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#239861 - 03/19/06 04:27 PM Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi All,

Just wanted to discuss the merits of both positions and the 'naturalness' of them, I have trained naihanchi dachi (straddle leg stance) a long time now and see benefit in it, however it IMO is certainly NOT 'natural' - a key priciple of the shorin ryu I practise.

With that in mind shiko dachi (horse stance, feet open natural) seems to deliver everything naihanchi dachi does from a self defense appplication perspective, along with it being 'natural'.............

I do see training merit in naihanchi dachi for body structure and early training but should it remain part of our training long term?

Obviously a knock on effect is the naihanchi kata, should it be performed/trained and applied in shiko dachi?????

Lets talk about it.......
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#239862 - 03/19/06 06:20 PM Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'm going to translate naihanchi dachi as 'kiba dachi', since I haven't practiced naihanchi stance.

for applications where you need to sink lower, use shiko dachi. if higher up, use kiba dachi. simple as that.

The reason kiba doesn't feel natural to some is because they practice it too low. I would think the same applies to Naihanchi dachi.

this looks like kiba dachi to me (but I know its referred to as naihanchi):
http://www.shorinryu.de/public/familie/meister/motobu/Bilder/Motobu%20naihanchi.jpg

shiko dachi
http://www.iogkf.be/images/fotos/Morio1.gif

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#239863 - 03/19/06 06:57 PM Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi Ed,

The links are good references to the stances, whilst i agree that the shiko dachi can be done lower the dynamics also remain good higher, in the naihanchi/kiba position.

the Motobu Sensei picture is classic, but my point of interest is that the stance he shows certianly doesnt look, or feel 'natural' to me, its a locked rooting posture.

This should be a good discussion!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#239864 - 03/19/06 07:13 PM Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Naihanchi dachi is an energetic position. It is natural not because of its static position, but because of its method of power generation. In shorin much of our power is generated much like that of a coil. In naihanchi we learn to wind the coil and release it to generate power. It is natural because it does not use muscle tightening, but natural tension through structure and position of the body. Knowledge of this method of power generation is key to performance and advanced application of shorin principles.

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#239865 - 03/19/06 07:46 PM Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi Medulanet,

I certainly agree that naihanchi teaches power generation, I also practise and see the 'natural' tension aspect, via structure, I have no issues whatsoever with these 'lessons'.

But naihanchi dachi isnt a natural way to stand, react or apply technique period, teaching begineers shows us this, as does the precise 'form' of naihanchi performed in the stance, including the cross steps - totally unnatural way of movement IMO. (im not saying rubbish by the way!).

My thinking is that the naihanchi dachi is simply a training position, teaching us the principles you mention and a few more (rooting, spine position etc etc) not a realistic application position due to its locked nature and that perhaps using the shiko dachi allows freedom of movement in a 'natural' way, ie by turning the hips when stepping, for actual application.

A bit like the shizentai - zenkutsu dachi presentation within Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu and other Shuri/tomari te systems.

Maybee im looking to hard here but I thought it worth discussing, be gentle with me I do realise I speaketh the devils tounge.........
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#239866 - 03/19/06 08:09 PM Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi [Re: shoshinkan]
Borrek Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 501
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Quote:


But naihanchi dachi isnt a natural way to stand, react or apply technique period, teaching begineers shows us this, as does the precise 'form' of naihanchi performed in the stance, including the cross steps - totally unnatural way of movement IMO. (im not saying rubbish by the way!).






Kosa dachi is also a stance that I wouldn't want to find myself in statically, but dynamically it has definite merits. A fast mawatte is one. I would say naihanchi dachi is the same. It is a "coiled spring" stance. Your power is building and ready to explode in the next move. If caught in that stance or required to keep it for an extended period it is definitely "unnatural" but hitting that stance to give another technique more explosive power is very natural. Its kind of the crouch before the jump.

