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#157711 - 06/18/05 05:08 PM A personal preference on Speed or power
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
As a martial artist do you seek to have Exceptional speed and moderate power or do you train for power with adequate speed?

Personally, I lean towards speed, seeking to attain power from it.

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#157712 - 06/18/05 09:03 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
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I go for speed AND power, I can't say that I emphasize one over the other. I guess that speed would be the more important factor of the two, IMO.
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#157713 - 06/18/05 09:53 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Well, if Force = Mass X Acceleration (and acceleration can be a vector change), you can't really change the mass of your hand and body...better to try to increase acceleration and keep good form.


-b
-B

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#157714 - 06/19/05 01:11 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: butterfly]
madmattg Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Of course you can change your mass, hence weights and cardio to be lean with as much muscle that allows for greatest acc. Therefore you hit as fast as possible with greatest acc your body allows whilst carrying as much of your bodies mass behind it.

Then your have your greatest hit for your body type.
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#157715 - 06/19/05 10:58 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: madmattg]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Madmatt,
I understand what you are saying but I was referring to any particular instance. If the mass of your body and hand is known...now, the only other option is to increase the acceleration of the technique to increase its force.

You can change body weight for a specific future time....but right "now," you have to deal with what you got and the only variable you could possibly change in this equation is the increase in speed over time (acceleration).

I hope that clarifies what I was trying to get across. Of course there is also the implication of making the technique as fluid as possible to maximize the acceleration of your technique.

-B

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#157716 - 06/20/05 06:54 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: butterfly]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Putting on mass, makes the acceleration component of the equation smaller. I am not against lifting weights, I am against pumping up. It slows you down and makes you weaker. I have seen this first hand, where beefy guys come in to class and are so stiff and big that they cant punch unless they take a run up.
I agree that speed is more important, because it allowes you to hit more times and more succesfully and also increases the power of your strike.

There are examples in most sports where power is derived from fluidity of motion and speed of technique rather than relying on brute strength.

Now of course I am not saying that massively built people arent strong..., its just that in my opinion, there should be a balance, and as soon as your technique suffers due to mass, then its time to stop.

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#157717 - 06/23/05 04:31 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
Chang Wufei Offline
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Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
Chen Zen, I am about the same as far as my training. I also think its important to learn techniques that aren't as fast, but very powerful. Like comparing a snappy roundhouse kick to a swinging thai kick. The thai kick is slower, but more powerful. Certain techniques are better kept black and white, in my opinion. For example, I wouldn't try to make my thai kick really fast, but in the process lose the power behind it as a result of not turning my waist and body weight into it.
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#157718 - 06/23/05 12:20 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chang Wufei]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Dude,

I don't know if you have ever been on the receiving end of a MT round kick. But it is not slow. If you are thinking comparatively speaking with TKD kick and MT, I think it is still very fast and it has never been the "slowness" of a technique that demonstrated its utility, it has always been the need at the moment.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful here, but if you had a choice of making any particular technique faster, or not....why wouldn't you?

-B

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#157719 - 06/23/05 12:33 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
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I think I have a problem with the other half of Chang's argument as well.

Snap kicks are not limited in power compared to anything else. Proper mechanics are proper mechanics. I drive my current JKD instructor crazy because I do a "snap" shin kick. He tells me that I am not doing it right (read: MT style), but even he admits that it does not lack power compared to anyone else's.

If you are getting proper weight transfer and target penetration with good speed, you will have an effective strike.
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#157720 - 06/23/05 01:01 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: MattJ]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I love that snap shin kick. Its great! even if it doesnt reach at times it still distracts enough to whail in with punches. Keep doing it man, the advantages of having it snap as opposed to control are much better.
If I can venture a guess, he asks you to keep it there to control the leg of the attacker? I think you can still block whilst snapping, and in fact you gave me a good idea for my sparring session tonight,: snap, distract, attck with punches!
*sshhhhh.....dont tell my partner*

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#157721 - 06/23/05 01:52 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: MAGr]
MattJ Offline
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I almost always use my kicks to "take the opponent's space". They set up my punches, and also interfere with the opponent's footwork. "Leg chi sao", if you will.
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#157722 - 06/23/05 02:07 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
I lean towards speed also. For me it's more about speed and simplicity. I watched a muhammed ali ( sorry about the spelling i have no idea how to spell his first name, i'm a bad speller anyway ) fight the other night and man watching him evade those punches was like poetry in motion. He really knew how to move. The fight i watched with ali in it was awesome. anyway just thought i'd add that. peace

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#157723 - 06/24/05 01:44 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: butterfly]
Chang Wufei Offline
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Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
I have been on it's receiving side many times, seeing as I fight Muay Thai. I am not calling it a sluggish kick, I am comparing the movement speed of the attack and the contraction, a forceful, cutting through motion, compared to a snapping, expand-and-contract motion of a roundhouse.

