FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 73 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
IT_krav_maga, kostaspd, ankit, Waltersmma, jasmin
23196 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
kickbutt 2
FuYuan 2
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
video: Wu Wei Cup 2018 internal arts Hamburg
by FuYuan
10/13/18 05:04 AM
Douwe Geluk, Southern Monkey Kungfu
by FuYuan
10/13/18 04:58 AM
Is this thread dead?
by Ritz
01/09/18 12:13 AM
MA specific conditioning drills
by
11/22/06 05:39 PM
Recent Posts
video: Wu Wei Cup 2018 internal arts Hamburg
by FuYuan
10/13/18 05:04 AM
Douwe Geluk, Southern Monkey Kungfu
by FuYuan
10/13/18 04:58 AM
MA specific conditioning drills
by kickbutt
09/21/18 10:14 PM
Forum Stats
23196 Members
36 Forums
35697 Topics
432754 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#240372 - 03/21/06 07:44 PM Multiple Applications
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
Culturally speaking (i.e. the culture of karate) does having multiple applications for a kata or section of kata reflect a lack of understanding OR were kata truly designed to have multiple applications?

If the latter is true then how does one design a kata with multiple applications? Is there not a pay off between accurately displaying one technique or principle against another (or multiple others)?

If efficiency in teaching is the reasoning behind designing kata with multiple applications then why are there so many kata with so many different movements in?

If the reason for this variety is the devise history of karate then is it really worth continued study? Would it not just be simpler to start again and make up new kata?

OR as I said at the beginning… “Does having multiple applications for a kata or section of kata reflect a lack of understanding” in a cultural sense?

OR perhaps my argument is invalid?

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

Top
#240373 - 03/21/06 10:14 PM Re: Multiple Applications [Re: founderofryoute1]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Martin,

I do not believe there is any satisfactory answer to your question. To have one you have to know what the kata's founder intended.

In its essense kata is a specialized sort of movement. That movement can be used in any way imaginable if one can make it work, and if one can't make it work....

When you shape a student what is the goal, to just use a movement in one specific way? Fine. On the other hand is the goal to make them capable of doing whatever is necessary to solve situations? Fine in a different way.

If you can do it, then you can do it. If you can't do it, then you can't do it.

So kata can be defined by any standard and still remain kata. Neither right or wrong.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#240374 - 03/21/06 10:41 PM Re: Multiple Applications [Re: founderofryoute1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

does having multiple applications for a kata or section of kata reflect a lack of understanding OR were kata truly designed to have multiple applications?




excellent and valid question. my short and honest answer is: I don't know, but I suspect both are true. The only thing for certain is that the antique kata karate has today, nobody knows for sure where it came from or who or for what application(s) they composed them. hasn't been documented. Karate/Chinese Art history scholars can determine with reasonable certainty the fighting methods contained within most kata just by the nature of the movements combined with the earliest record of it's practice.

Given all of the unknowns and reasonable guesses, like you, I have a theory...sorry for the length of it.

classic military style, separate sequences of common attack/defense counter/finishes were first practiced. These sequences were from actual battlefield armed and unarmed combat experience and refined into principles. Individual techniques for specific responses were practiced until the the response could be used with a certain efficiency against a range of attacks. (1 principle answering a multitude of slighly different incoming attacks. several techniques, yet one principle covering the basic jist of all the individual techniques).

as a note, the Army still trains this. They are very structured and sytematic in how they train troops. first you learn to shoot straight in perfect conditions, then kneeling,standing,laying down, nighttime, with snow glare, wind conditions, etc.
The principle of firing is the same...it's the techniques that change depending on conditions. more exposure to conditions = a better understanding of the principle of your weapon.

back to kata. Individual sequences containing these principles were strung together. nothing is perfect, some sequences seamlessly flow into the next, but some are definite starting and stopping points. the advantage of having this moving book of principles was...how else do you record and pass on movement during the 14th century? after more than a few generations, movements get refined, perhaps the sequences are refit, some added, some changed....but not randomly, keep in mind, I'm still talking about a time when people were still boiled in oil for stealing bread. almost a constant state of war has a way of keeping people on their toes. changes were for efficiency and effectiveness from experience from the field.


to make this shorter, I'll skip the hypothetical history (yes, I made it up) and just say, I feel each kata has a group of fighting principles. at first, the student learns the mechanical movement of a sequence; then a training drill using the sequences as a controlled and unrealistic kumite; then a specific application for the sequence used for the application of self-defense, then a varied application vs varied attack and so on until the larger encompasing principle becomes apparent. At that stage, the student no longer need the kata other than to carry it on to the next generation ...it was/is a training device.

I think it's as simple as that (easier said than done of course).

