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#159078 - 06/22/05 07:49 PM Kata Mawashi Uke
McSensei Offline
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Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
This is, I suspect, one for the Goju practitioners.
Can anyone tell me applications for this kata, or more specifically the "block" mawashi uke. The only explanation I've had is that one is performing, gedan uke, gedan barai, uchi uke and soto uke in one movement. Sounds pretty lame to me. Thanks in advance for your efforts.
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#159079 - 06/22/05 08:57 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: McSensei]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I'm assuming you are talking about kata Taikyoku Mawashi Uke ? I think that's relatively new kata designed for Goju-Kai...
However in GojuRyu, circular blocks are common throughout the traditional Goju kata. There are more than one effective applications and depends which circular block you mean (ending movement in Sanchin?); but the one you described isn't one of the applications I'm aware of...unless you happen to be fighting an alien with 4 arms.

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#159080 - 06/22/05 09:48 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Oooooooooooooo let me weigh in on this one.

The Mawashi Uke or originally known as the Tora Guchi (tiger mouth) can do anything.

It can break arms, slam someone's face into the ground, KO them while they're standing, crunch ribs, cause a great deal of pain, and I'm just getting warmed up.

It's one of the techniques that if one has to only pick one technique for life, is the perfect answer (as opposed to the other 1,000,000 techniques that are also perfect answers).

Mawashi Uke/Tora Guchi works against the left arm, against the right arm, against the neck, against either leg, from the front, from the side, from the rear.

Good slice and dice.
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#159081 - 06/23/05 07:48 AM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: McSensei]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
McSensei,

I come from a style of karate that doesn't have traditional kata, but has some of these basic techniques. We practice Mawashi-uke as a warmup for muscle memory, but it is much richer than that and has taken me a long time to appreciate it, since it can be seen in a wealth of combination defense and attack techniques.

The first and most apparent use we have for his technique is in throwing. It offers a parry to a lead right and the circular motion of the other hand then moves up to control the opponen't neck for a front rolling throw (maki-koma-nage). You do have to have a lot of skill to pull this off though.

When moving off-line from a linear attack, this movement offers a parry/knife hand attack (or if in close, parry/counter elbow) combo right off the bat. The knife hand or elbow would be aimed at the oppoent's neck. This is good for punching techniques.

But for a right front kick, right punch combo...Mawashi-uke can be used for a soto-uke parry for the kick, while the other half of this "round-house block" can be used as an uchi-uke or jodan-uke to block and then push the opponent's punch to the side (if opponent is off balance, push him entirely to the side). The benefit of the block when performing this against these attacks is that your arms and hands are always protecting your face while moving to defend.

This movement is a beautiful way to block one technique and then raise the other hand to guard.

It is very important to practice this and allow your body to get a natural feel for this exercise, after which you can implement its movements in defending and attacking.

A great technique.

-B

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#159082 - 06/23/05 08:10 AM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Victor Smith]
shukokaichap Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 269
Loc: Back in th UK!
I agree with Victor it's a fantastic technique with loads and loads of potential applications.

I always wondered why Itosu never included it in the pinan / heian series when he was devising them, as it can be a bit of a hard technique to grasp when first learning it.

Is there any obvious reason that I'm missing?

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#159083 - 06/23/05 11:04 AM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: shukokaichap]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

I agree with Victor it's a fantastic technique with loads and loads of potential applications.

I always wondered why Itosu never included it in the pinan / heian series when he was devising them, as it can be a bit of a hard technique to grasp when first learning it.

Is there any obvious reason that I'm missing?




He did, its just a bit more subtle.(godan, look at techniques 8-10)

Also, compare the mawashi uke to the common knife hand block, low block, middle block, high block, etc... Then you can see how the other blocks were made from just this simple technique.

If you break the technique down into its basic movement, it covers all directions of execution... -- Movements the come from the outside of the body in, movements that go from the inside of the body to the outside, and movements that move directly ahead.
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#159084 - 06/23/05 12:31 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Kintama]
McSensei Offline
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Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Taikyoku mawashi uke, thats the fellow and yes the block is the last move in Sanchin. Also appears in Tensho I believe. It also sounds as if the explanation of the 4 blocks is not so far off as I thought. (In a basic sort of way).
Still having trouble visualizing the other apps. being given although I can kind of see a throw in there somewhere.
It must be really subtle in Heian Godan though, I can't see that one at all.
Perhaps Oldman could do a sketch on it. His cartoon of Tekki shodan I thought was cracking.
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#159085 - 06/23/05 02:12 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: McSensei]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
as long as you don't think those four blocks are simultaneous! lol like I was joking about the 4-arm alien.

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#159086 - 06/24/05 07:23 AM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: McSensei]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Taikyoku mawashi uke was created by Gogen Yamaguchi as training kata for beginners, one out of a set of 5 kata with 2 versions per kata. The others are Taikyoku jodan - chudan - gedan - kake uke.
They are only practised in his organization, nowadays 2 orghanizations run by his 2 sons.

The mawashi uke or tora guchi is a very important technique in Naha-te. For Goju ryu, it is present in almost all kata Miyagi left (except gekisai-dai ichi, shishoshin, seiunchin, sanseru).
Possible applications are trapping/locking/breaking/throwing/pushing/pulling/striking/grasping... and it is a close-range technique either moving linear or moving circular. For beginners it is a very dificult technique to grasp but even for more advanced it is not easy to use in free fighting.
Classical application is the trapping of the 2 attacks (one jodan and one chudan) putting the arms in a lock hold but more vicious is the continued grasping of the testicles eye-gouche or the finger thrust into the prostate and throath (just below larinx) or base of the neck(sideways).

What is very important (in view of Naha-te) are in my opinion 3 things :
* the variety of application of the technique in a double hand action will improve on single hand movements and will learn the value of the supporting hand. It will improve your fighting skill as you learn to use both hands in fighting.
* Sticky hand training, learning how to push/pull, spit/ swallow, ... when necesary, it is one of the ultimate hard/soft techniques. Greatest asset is redirecting your opponents energy into your advantage.
* Historic, the end pose of mawashi uke resembles a lot a hand gesture of the Buddha. I think that is why it is used a lot at the end of a kata. I have heard it has to do with promoting a peacefull mind but do not remember the details. Anyone know more about this geasture in Bhouddism ?

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#159087 - 06/24/05 07:55 AM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: McSensei]
shukokaichap Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 269
Loc: Back in th UK!
Quote:


It must be really subtle in Heian Godan though, I can't see that one at all.
Perhaps Oldman could do a sketch on it. His cartoon of Tekki shodan I thought was cracking.




It depents which version of godan you've been taught. I've been shown several different ways and I can see what sanchin is getting at, but it is very subtle to say the least.

An Oldman sketch of this would be great, I know he's probably reading this now and sharpening his pencil as we speak!

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#159088 - 06/30/05 05:08 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: McSensei]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Alone with the other comments mawashi-uke is a continued concept of the not so obvious as in the wraping of most movements in the kata at the begining they only appear to b preparation for a defensive move, when in reality the entire move is a strike with a check/block the hand moving away is the striking hand and the hand coming back is the checking hand and what was once a block now a strike or block and the strong obvious strike or block/strike is now the power move.

The Mashi-uke is closest obvious example of were this can be seen, it offense and defense within its entire motion. It is deflecting,blocking, checking, trapping, locking, tearing, poking, clawing, palming or grasping, or reverse of this. Pending how it is used or interpetted. It is the essence of Fukine's White Tiger/Crane/Monk/5 ancestor boxing or soft style Ju in Goju.
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#159089 - 07/01/05 11:45 AM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Victor Smith]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Quote:

It can break arms, slam someone's face into the ground, KO them while they're standing, crunch ribs, cause a great deal of pain, and I'm just getting warmed up...




OK, I'm sold. Can someone describe this universal mangler to me? I'm not even sure what an uchi uke is, let alone how to put them all together.
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#159090 - 07/01/05 02:41 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Ironfoot]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Describe this technique? I'll leave that to someone with more time on their hands. Briefly though, it's a circular "block" performed with both hands that travel through 540 degrees.
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#159091 - 07/01/05 03:39 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Ironfoot]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ironfoot,

I am only familiar with it through Kyokushin and Ashihara karate which do it differently. I have also seen it performed in Goju.

The translated name would be "roundhouse" block or "windmill" parry.

The starting positions that I have seen are variously similar to having one arm presented as a finished soto-uke or uichi-uke while the other hand is either beneath the elbow, or in some cases above the blocking hand's shoulder.

The soto-uke/ uichi-uke hand moves around toward the body side in a circular fashion going downward as if doing a hooking geidanburai, while the other hand moves upward cicularly as if doing a motion similar to a jodan-uke. These hands are rotating in the same direction and end up in a mirror image of the starting position, but now on the other side.

I hope this sort of helps.

-B

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#159092 - 07/01/05 06:21 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: McSensei]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

540 degrees




each hand does about a 270, so I guess if you add them up thats 540...just wanted to clearify.

(if each hand did 540, that would be the karate kid 'wax on-wax off' drill )

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#159093 - 07/01/05 09:17 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Kintama]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
The version of this block that my club practices, each hand travels 540.
Starting position; Upper hand pushed out level with armpit, palm facing out with elbow close to body pointing to floor.
Lower hand pushed out from hip, palm facing out with forearm parallel to floor and elbow tucked into body.
Movement; Upper hand sweeps out and down performing gedan uke. Lower hand sweeps out and up performing soto uke.
The hands continue their circular motion crossing back to back in the centre of the body. Original upper hand now sweeps up again to perform uchi uke. Original lower hand sweeps down to perform gedan barai. OUH now sweeps down to hip, OLH sweeps up to armpit and push hands out to a reversed starting position.
We have practiced a shorter version of this block where it appears in certain kata.
Maybe Mr. Miyagi had something after all???
(eyes car looking a bit grubby)


Edited by McSensei (07/01/05 09:22 PM)
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#159094 - 07/01/05 09:58 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: McSensei]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Not that this is really important - If I imagined what you described...that is 270 per hand.

here is a clear video (I not sure why mr lyons demonstrates it this badly in the video though, I've seen him demonstrate much better...a few technical mistakes - shoulders coming way up being the most obvious):
http://www.all-karate.com/vt_tora_guchi.php

watch one hand. trace a line. each hand goes 3/4 of a circle. stopping at the strike.

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#159095 - 07/01/05 10:56 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Ironfoot]
shorthair Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 18
Loc: SE Michigan
Ironfoot-
Its essentially the "wa uke" set of circular blocks/thrusts one performs at the end of Isshinryu's Sanchin.

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#159096 - 07/01/05 11:08 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: shukokaichap]
shorthair Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 18
Loc: SE Michigan
Quote:

always wondered why Itosu never included it in the pinan / heian series when he was devising them, as it can be a bit of a hard technique to grasp when first learning it.
Is there any obvious reason that I'm missing?




I'm thinking that since its found primarily in Goju/Naha influenced styles one wouldn't see it in the basic forms of Shorinryu. One finds a similar concept in the Bassai and Kusanku series. It's not as visibly common as a yoko geri or a soto uke, for example. But you can see it towards the end of this version of kusanku ...
Please feel free to educate me if I'm missing something.


Edited by shorthair (07/01/05 11:25 PM)

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#159097 - 07/02/05 03:13 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Kintama]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Tried to look at the vid but after hours of trying to download software to view it, I am told that my comp doesn't have enough memory. (whatever that means)
If you look at one hand though, say the upper hand, it travels a full circle and then down to the hip.( In the version we practice.)
Ok, maybe not quite 540 but certainly 360, plus another say, 90? = 450.
As I have said though, I have used a shorter version in kata
where the hands only travel 270.

PS the karate kid comment had me rolling about
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#159098 - 07/02/05 10:54 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Kintama]
Shidokai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Fukuoka, Japan
Quote:

I not sure why mr lyons demonstrates it this badly in the video though, I've seen him demonstrate much better...a few technical mistakes - shoulders coming way up being the most obvious.




I'm a bit at a loss as to why the videos on his site are so poor. Based on his teachers and experience, he shouldn't look like that. His blocks look almost more Shorin than Goju at times. None of the elbow movements I associate with Higaonna's students.
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#159099 - 08/16/05 11:32 AM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Ironfoot]
dmsdc Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 37
At the moment Buddha became enlightened he touched the earth to witness his enlightenment, he touched the sky to show the connection between heaven and earth, and he spun the wheel to show the circle of life.

Below is a link to an image (big) of the heaven and earth posture of Buddha.
http://buten.net/max/My2001/penang/html/10BurmeseTempleBuddhaHands.html

cheers & happy traning,
Dana

"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?"

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#159100 - 08/16/05 11:38 AM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: dmsdc]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Dana

Welcome!

Please don't be a "stranger."
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#159101 - 08/16/05 12:10 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: cxt]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I love Mawashi! Of course, I am simple.
Part of the attraction to Goju...all the circular stuff.

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#159102 - 08/16/05 12:17 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: McSensei]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
This is a simple block that can be used in complex ways, it is the most obvious (once explained) to the concept that Karate is both Offensive and defensive or as I like to call it counter offensives.

This move at green belt was explained to me as a blocking striking movement. Deflect a head strike and slapping the grion (supposeitly Miyagi's favor move). Or the opposite deflecting a chest/grion strike or kick, palming the nose or chin.

As you progress it becomes block the low kick strike the eyes, trap the rhk and chop the neck, push away take down.
To deflect the high punch, strike eyes and grion or lower abdomen all the way to trapping two arm elbow over elbow arm break/throw, one of the predominate throw &lock in Praying Mantis kung-fu and others Chinese systems. Just to name a few applications.

What some see as just a pretty block or a confused motion, has multiple purposes. And is a prime early example of what Tode jujits is all about.


Edited by Neko456 (08/16/05 12:21 PM)

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#159103 - 08/16/05 12:48 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Neko456]
JeremyK Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/08/05
Posts: 8
it's also great for stand up grappling! (I'm thinking Uechi version)

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#159104 - 08/16/05 02:03 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: cxt]
dmsdc Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 37
Howdy back cxt. Always good to see familiar folks.


Also - there is a strike with the outside of the forearm/hand at the end of the wauke. Very nicely applied in combination with taisabaki to the outside line.
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happy training, Dana

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#159105 - 08/16/05 09:35 PM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: dmsdc]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
To everyone contributing to this thread,
This is fantastic stuff, I'm lapping it up.
Keep it coming.
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http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#159106 - 08/17/05 05:53 AM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: McSensei]
Celebrian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 59
Loc: QLD Australia
aaah, my favourite block of all this was introduced to me through the Tensho kata. i won't bother repeating all its uses here as thats been done enough, but we learnt one application in class where your opponent is hanging onto the front of your gi. don't know the exact name, but you manage to get them into a rather painful arm lock O.o ...don't know if thats any use to this thread, but oh well
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#159107 - 08/17/05 06:21 AM Re: Kata Mawashi Uke [Re: Celebrian]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Hi Celebrian,

Quote:

but we learnt one application in class where your opponent is hanging onto the front of your gi.




Do you mean like a two handed grab? If so that is a good application. You can do an upward strike with the left and downward with the right while opponent has you grabbed or is reaching in.Also stepping off to an angle will throw him off balance opening up targets for the finishing blows. Neck,back,kidneys etc...or as you mentioned focusing both hands on one arm for an armlock,almost like a key lock,pulling the wrist downward fromthe back while lifting the elbow upward. Submit,or I'll break it.......
Great move,great thread!
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