I kind of did a hurried explanation, so my main point was very obscure.
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#157724 - 06/24/05 02:13 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chang Wufei]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Chang,

Then I politely withdraw my objections to your previous post, and agree. Your explanation is good!

-B

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#157725 - 06/25/05 11:17 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: butterfly]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Although the arcing motion does take a little more time, it is still a hard technique to evade due to its range; often forcing you to block it rather than simply evade and even blocking the technique is damaging as well as dangerous.
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Lao Tzu

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#157726 - 06/27/05 08:45 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
muaythaiguy Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 108
Loc: Michigan, USA
If it were possible, I would want the learning and mastering of a technique to go something like this. Learn crazy powerful technique, practice crazy powerful technique in sparring and otherwise to make crazy powerful technique more powerful and crazy fast as well. Use said super-crazy powerful/crazy fast technique in competition.

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#157727 - 06/30/05 07:08 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: butterfly]
Chang Wufei Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
Thank you, and sorry for the miscommunication.

Chen Zen- I totally agree. The roundhouse is a beautiful weapon, especially against taller opponents. I don't enounter them too often, I am 6' 2", but when I do, I use a series of alernating left-to-right roundhouse kicks to the midsection, almost like a "Roundhouse Blast" in comparison to the straight blast. It works very well, and the advance is fast, so my opponent tends to back up rather than circle me. Great distance closer.
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#157728 - 07/29/05 06:29 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chang Wufei]
mantis_boxing Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 62
strike with speed, after repeating 100000 times there will surely be power. How do you strike with power? hit hard

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#157729 - 07/29/05 02:44 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: mantis_boxing]
imcrazy Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 492
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Well this has always been my way of thinking about, there will always be someone bigger. By that I mean when it come sto on the street, most "street fighters" train more for mass and strength to make up for their lack in technique, therefore no matter how sloppy your punch is as long as it lands with all your mass behind it someone is going down (course this doesn't account for if someone is able to dodge it or counter, but thats my next point). So in order to be able to take on these big guys (if my only choice is to fight that is) you need speed, as well as good technique, to be able to avoid these slow but powerful attacks.

Now you may call this flawed logic and thats fine. If your wondering how I came up with this, its simple observation from what I've seen. If you look around much of the uneducated public (when it comes to martial arts) has the general consensis that bigger is better, the more muscle mass you have the more successful you will be in combat. Anyhow just what i believe, and if there are flaws in my logic then feel free to correct me, so I can correct it myself.
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#157730 - 07/30/05 02:25 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: imcrazy]
funstick5000 Offline
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Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
i think for most people this depends on their build as well as their technique, right now (i'm still growing a lot) i'm built for speed over power so i'm better hitting thick and fast and evading, wheras if i grow into the body shape of my dad then i'd be better suited to power and landing heavier blows (hes a stocky bloke) my 1.14p
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#157731 - 08/18/05 06:39 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: funstick5000]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
Speed equals Power

Power does not equal speed.

Would you rather, get hit by a bullet moving 3000 feet per second. Or hit by a large truck doing 10 mph.
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To have all style is to have no style.

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#157732 - 08/18/05 06:40 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: otobeawanker]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Speed equals Power

Power does not equal speed.

Would you rather, get hit by a bullet moving 3000 feet per second. Or hit by a large truck doing 10 mph.




Whew.....that's a toughie..
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#157733 - 09/02/05 09:18 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
64445 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/02/05
Posts: 10
its all about snap my friend, tightning the muscles at the last possible moment to cause the whip effect which accelerates your srike causing more impact power. then follow through with the turning of the waist.

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#157734 - 09/18/05 02:28 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: otobeawanker]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Quote:

Speed equals Power

Power does not equal speed.

Would you rather, get hit by a bullet moving 3000 feet per second. Or hit by a large truck doing 10 mph.




I don't know man, I just quite can't see myself getting out of the way of the truck in time.

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#157735 - 09/20/05 08:29 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
I tend to train my lead hand and foot for speed when standing just outside fighting measure. However, when i find an opportunity for a big shot, E.g after my opponent reacts to a feint, i let it fly. That isn't to say that the lead shots shouldn't be powerful, with correct movement of your centre of gravity and body torque your leading straight punch can even knock a person out. sometimes, i like to jab a few times to try and keep the opponent on the defensive and at the same time i torque my body round fully to get in the position for my most powerful cross.
I think that speed is probably more important (especailly with footwork) but you also need to know how to throw your power shots when the time comes. don't forget that even the smallest of people can hit very hard. For me, focusing on my technique has increased both my speed and power dramatically. I sincerely believe that once you learn proper technique by many hours of specifically training to improve it, then all aspects of your martial art will greatly improve.

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#157736 - 09/20/05 11:20 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: jkdwarrior]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think a equal portion of both is required speed at a distance is immeasurably important, but power inside weather in technique or just skilled brute strength is important when in close clinching and grappling + techniques/counters. Leverage is great and starts a techniques, but Technique with power is almost unstoppable when vying for control. A certain amount of quickenss helps inside.

But all this is for not, if taken out from long to mid range, speed and accuracy that deliever powerful strikes at these ranges are utmost important counter defensively and offensively.

I work more for speed being naturelly powerful.
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#157737 - 09/20/05 03:49 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: otobeawanker]
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Quote:

Speed equals Power

Power does not equal speed.

Would you rather, get hit by a bullet moving 3000 feet per second. Or hit by a large truck doing 10 mph.




I'd rather not get hit

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#157738 - 09/20/05 05:08 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: ChangLab]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Niether, one will blow right through you possibly killing you the other will knock you down and crush you to death.

I'd rather be wise enough not to be in its way. The path of least resistance. Speed and power is whats needed.

I'd rather have a glancing blow from the truck, you could possible turn, roll out of it. A glancing strike from the projectile gonna hurt bad. Thats really an example that favors the speed option.


Edited by Neko456 (09/20/05 05:08 PM)
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#157739 - 09/20/05 09:35 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Neko456]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
Both are important. So i say a equal amount of both.
to much wight fat/muscle will make you slower, and to much speed by to much speed i mean someone who only trains speed and is weak has no real muscle mass it will be hard for the fast but weak person to hurt a large person used to being hit. so a equal amount of both is the answer that will get the best results in combat and or sparring. that's my opinion anyway. i havn't posted in awhile before this one so hi and later to everyone.

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#157740 - 09/20/05 10:40 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
h3kk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 4
Loc: canada
the question is how would you train? the speed ofcourse, equals to power. wat i mean by my question is, obviously when you train for speed, it would strenghthen yourself during the process...be it, weight lifting, running, speed punching, and so on. all these, would strenghthen your muscle and with that moderate power plus speed and distance and timing...you'll have quite a pack in your attacks. combat is more about speed, distance and timing...brute force would just do the opposite to you. in conclusion, my example is...if a guy charges at you, you attack a good spot at the right timing, with the right speed, your movement has momentum in it, plus your relase of your fists *personal power*, and the momentum of the opponent charging at you. If you add all these up...your attack would be devastating
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#157741 - 09/23/05 02:58 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: h3kk]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
the attack might would hurt him somewhat but i think it might would hurt you just as much. all his force crushing into your fist could easily break your wrist. and i also don't believe that speed always equals power. for example like i said if a fast but very small person hit a big or bigger person it might not would have much effect on the bigger person now if the smaller person did the same with much more muscle mass then the outcome might be different. the thing is to be strong but also fast. neither of the two alone will work well for long.

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#157742 - 09/25/05 07:41 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: etaks86]
jkdwarrior Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
How about this? A smaller faster guy is more likely to get in the first few shots. Right? Well what if he attacks the groin or eyes. It's gonna hurt like hell even if you're 280lbs of muscle. What I'm saying is that for competition, yes that the bigger guy usually wins, but when there's no rules, and the first few shots are all that matter, then i would go for speed.
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#157743 - 10/01/05 03:08 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: jkdwarrior]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
sure sure maybe.

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#157744 - 10/06/05 06:39 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: etaks86]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
The definition of Power is moving large weight at slow speed. I would personally never consider a strike from this perspective.

So if your asking what I'd train more between power and speed, it's always gonna be speed.

If your worried that your gonna break your wrist if you strike something too well. Then I'd suggest a heavy bag.

With speed and technique, will come great force in your strikes.
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#157745 - 10/08/05 11:10 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
foreverrocker Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 55
Of course to achieve both is ideal. Speed is the way I would go if I had to choose, depending only on my abilities. If I was a bad striker and not good at getting inside... I would use my speed to run away.

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#157746 - 10/09/05 04:45 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: foreverrocker]
QuietGuy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Bethlehem,PA
I for one used to train for speed only and I thought it was going pretty good until a few months ago me and a friend of mine decided to full contact spar. There isnt much of a difference in hieght and wieght between us so I thought I would win easaly since I train like crazy. It turned out that I was faster than him but my hits felt like girly hits and his few hits felt like he was 100lbs hievier. That got me mad training all that time for nothing. We are both Masons but hes been doing it longer than i have so he doesnt need to lift any wieghts. So I changed my training ways to focus more on power and strenth.

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#157747 - 10/13/05 03:16 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: otobeawanker]
Fluid_Motion Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 37
What?? Have any of you guys taken physics? I definitely choose power because speed is part of power; or rather, quickness.
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#157748 - 10/30/05 12:31 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

As a martial artist do you seek to have Exceptional speed and moderate power or do you train for power with adequate speed?

Personally, I lean towards speed, seeking to attain power from it.




Being built like a string bean, but blessed with natural quickness, common sense tells me to train towards my strengths while doing my best to compensate for my weaknesses. So I emphasize speed, while hitting the weights to bring strength and mass along as much as possible.
That said, if I had my druthers, I'd opt for strength with adequate speed so long as the third side of the "triangle", good coordination and timing, is present.
If you can flow from one attack into the next with power, or defend-attack-defend-attack with fluidity and power, adequate speed is all you need.
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#157749 - 12/02/05 11:26 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: MAGon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Always a great contributor. Good answer Magon
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#157750 - 12/10/05 03:06 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
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Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

Always a great contributor. Good answer Magon




We tries to please, Takezo.
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#157751 - 12/16/05 03:09 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
Trejo539 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 22
how do you train for speed in kicks and in pucnhes?

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#157752 - 12/16/05 04:41 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Trejo539]
MattJ Offline
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Repetition.
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#157753 - 12/25/05 01:51 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Trejo539]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Footwork. To be able to punch or kick with speed you must be able to move your body quikly. This starts with the feet. Then repetition, bag work, shadow boxing and finally sparring. True speed isnt when you are hitting a speed bag a hundred times but soft as a feather, rather true speed is accomplished when you are able to perform a technique properly, under pressure, with positive result.
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#157754 - 12/26/05 10:30 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
Kentao5 Offline
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Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 34
Loc: Mount Joy, Pa.
Speed can also be determiined by the body mechanics involved. One of my training mantras..."It's not how fast you move, it's how you move fast."

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#157755 - 12/26/05 11:25 AM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Kentao5]
MattJ Offline
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Good post, Chen. Footwork IS key to speed.

Good post Kentao5, and welcome to the forums. The more efficient your mechanics are, the more that will help your speed.
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#157756 - 12/26/05 01:52 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: butterfly]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Well put.
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#157757 - 01/05/06 04:49 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
Trejo539 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 22
Quote:

Footwork. To be able to punch or kick with speed you must be able to move your body quikly. This starts with the feet. Then repetition, bag work, shadow boxing and finally sparring. True speed isnt when you are hitting a speed bag a hundred times but soft as a feather, rather true speed is accomplished when you are able to perform a technique properly, under pressure, with positive result.




thanks for the advise. my kicking and punching have inproved so much. i actually recorded myself and now my kicks and punches are a blur. hhaahahah. its really cool to see people flinch after my punch and/or kick is done. you should see thier faces.

thanks again
later

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#157758 - 02/02/06 06:45 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Chen Zen]
swift Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 10
When I was a teenager my aunt had a friend who studied Kung Fu and had attained black belt status. Once in a conversation he asked me what was better in regards to a fight power or speed. He followed by giving me an analogy of a bullet. He stated if I had a bullet in my hand and threw it at you not much damage could really occur yet if I increased the speed of that bullet by shooting it through a gun then how much damage could be done? Speed when harnessed and chaneled soundly is power...

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#157759 - 02/05/06 03:58 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Trejo539]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

how do you train for speed in kicks and in pucnhes?




Combination of repetition, bag work and weight lifting.
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Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#157760 - 02/05/06 07:21 PM Re: A personal preference on Speed or power [Re: Leo_E_49]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
and footwork
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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