I think most do not go beyond the training drills and use kata as one/two step kumite practice. myself included. It's not a useless endevor, since the movement principles are the same...it's just an incomplete/unfinished knowledge of kata and how kata can be used. there simply isn't enough instructors with that level of knowledge to present it to everyone. after about nidan or sandan, the most important part of your Karate journey may be the searching unless you were lucky enough to have top notch instuction to begin with. some say screw it, and throw kata away and go to a fighting gym...thats one answer that works if the goal isn't to get the most out of a chosen Art, but rather to find an Art with the most direct route to their goal. others come up with their own interpretations...which is another answer that works depending on the goals (sometimes it's easier to just change the goals). Then others just fade away their training all together.

kata probably isn't the best vehicle to learn self-defense. This is where the enjoyment factor comes in...either people enjoy learning that way, or people don't.

but like I said...it's just my theory and it's no more valid than what anyone else chooses to use kata for.

btw Martin, I appologize for being hard on you and your Art. If you are honestly doing what you do for enjoyment, then bravo. my initial suspicion, to be frank, was that you were suggesting an effective self-defense system but selling something else....like a book of custom designed kata for enjoyment but subliminally messaged in parens (you can actually use this for self-defense), for instance. but I'm starting to realize you are also just searching like many of us.

-Ed

Top
#240375 - 03/21/06 11:57 PM Re: Multiple Applications [Re: founderofryoute1]
Borrek Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 501
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Just because we use a butterknife for everything from turning screws to scraping ice off of windshields doesnt mean we have a poor understanding of butterknifing =)

I would say that with any great tool, people will eventually find endless uses, and kata are definitely great tools. If anything, finding multiple uses speaks to a greater understanding of the mechanics of the techniques.

Top
#240376 - 03/22/06 02:24 AM Re: Multiple Applications [Re: founderofryoute1]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
very quickly as im off to work,

kata mostly teaches me principles of movement that I find have multiple uses in self defense. It also teaches me certain techniques that have specific uses.

Will expand later!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#240377 - 03/22/06 02:45 PM Re: Multiple Applications [Re: Borrek]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
I like the analogy of kata as a tool. Correct or not I think it accurately describes the current popular approach to kata in karate.

I suppose it comes down to how one defines the term “function”. For example, is the function of a thing the set of functions that it could possibility be used for? Or is the function of a thing the function that it was designed for in the first place? According to www.answers.com it seems the latter definition of “function” is more fitting; the term “use” being more applicable to the former definition.

So I guess the question becomes does one search for function in kata or does one search for use for kata. Personal I think the search for function is more meaningful, however I accept the search for use is more practical. But I prefer meaning over practicality.

I hope people are able to follow this! It’s getting a bit philosophical!

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

Top
#240378 - 03/22/06 06:12 PM Re: Multiple Applications [Re: founderofryoute1]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
im a use man myself! (with a hint of function)
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#240379 - 03/23/06 04:53 PM Re: Multiple Applications [Re: shoshinkan]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
My opinion is that within the current culture of karate there is a lack of understanding (in terms of understanding function) both of specific applications of kata and of the general context within which it is appropriate to use these applications. Therefore in order to survive as an instructor you are forced to resort to teaching “use” rather than “function” (see last my last post).

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

Top
#240380 - 03/23/06 05:42 PM Re: Multiple Applications [Re: founderofryoute1]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
well Martin,

your opinion is just that, yours. And of course im open to seeing the value in it.

Its obviously apparent that you view martial arts very different from the vast majority of us (I like that by the way!) and obviously we can all just bang heads as the historical 'truth' is lost in time (did it ever exsist though? or was it always different things to different people?).

One of the things i have begun to see over the last few years is that karate technique is a template teaching principles of movement, people choose to use it for what they require.

My 'truth' is that I believe karate is a method of civil self protection, entwined with a holistic method of good health (mind, body and spirit), linked to ancient tradition/religious symbolism,

I train the Okinawna Shorin ryu tradition as best I can, specifically looking back and finding 'clues' to the real 'truth' (sport has alot to awnser for IMO), and I gain much pleasure out of doing so, outside of all that its personal to each of us - my karate is different from the next man, the template may look the same but we all require a different function - it aint line dancing (well actually it is in many dojo......).

As stated before I hope that I can see and train with you guys, I feel that I can benefit from expieriencing your art, despite me perhaps disagreeing with some of your beliefs - you might want to do the same?

_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#240381 - 03/23/06 09:56 PM Re: Multiple Applications [Re: founderofryoute1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I personally don't care about the culture of Karate or culture of MA in general...it has it's own life that is driven by different motives and with a different path than my own. In my opinion you are correct in pointing out the general lack of understanding of kata....
But in order for either one of us to claim that, implies we know the 'true' application and context...which is not a historical truth (since documentation has not survived), but rather a personal truth.

that being said, we can only really talk about kata when the goals of each person talking is known. To say someone can interpret kata movements with no assumptions is hogwash. some basic assumptions are reasonable: kata is fighting principles with physical combat application.

that assumption is strengthened by a century of DOCUMENTED Masters of various arts, telling us this is so.

I feel this is a sane starting point when discussing kata application... to say otherwise is to say not just the mainstream culture of Karate is wrong, but the written works and demonstrated abilities of past-Masters should also be thrown out. I don't throw away history and start over, I learn from it and try to personally build upon it.

over-analyzing leads to an accedemic study. My feeling is, to learn kata, find a sensei that makes it work and learn from that person.


"I've never been an intellectual but I have this look."
-Woody Allen

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga