FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 48 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TomRosenberg, jessylin, play, Keith_G, LeroyCFischer
22937 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
jwwmantis 2
harlan 1
Beefcake 1
LeroyCFischer 1
William_Bent 1
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
2015 Master Yang Jwing-Ming Seminar
by jwwmantis
12/05/14 10:36 PM
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by
12/27/06 11:43 AM
Your true goal
by
03/03/06 07:16 AM
Recent Posts
Your true goal
by Beefcake
12/11/14 02:44 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by LeroyCFischer
12/04/14 02:07 AM
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Forum Stats
22937 Members
36 Forums
35590 Topics
432525 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#157761 - 06/18/05 05:31 PM A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I read this once and it helped me progress in my instruction to others. I no longer have the actual article so I'll have to paraphrase.

A young warrior once sought instruction in the martial arts from a wiseman who lived in the mountains. After traveling many miles from home he comes to the foot of the mountain and begins his journey. Upon arriving at the hut of the Old Master he tells him of his journey and humbly asks to recieve instruction from the renowned teacher.

After a moments thought the Oldman replies that he will not teach the young Warrior. Though discourage the young Warrior remains determined and stays with the Oldman, asking for instruction and seking acceptance.

After a few days he begins to do the Oldmans menial tasks, cooking, gathering water from the stream, going to the market and so on.
After a few months the Oldman begins to instruct the young warrior and eventually produces a skilled practitioner of his art.

Now the two men part ways, the Young Man satisfied from his learning, and the Old man satisfied having shared something of himself with someone else by providing the instruction. And both are satisfied by having the companionship of the other.

When they first met, the two men in the story could not relate to one another as they had little in common. As the young man began to take on the Oldmans chores, he lived a few days in the life of the Oldman and was better able to understand him. Now that he had been in shoes they had a common ground. From this common ground and understanding of eachother came and knowledge and instruction were able to be passed from one to the other freely and without effort.

Getting to know your student is a good thing. When the enviroment is comfortable, people will relax. Once relaxed Communication(the key to learning or teaching) becomes much easier and the vibe within your Kwang or dojo becomes friendly and homelike. When that is achieved everyone learns, the instructor included.
.

Top
#157762 - 06/18/05 10:17 PM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: Chen Zen]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Chen,

This only works if you think each person is worthwhile in the relationship. What if the Oldman turns out to be a real goof, though technically proficient, and the student learns that despite living in the mountains he's an alcoholic, abusive man with a drug problem? But on the outside all spit and shine?

Sometimes too close an inspection leads to truths you would rather not have...or would have liked to have known before proceeding.

-B

Top
#157763 - 06/18/05 10:50 PM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: butterfly]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
What if the Oldman turns out to be a real goof, though technically proficient, and the student learns that despite living in the mountains he's an alcoholic, abusive man with a drug problem?

Then along with the art he would have learned what it is like to live with an abusive alchoholic with a drug problem.
I'm not sure which is the more valuable lesson. He might learn that excellence doe's not insulate us from the pain of life and success can ultimatly be a failed stratagy for overcoming the fear of insignifigance. He might also learn mercy, forgiving, boundries, and moderation.

Top
#157764 - 06/18/05 10:55 PM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: oldman]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Oldman,

You are right...but what if there were two students and only one knew the whole truth? Is it better to forgive and ignore or inform and walk away.

Life unlike stories, is harder and much riskier. And can be more rewarding.

Warmest regards,
-B

Top
#157765 - 06/18/05 11:45 PM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relatio [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I was going to post something, but it would have just been too long.

The best thing I have read so far on the student-teacher relationship comes from a spiritual aspect. Not for everyone. If you are interested, you can find it in:

The Dzogchen Primer
essays compiled by Marcia Binder Schmidt

Essays are "The Qualified Master" by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and "The Guru, the Vajra Master" by Chogyam Trungpa

Top
#157766 - 06/19/05 08:40 AM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: Chen Zen]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
There is a story from the Mahabaratta of India where a poor student goes to ask apprenticeship of a great guru archer. The guru sees that the young man is by far the best archer he has ever seen and to accept him would be a great choice, not least because it makes sure no other student of another teacher will be as good as this one.

The problem is that the guru has already promised another student that he will make him the greatest archer in the world. The guru knows that the second student will never be as good as the first one.

What a dilemma...

Guru says he will take the first boy as a student, but for a price. The student must cut off his thumb and give it to the guru. While this effectively ends his archery career it buys the boy apprenticeship to the great guru. He accepts because the honour of apprenticeship to a great guru is higher than the honour of being a great archer.

How about that one?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#157767 - 06/19/05 02:26 PM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: butterfly]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure, there is always risk in learning the truth becaus it isnt always pretty, however, as a former instructor I would want to know the type of person I am teaching Martial skills to before releasing him into society. Undoubtedly he will learn things about me as well which will all influence his decision to accept the teaching. And perhaps, how he will use that knowledge.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#157768 - 06/19/05 08:33 PM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: trevek]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Gives gurus the bad rap they have now. First your thumb, then...

There is another story where a group of people went searching for a bona fide master. They located him, asked him to take them on as students, and he agreed on the condition that they all renounce their former teachers. All agreed but one. The teacher only accepted the pupil who refused.

Top
#157769 - 06/20/05 08:47 AM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: harlan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
A little bit off MA, but similar in respect to relationships. A girl I knew was studying Indian dance and anthropology. She wanted to go to India to learn and asked her teacher for help finding another teacher, in India. She was surprised that the teacher was not happy because she thought she was obviously trying to better herself and therefore better dance it self. She failed to understand the notion that by seeking another teacher she was disrespecting her current one and it should be upto the teacher to tell her to find another one.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#157770 - 06/20/05 09:44 AM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: trevek]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
If I went to China to develop my skills, my teacher would be more than happy to help me find a teacher.

I am going to Greece to fullfill my military obligations in two years, and I cant think of a better person to ask about finding a good school, than my teacher.

Everyone finds and makes their own path, and its not in the pace of the teacher to stand in the way of your development, it is their position to teach and assist in develoment.
Jealousy should not be in a teacher's vocabulary.

Its good for the teacher in my opinion to keep a certain distance from the student initially just to set the rules, and the boundaries of class.
A teacher should not be subject to buts and ifs all the time, and there should be an added level of dicipline because of the subject matter; so as long as those boundaries are made, then a relationship should be allowed to develop after you get to know each other as people.

Top
#157771 - 06/22/05 02:55 PM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: MAGr]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Personally I agree with you and I've been lucky enough to train with guys who have been helpful in suggesting other trainers when I have trained away or have been willing to write a letter of introduction should I find a club where I would be a new, unknown. Likewise, the receiving clubs have treated me very welland usually allowed me to wear my belt and/or association uniform (in the case of things like TKD).

My old TKD sabum once asked me why I hadn't been to the club for a while. I apologised for not training but I had been doing a theatre play and had a lot of rehearsals. He asked what it entailed. I said it involved memorising routines and words, rehearsing them again and again and keeping at it until you got it right, both yourself and your partners in the work. He shrugged, "I thought you said you hadn't been training! Just cos it isn't kicking and pounching, it doesn't mean it isn't training."
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#157772 - 06/23/05 04:22 AM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: trevek]
Chang Wufei Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
I agree with the story to an extent.

When you think about it, a key factor in this story is the student. He was determined, and made a long journey, he was dedicated, and had an ambition to train under the master. This is where the story forks.

I agree with this story in terms of such a determined student, like a disciple. I think it is a bit more difficult to apply it to modern times, as students come and go. Now, martial arts, to some people, means a twice a week work out at your local rec center. Not something you neccessarily take home with you, or live as a lifestyle. Many people are just there to give it a try. I don't think there is anything wrong with this.

This is also where I (very strictly) define "Martial Artist" from "Martial Arts Practitioner"
_________________________
If you have to ask, you'll never know.

Top
#157773 - 06/24/05 09:01 PM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: Chang Wufei]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Its a shame that its been reduced to that. I hate to go into a school where the students arent passionate about what they are doing.

The student was a major element to the story; as you suggested. If he had just a "passing interest" he would have came and gone long before earning the older mans trust and respect. The story speaks about the relationship between the two and about the students dedication but it also refers to a moral obligation a instructor has in knowing that the person he has given the martial skill to isnt likely to use for purposes other than defence.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#157774 - 06/30/05 07:01 AM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: Chen Zen]
Chang Wufei Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
I agree, it is a shame. But what's worse than seeing students with no ambition, are students with no interest. I have seen more of those recently, there are a few students around here who have told me they absolutely hate being here, but their parent(s), usually the father, won't allow them to quit.

It's really sad.
_________________________
If you have to ask, you'll never know.

Top
#157775 - 08/02/05 12:53 PM Student-teacher dynamic [Re: Chang Wufei]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Another contribution to think about on this topic.

"The day that I recognized my teacher as a Buddha, that was when I understood the nature of my own mind."

-Milarepa

Top
#157776 - 09/02/05 04:53 AM Re: A story reflecting the teacher-student relationshi [Re: Chen Zen]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Your opening story brings to mind the largely eastern custom of arranged marriages, which are still going on now in some parts of Asia.

It is found that arranged marriages very rarely end in divorces; when interviewed, the main reason seems to be, the couple falls in love AFTER they got married and have the rest of their lives appreciating each other.

In the so-called 'love marriages' where they fell in love in an extended courtship before they got married, by the time they are married, familial coolness has already set in.

I am not sure how this ties in with your story about the oldman and the student getting to know and appreciate each other in a gradual natural process of living together, but it just seems to me there is a connection somewhere.

I count this as my first off topic post; I'll never do it again, until the next time
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  Cord, JKogas, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga