Let's look at this logically. Takamatsu is said to be the last of the true "ninja". This is a strong belief in most circles of ninjutsu/ninpo, even Genbukan. Tanemura only met Takamatsu once a year prior to his death. Tanemura's training through godan at the very least was through Hatsumi. So how is it that Tanemura received the "true" scrolls if he only met the only "true master" once before he died? Because he received his training from Taqkamatsu's other students. Genbukan is not better than Bujinkan and vise versa. They are different arts with similar roots. Neither Hatsumi, Tanemura or Manaka are "The" grandmaster of ninjutsu or ninpo. They are each founders of their own art based on the study of togakure, kumogakure and gyokushin ryu. Hatsumi is the only living "grandmaster" of all nine ryu because those are the ryu he received menkyo kaiden in and combined to form the Bujinkan. Tanemura is the only living "grandmaster" of Genbukan Ninpo Bugei because that is the art he founded from his studies.

There is something people need to understand. More than one person can receive menkyo kaiden in a single art. This doesn't make them the "grandmaster" of that art. Hatsumi was given menkyo kaiden but was also left "in charge" of certain arts passed from Takamatsu while others were left "in charge" of other arts. Hatsumi, Tanemura and Manaka all have menkyo kaiden in the three NINPO styles. Yes they are all three ninpo. Togakure-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken, Gyokushin-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken and Kumogakure-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken. Hatsumi was left "in charge" of these but that doesn't restrict others from incorporating them into their system.

This is where the separation comes in. The Genbukan makes the ninpo aspect an integral part of the art. It’s part of your training, like it or not. Ninpo is also part of the Bujinkan but not as prevalent as in the Genbukan. It is studied more in the higher ranks and aids in the godan test (sakki test). This is said to be why Robert Bussey left the Bujinkan, the ninpo aspect of the art was against his religion preventing him from taking the sakki test.

The names of these organizations are just that, names. They were chosen to distinguish them from the stereotype of ninjutsu and set them apart from one another. What it all comes down to in the end is your preference in teaching styles and structure. The Bujinkan flows with the years theme and is less restrictive on the shidoshi for ranking prior to godan. The Genbukan is more structured and has set fundamentals that are to be met for ranking. Both have the same goal, just a different path. Regardless of the rift that may be between Hatsumi and Tanemura they both have great arts that compliment one another. No one is more “authentic” than the other. As for the over rated scrolls. They are recreations, not the originals. Most of the original scrolls were destroyed around the time of WWII. These scrolls are said to have been a copy made about 20 years prior in 1920.

tanamura had to go and train till mastership with each of the masters the scrolls were give too. as far as the rest of it, hatsumi claims the rank of grandmaster of all nine ryu ha but they are being disputed not only by tanamura soke but but tanamura sokes masters that gave him the scrolls. well im sick of this topic theres too much to write and other than laff there isnt anyone to put in any real educated opinions. i am still saying tho if you bujinkan people had the opertunity to one class in genbukan you would all switch. you can still say no but i bet you cant take just one :P

I have trained with Genbukan. I don’t hold one any higher than the other. How is Hatsumi's menkyo kaiden being disputed? Hatsumi was a direct student of Takamatsu and Ueno, Tanemura was not. You seem to have issues with a man you have never met for things you have HEARD were done to another man you have never met. Tanemura helped form the Bujinkan so saying they are wrong is saying Tanemura is wrong too.

Let me give you a little advice. Don't get tied up in the politics. It doesn't concern you. Stay with the training and instructor you know and trust and don't worry about the he said she said garbage. It means nothing. How does the legitimacy of Hatsumi's rank affect your training? All you should be worried about is the legitamacy of you instructor’s roots and Tanemura's history. Besides, all of this animosity goes against ninpo.

egcprince,

I say don't train with either group. Find a Jinenkan dojo and follow Manaka's path. You rarely here his name in these political debates and he has been around just as long as Tanemura if not longer.

Hey Laff, Guess what I just left Naval Service 3 months ago. Anyway, It's very interesting what your saying about Manaka. Any good ideas as far as info finding. I have been in Bujikan for about 2 months. I come from a Kung-fu, taekwondo and Thai Boxing background. I am really enjoying this new traing, but I also am trying to delve deeply into its, roots. Let me knwo

I personally have nothing against any of the groups; i just try to stay away from the politics. I don't think it's relevant to the training. The only reason i mention Manaka is like i said, i rarely hear his name in the political debates. His website is jinenkan.com. There is a lot of information out there on these groups; you just need to sift through the opinions and hearsay to find the common threads. It's truly ALL about what organization you feel comfortable with. When it comes to ninjutsu/ninpo they are all pretty much on the same page.

Wesd, I see you are very passionate based on your reply to my post...judging by the ferocity that you defend your own style and discredit others. But I was merely pointing out that the site is a very good site for people as above who are interested in Ninjutsu but dont know where to start.
I must say, I train in the bujinkan system but have never heard my Shidoshi or any of the other Sensei "trash-mothing" other Ninjutsu Sensei, styles, or their schools for that matter. Perhaps they are more comfortable with who they are, and what they teach.
Personally, I don't think I would ever had spoken in such a way about the head of your school. Its a dishonour to any martial arts system, and disrespectful to a man that if not your Sensei's teacher, then his peer.
If your style, or teachers spend so much time telling their students such negativities concerning other schools, it is a shame. If they are not, and it is only you with such hatred and disrespect for those you do not even know, then that too, is a greater shame.
Any martial artist that does this has a diverted focus, trying to make their school better by making another seem worse.
Pity.
As a great martial artist once said:
"You can not make another's line of knowledge smaller, you must make yours longer."
You might think I'm not making sense, but if you think hard enough, you'll find I am.
Sorry guys, I didn't want to start fresh into this forum making trouble. (I would have answered this early but I've been overseas for a while on business)

"You can not make another's line of knowledge smaller, you must make yours longer."

Nice one!