FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 39 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BUJU, Pilsungkarate, ALF, old1, Leonar
22928 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 3
Ronin1966 3
ergees 2
Victor Smith 1
GojuRyuboy13 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
Today at 04:53 PM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
Today at 04:53 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
The Karate punch
by Ronin1966
10/09/14 03:16 PM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Forum Stats
22928 Members
36 Forums
35583 Topics
432511 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#290430 - 10/03/06 12:09 PM Should TKD teach ground fighting?
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
No style is perfect, and no style is pure. Grappling techniques of jujutsu can be seen in any art, the high kicks of the korean arts are no longer just practice in dojangs but in dojo's aswell, the multiple open hand strikes of kung fu are no longer just in the chinese arts but in the okinawen /japanese arts aswell.

There is no perfect style and even if it's not admitted or said out loud, every school is a practitioner of mix martial arts. It would be extremely rare for an instructor to have never been exposed to a second or third style of fighting, not unless they've lived on a secluded islandfor the majority of their life, and even still, they would have to have no televsion.

So the question is, should striking arts like TKD teach basic ground skills?

With the popularity of gracie jiu-jitsu and the practicality of wrestling in mma tournaments having knowledge of ground play has become essential. Perhaps it may not be very imporant to have tremendous knowledge of ground fighting per say, but at least a basic knowledge of ground defense should be considered as part of TKD curriculum.

While most attackers will not be skilled wrestlers or brazilian jiu-jitsu experts, the sole purpose of gracie jiu-jitsu was to prove that although on the ground and on your back, a skilled weaker opponenet has a chance against an attacker.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#290431 - 10/03/06 12:21 PM Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? [Re: TeK9]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I honestly don't think it would really be TKD anymore if it had groundfighting. Call it what it is; MMA.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#290432 - 10/03/06 12:23 PM Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? [Re: TeK9]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
At our school, I do teach them during our self defence classes but call them Hapkido techniques so anyone going back to my Sah Bum Nim wont get me killed, lol. I can not teach something front the mount or the guard because that would immediately give it away but I can teach some basic concepts like controlling the opponents, clinching, takedowns, and ground control.

My Sah Bum Nim is Korean and strongly believes in only TKD being taught in his school but I know we need to have some ground strategies as well. This is the way I make that happen. For the greater good dang it!

Scottie
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

Top
#290433 - 10/03/06 12:43 PM Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Taekwon-Do, if taught properly, that is with realism, will of course have ground fighting in it.

If you currently train in TKD & do not fight on the ground, then you are not practicing with realism, as many fights have the potential to end up on the ground.

There has been fighting on the ground techniques in Taekwon-Do since the 1st English text was published in 1965. I do not have the 1959 Korean text, so I can not comment on that.

The problem (or 1 of them) with TKD today, is it has become so watered down as a sport & a babysitting (or discipline builder) service for children.

Most schools fight using tournament sparring principles. This is not FREE sparring. In addition, most schools teach or practice very unrealistic self defense movements, with a willing partner.

The ITF system - if you follow the syllabus, has provisions to be a complete MA. However, not that ITF is any better, as many of their schools do not follow the syllabus close enough to realize the benefits. Some do not even know the syllabus. (Refer back to the waterdown explanation, as they suffer from the same fate).

Top
#290434 - 10/03/06 01:54 PM Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Obviously my own school does not fit the mold as grappling is taught since white belt level. However we are affiliated with 2 schools with the name. As well we are associated with another school so I will give you the low down on us.

School 1; Main (owner of name of the schools) - No grappling taught until 3 Dan and higher.

School 2 - No grappling taught in curriculum until 3 Dan and higher though grappling is taught separate on Saturdays and Tuesday nights and has students that don't take TKD.

School 3 (us) - Grappling taught from white belt level and up though we have the same TKD curriculum as the first 2 schools.

School 4 (associatad) - No grappling taught; heavily into competition fighting.


We all test together prior to taking the Provincial test for black belt and higher. The first three school's Instructors all learned from one South Korean Master who was Taekwondo and Hapkido mixed and included ground skills. The 2nd and 3rd school's Instructors then took it upon themselves to become black belts in Ketto-Ryu Jujitsu. Then from there they began training BJJ with David Meyer a Machado black belt. Then from there the 3rd school's Instructor (my school) took it even further and trains and competes MMA.

The 3 affiliated schools all came from the same teacher and all teach the same curriculum though the 2nd and 3rd also provide more. The 2nd school teaches grappling separate as they have a large of enough base that people just want to learn grappling so takes other students and just teaches that without them having to take TKD. The 3rd school teaches it all together from the experience of the Instructor (my Instructor) who believes that the students should have all of the needed skills to become complete martial artists.

We are all still Taekwondo just slightly different. And as I see it, when it comes to 3rd Dan and higher, our school will be better prepared when grappling is manditory and tested for. While they will be learning the basics we will be far above this and more effective ... in my opinion.

