging in a bit of hero worship of your instructor.

More to the point of the thread, I think I know how Hangetsu dachi evolved (see my earlier posts) and I do not think they reflect well on Shotokan, as the reasons have nothing to do with practicality and a lot to do with appearance. This, I suspect, is why some teachers may not wish to discuss it. I have seen few practical arguments for hangetsu dachi and even fewer people who actually use it outside the kata, in fact make that none.

B.

Barad,
I took serious offense because you didn't just state your opinion, you flat out said "Your instructor have an answer". That's not a warning or advice, it's basically an insult. Also, "hero worship"? Please. Yes, I do respect my instructor and his teaching methods solely for the fact that it is his school and he is allowed to teach anyway that he pleases. I never said I respect it so much that I won't do independent research. In fact it somewhat annoys me but I realize that I really don't have a right to go into a man's school and dictate to him how he should teach his students.

On the other hand, what goes on outside that school is MY business and how he thinks something should be taught has no bearing on whether or not I can come onto this forum and ask other martial artists' opinions on a subject.

Just a reminder to keep cool and polite please,

pm is a great feature and always remember that the written word can and is read differently by different people.

Lets not ruin a good thread and all 'hug'.

Steelwater,

I have no way for certain of knowing whether your instructor has an answer on this or not (so if you felt my phrasing was too absolute before then take that as an apology). Equally you do not know whether he has any answer, or a good answer or a bad answer, although I understand why you would want him to have a good answer for you and actually I would prefer this as well. However I raised it as a possibility (that he does not and is not prepared to tell you straight) based on my own experience of many different karate schools and teachers over the years and I stand by that.

The best teachers I have trained with, whilst being superb technically, have not necessarily claimed to have all the answers at their fingertips but are prepared to discuss technical issues openly. The worst ones have tried to fob me off whilst pretending they know all and they will tell me the eternal secrets when they feel like it. The latter have also been the ones to try to induce some kind of lame sub-cultish blind devotion after watching too many samurai or kung fu movies and thinking that people who pay them for lessons are their acolytes rather than their customers.

B.

Steelwater,

Maybe I am just too cynical-why not just let me know what your teacher has to say on the subject when he finally tells you.

Thanks,

B.

Barad,
While I understand your concern (as I have encountered instructors like this in the past myself), I don't believe this is the case.

Of course, in order for me to know if he is this way or not, I'll need a benchmark. So if you don't mind, would you tell me your thoughts on Hangetsu-dachi?

Hello Butterfly:



Wow.... forgive me Butterfly, for a man who claims ~verbilization~ of the concept to be "difficult", you certain did a breath-takingly good job of doing so!



Now as with everything else we do, we would need to determine what the particular mechanics of the stance that Steelwater was doing, to explore some of the possibilities of it.

Seisan (aka Hangetsu) stance in his art could well be our zenkutsu dachi, or sanchin stance take your pick. All kinds of crazy variations with nuances possible. Pictures, we need pictures

Myself, I appreciate the similarity, the "WEIRD" similarity between Seisan, Sanchin & the Neihanchi stances. They are scary close, in terms of the foot positioning, and how the hip is engaged (structurally). Turn the feet both in and you have Neihanchi, straight seisan/hangetsu, one or both in (not to the neihanchi stance degree) and voila Sanchin appears...

The hips undulate just a little and align, twist or tuck under... depending on the particular stance. All isolate our muscles slightly differently based on the respective foot-hip positions, all generate power or provide structure to explore the ~wonder how I can produce power if I do/ended up this way...~

Seisan (our usage) moves the torso "off" the original centerline and structurally is not designed to maintain a position in the manner say of horse stance/kiba dachi is able for example. If, if our knees are not bent well Seisan stance has almost no value...IMHO

Seisan done in the dynamic tension method some/many utilize the stance seems repetitive of the Sanchin stance conceptually. I am puzzled by one factor however... those who contend the seisan stance (ie in the dynamic tension manner) is about engaging the legs, the inner leg muscles especially.... then what is happening with the muscles on the outside of the leg? Relatively unimportant comparitively speaking? What happens with them, I wonder...?

Jeff