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#239867 - 03/19/06 09:00 PM Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi [Re: shoshinkan]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
one of the structural advantages of the naihanchi stance is that it is very stable when being pulled or pushed, or for pulling and pushing. kiba dachi, with the feet pointing outwards 45 degrees, is not as stable for that purpose.
Many things that are learned in martial arts don't feel natural at first. Like Bruce Lee said it's like "unnatural naturalness, or natural unnaturalness." The naihanchi stance feels very natural for me, though I've been practicing it for 13 or 14 years now. It is important to note that it is not an especially low stance, even though it is taught that way in some schools at first. The parallel-thighs horse stance is really a training stance as I understand it. Once the naihanchi kata is learned and becomes natural, it has great fighting applications. It's not just a training method for beginners. I believe it was originally a fighting style all by itself which was formed into kata by the early Shuri-te masters like Matsumura.
So it is really hard to judge what is "natural" and not...in martial arts things that weren't considered natural before become natural with practice.

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#239868 - 03/19/06 09:22 PM Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
if a 'stance' is thought of as a momentary position, not as a posture, then other possiblities are available. neko ashi dachi is a perfect example of how a stance can go wrong when it's thought of as a posture instead of a transitional stance - it presents itself when close quarter kicking.

by transitional stance I mean either during shifting to side/oblique or dropping weight.

kiba/shiko/naihanchi have different application. a fairly low and well rooted shiko dachi indicates to me 3 main principles: you've already got the advantage (perhaps have the opponent locked in some way), and you drop down into shiko to perform the break/smash/whatever. or, you want to drop weight as fast as possible to augment an escaping technique. or third, to uproot the opponent's CG (exactly like Judo principles) before a throw.
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sukuinage.htm

kiba dachi
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kataguruma.htm

zenkutsu:
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/seoiotoshi.htm

I'm just pointing out one answer(by showing judo throws) of how a 'stance' is transitional and not just static.

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#239869 - 03/20/06 05:30 AM Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Great posts guys, all good information and views.

Certainly i view different stances in different ways, ie transitional (striking and evasion)for movement and 'static' for force application (locking/pinning and throwing) and sometimes both, at different times......

However by its very nature, feet facing directly forward, sitting into the stance to root, pushing the knees out to the outside of the foot the naihanchi dachi in my mind lends itself only to static application of force (and if im honest mainly downward control),

you just dont/cant 'naturally' step through it, and the position when 'made' correctly is locked. This is where I see it as not as practical for application as shiko dachi (or naihanchi dachi with the feet slightly open, natural).

I work naihanchi dachi as Motobu Sensei describes, feet slightly over shoulder width apart, not to wide as a classic Japanese shiko dachi/kiba dachi.

Ask any begineer to relax when standing and see what happens with the feet, they simply point outwards a little, everytime.

Now another example is say in naihanchi kata we are working from a strong naihanchi dachi allowing our upperbody to turn when performing all the side techniques, in the classical naihanchi dachi this doesnt feel natural, I actually feel like im working against myself, if i splay my feet a little and allow the opposite foot to turn out (almost forming a front stance to the side) the force delivery seems much more comftorable and effective, not locked, with more structure I realise that the 'torque' is different, perhaps the torque is the important lesson from the stance?

_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#239870 - 03/20/06 11:18 AM Re: Naihanchi Dachi/ Shiko Dachi [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Jim,

I'm somewhat on Ed's side, using the naihanchi dachi as a finish to a technique, not a staging platform to launch an attack. Of course the name of the stance varies by the style.

Consider

| | Naihanchi Dachi (motobu)
/ \ Naihanchi Dachi (isshinryu)
-------------------------------------------------
| | Kiba Dachi
\ / Shiko Dachi
\ / Seiuchin Dachin (isshinryu)

Aside with Isshinryu's naihanchi dachi / \ stance (toes inward), this is contrary to Motobu's opinions in his 1930's publications, but Isshinryu's founder did train with Motobu. Whether his opinion changed in time I can't say. The finishing use of the innward toe technique can represent a lower leg lock/tkd for the opponent.

The way I interpret the lower body technique of the isshinryu nihanchi kata, it contains a great many attacks to your opponents lower body, and the return to the naihanchi stance represents the conclusion of that lower body attack and the accopmanying upper body movement.

A side benefit found in the upper body turning in naihanchi is its development of the abdominal area for the spin in Chinto kata.

There remain many other perspectives. One of the Shimabuku Ezio lineages of Naihanchi work 180 degree turns into the kata during execution, offering another view of the technique potential. Of course the technique can be executed in any direction, forward or backwards in style.

I even teach teenagers jumping spinning crescent kicks in naihanchi (perverse that I am) to use their excess energies abit.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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