So I think ground skills are something that should be taught but are not always. The basics of ground skills were taught to all three Instructors by their Korean Master due to Hapkido being blended into them. Probably most school with Hapkido influences (i.e. Scottie's school), do allow for some basic ground fighting. Should it not then be called Taekwondo like Leo suggests? I say no, they are still Taekwondo as this is the base of the art and the other stuff is just gravy or the icing on the cake.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Top
#290435 - 10/03/06 02:13 PM Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? [Re: Dereck]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Problem could be technical. It could be very hard to teach TKD that "flows" by switching what it is at the moment on to the ground. Many TKD schools, as I'm sure you all know, borrow SD moves from other arts. The WTF group in my area take them from Ju Jitsu. Although they are to be applauded for taking the initative, it was like learning two seperate arts in one class.

You may want to ask some of the Kyushokin/Ashiara/Enshin people on the karate forums about this. All of these arts, which resemble TKD to a certain extent, have well developed "anti-grappling" techniques. Just a thought.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#290436 - 10/03/06 02:17 PM Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Ground fighting is crucial to fighting, and therefore TKD should include some. However, the extent to which TKD fighters should be taught ground fighting is questionable- there are only so many hours in a class. My preference would be that all TKD practitioners should know how to roll, how to do take downs, and how to do enough ground fighting to guard, to roll and to pound. I don't see the point in teaching that many arm bars, locks etc. since a TKD chap will be much more proficient at throwing strikes from the top.

ITFUnity, although I am sure TKD did include some level of groundfighting, we have to get real here, and admit that groundfighting is a place where TKD doesn't have a whole lot to offer other styles. Even if there are techniques, they are not only less effective, but less coherent as a grappling style than those found in judo and Jujitsu. If TKD wants to ground fight, it should take its syllabus from those styles, and not try to do it on its own.

The topic is a no brainer when it comes to what a serious student should want to be taught. It is far more controversial when one starts to demand changes to schools. TKD instructors are just not knowledgeable on the whole about such things, and even if they have experience in grappling, I would rather be taught be a grappling expert than a TKD guy who had added some grappling in. Dereck's instructor seems to be an exception, since the guy obviously has expertise in grappling as well.

Top
#290437 - 10/03/06 02:20 PM Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? [Re: Prizewriter]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

You may want to ask some of the Kyushokin/Ashiara/Enshin people on the karate forums about this. All of these arts, which resemble TKD to a certain extent, have well developed "anti-grappling" techniques. Just a thought.




Now that is a good point Prizewriter, "anti-grappling" I feel is about as much as a TKD school will ever be able to offer. Things like sprawling and underhooks. In the end, if you're mainly trained in TKD, you're gonna be rubbish on the ground against a trained BJJ guy, that's why he wants you on the ground, and why you want to be standing.

Train to stay standing as long as possible, and then train worst case scenarios. Don't train to beat BJJ guys at their own game.

Top
#290438 - 10/03/06 03:11 PM Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

TKD instructors are just not knowledgeable on the whole about such things, and even if they have experience in grappling, I would rather be taught be a grappling expert than a TKD guy who had added some grappling in.




Supremor, I totally agree. I may be an exception but you will hear my own Instructor say that if you want to learn everything about grappling then join a grappling school. He has said the same about boxing and MMA training that to learn all the ins and outs of these then join those types of schools.

We work on a 6 day rotation so we can only afford 1 class per week for 4 weeks straight to have a grappling class and then 1 week with none and then back again for 4 weeks. And if the class has a lot of newer belts we will go right back to the basics with falling techniques and simplier skills then continue where most of us are. So in otherwords time is an issue to get really competent at these skills.

We have good basics from white belt level and up. Then there are a handful of us that have more skills then the rest because we train after class and our Instructor sees this interest and spends more time with us. And for us we feel it is necessary to compete to further improve our skills. However our skills obviously would be far greater if we were doing it all the time if we attended a grappling school. But from our competitions we've competed and attended, surprisingly for some students and the amount of time they have put in which is substantial to our time put in, we were on par with a lot of them. Perhaps it is the love of the art that propells many of us to learn more in such a small amount of time.

But back to the main post, and agreeing with much I've seen written, I see a need for any stand up art to learn the basic minimum ground fighting skills just so they can defend from the ground and work to an advantage to finish it or at the least get back up to their feet to continue the fight or to take flight. Basics ... that is all they need. They don't need to know all of the armbars and scissor sweeps or chokes ... though these are the things I love the most about the ground game, but the basics of buck/trap/roll to gain top mount is essential not to mention having a decent guard and to wrap up their opponent so as not to continually take punches to their face where it could end. Basics, that is all they need ... but as also pointed out ... from somebody that has good experience in this field not just somebody that picked it up and throws it in. It must be effective and intregrated into the curriculum so that it flows ... and grappling is best when it flows.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Top
#290439 - 10/03/06 03:31 PM Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
100% RITE!

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga