{sigh}

You make quite an assertion without factual basis here. What you're asserting is "[insert MA here] is distinct because of factor 'X', therefore it thrives and continue to exist".

An art, or system, or style exists or becomes extinct despite it's distinctiveness. It's more attributable other factors, such as political climate, evolutionary dominance or lack of promotion and succession than anything else.

Many distinctive and innovative products prematurely die and go to WalMart heaven due to lack of marketing and promotion. Why would it be any different in the MA world?

And I continue to assert that nothing is distinct. Continual refinement, shifting emphasis, or even re-discovery of existing principles, strategies, tactics and techniques will always happen in some shape or form. But none of this is "distinctive" in any way.

Contrary to popular belief, the original taekyon which TKD was supposedly derived from, was derived from Soobak (Subak), which itself was originally influenced and derived from Chinese quanfa. Soobak originally consisted of taekyon (striking techniques) and yusool (grappling), but yusool was gradually de-emphasized in favour of striking (perhaps for the purposes of war during that period in Korea's history?).

Soobak's popularity declined during the Yi dynasty which was founded on the ideology of Confucianism, which stressed literary art instead of martial art. Soobak practice was relegated to competition purposes only (called subakhui). After three subakhui bouts, the winner could then become employed as a soldier.

Recently, Soobak (or Taekyon, as it is more commonly called today) has seen an upsurge in popularity, possibly in response to the similar surge of popularity of Tae Kwon Do.

Evolutionary change is inevitable. But the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Yes, the dime-a-dozen soke comment is made in direct reference to the "20th degree great-grandmaster hanshi renshi soke" who is operating his huge competition dance studio and charging outrageous fees based upon his extravagant title while claiming to teach SD.

I don't have a problem with a few patches that have some meaning. I don't have a problem with a few more belt colors than other styles. I don't have a problem with some commercialization. I know that Johhny's uninformed parents are going to fall for the trap of glitz and glammer, and chalk it up to the myth "you get what you pay for". It's the dishonesty of that instructor that I have a problem.

This is the question now, what are we, the real MAists who know what elements are necessary for viable training, doing to spread the word and educate the average non-MAist about mcdojoism and bullshido. I say that it is our responsibility, when we know someone who is interested in MA to educate them on their choices and what different types of training are available to them. Think of the long term effect if each of us managed to help a few people, then those people helped a few people later down the road, and so on and so forth. I think ten years from now we could put a serious dent in the economy that feeds mcdojos.

After a while, you get tired of worrying and being annoyed about what others are doing. The day that I can't find a decent place to train is the day I continue training on my own and only seek out individuals to train and trade with as oppossed to establishments. I don't need anything that a dojo or mcsoke sells. I'd say that day is only a few years away for me.
The thing I am more concerned about with the soke-syndrome is with the dumbing down of society in general...more people falling for high-level scams due to receiving less rounded education and putting blind trust in false perceptions of authority(official sounding titles/styles/etc). Less critical thinking in society gives the false soke or businessman that much more customer-base to work with.
Look around, it's not just with MA that has been racing to the bottom.

I have met a couple of people who argue that taekyon is not the root art of TKD. TKD's history is too steeped in politics to discuss in any great detail with certainty. I don't like to debate on this topic, because I honestly don't know the truth about it. (I find remarkable similarities between Shotokan and TKD but less similarities (particularly in the way kicks are performed) between HKD and TKD)

I will say that you need students to continue an art. The more students you can attract, the greater the chance that your art will survive. Do the math, it's quite simple. You are discussing established MA. I am discussing budding MA. When you create an art, in order to survive, you've got to convince your students not to join an established art but instead yours. How do you convince them?

There are many ways an art can be distinct, technical, philosophical, and even the emphasis placed on certain parts of training can make an art distinct. What do you define distinct as?

I think that there is a much broader range of things which contribute to an arts popularity, number one being its public image and ability to impress potential students. Do you agree that popularity increases the chances of survival? If not, why?

Quote:

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nothing is distinct

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Is Hapkido indistinct from Jujutsu?

Interesting.

That's a quick way to kill the thread. And you were doing so well arguing your point too...

I'm not sure I can argue my point any more, I'm all out of points to make. I'm pretty sure you're right about what you're discussing, you're simply approaching the topic from a different perspective to the way I did.

Not much more to say.

It would be interesting to watch the founding of a new martial art first-hand though and discover exactly what makes it survive.

If any other points come to mind, I'll post it.

History has a funny way of repeating itself.