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#157324 - 06/21/05 10:20 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I am sorry but you are assuming that I have been taught WC in a specific way. You are not even reading my responses. Like someone said before, intelligent people usually agree after a reasonable arguement has been put forward.

Read this:
I am not saying that you have to use bong sau, I am saying that you have to learn bong sau. I am also taught to use what works for me, but I am not going to subtract anything from wing chun because it doesnt work for me, that is how martial arts get watered down. I am not in any position, and neither is leung or Lee to choose what stays and what goes in WC. Something may not work for you but it may work for someone else, so if you want to be able to teach someone WC you should be able to teach him/her everything not just what works for you, and ofcourse there are versions of it a lineages, but you cannot decide "oh, I am not going to teach bong sau, because it doesnt work for me!" that is a very arrogant attitude.

You want to take an art form and bastardise it then its your perogative, but if you are being taught that you can take any technique and incorporate it as a wing chun technique then you are mistaken and misguided.

I also have taken techniques from other fighting styles and incorporated them into my sparring not. BUT if someone asks me to teach them wing chun I would not teach them those techniques as wing chun because they are not. MAs evolve and so does wing chun, and the forms between schools and lineages have differences, but you cannot add an extra that suits you form and say that "MY WC has 4 forms!" gimme a break!

You obviously are being taught non-traditional WC and that is fine, and you may even be a better fighter for it, but recognise it for what it is. Yes you can do knees, yes you can do anything you damn well want, but there are some things that have always been part of WC and some things that you have added.

You obviously have a completely different teaching to mine, and believe when I tell you that I see nothing wrong with the way you are being taught, but also believe me when I tell you that however adaptible WC is not a concept! It may have less strict boundaries and syllabus than say shotokan, but its definetely not anything goes! The footwork for example is specific, if you are dancing around like a boxer that is not WC footwork, you may not like it, it may not suit you, but that does not mean it doesnt have a set type of footwork.

Read the Tao of JKD by Lee, since you are mentioning him so much to defend your arguement, and you will find that when Lee talks about formlessness he says that in order to truly have formlessness you first have to learn it as it is, with the rules the boundaries, the specific techniques, and then you can break it down and use what works for you. If someone straight from the beginning incorporates whatever they want, they will never understand the true concepts behind the art. If you have just started (and that is a royal you) WC how can you decide if the bong sau works or not before you master it?
What you are saying is right but for very, very advanced practitioners of wing chun.

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#157325 - 06/21/05 12:08 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
Quote:

Something may not work for you but it may work for someone else, so if you want to be able to teach someone WC you should be able to teach him/her everything not just what works for you, and ofcourse there are versions of it a lineages, but you cannot decide "oh, I am not going to teach bong sau, because it doesnt work for me!" that is a very arrogant attitude.




I never said you should do that, that is the total opposite of what I was talking about.

Quote:

You want to take an art form and bastardise it then its your perogative, but if you are being taught that you can take any technique and incorporate it as a wing chun technique then you are mistaken and misguided.




It is not bastardising anything, Wing Chun is concept based and once you've learnt the basic system you are expected to incorporate anything you find useful and disguard anything that is not. It is not about "Wing Chun techniques" at all, or something you consider another MA technique. I'm not being told that some standard Thai Boxing strike is Wing Chun - I never said that. What I said was that Wing Chun as a concept based MA, like JKD, teaches you not to be constrained by ideas of "style" but to use anything and everything which is practical.

I also never said that people add new forms into Wing Chun, but it is obvious that each teacher do their forms differently because their understanding is different. I've seen videos of Siu Lim Tao performed by respected practitioners where actions are missing that are present in my form. They also perform movements in slightly different lines, or with different emphasis on different parts of the motions. These are differences in the way Wing Chun concepts are understood and examples of how Wing Chun is a dynamic art that is changing based on individual understanding. That is not to say that people are inventing new forms, but most schools will teach Wing Chun quite differently.

I am being taught Wing Chun directly from the Yip Man/Wong Shun Leung lineage. Does this make my WC "non-traditional"? There is a fundamental base to WC teaching, attempting to instil a new automatic and bio-mechanically efficient response to a threat. And this uses the forms, dummy etc (knives and long pole are more like "graduate" studies) and the well known drills to nuture this in the practitioner. Obviously even this will be dealt with differently depending on who is teaching you. But the idea is that once you have taught your body to behave in this way, then you should expand (I guess what you would call JKD). This is a Wing Chun concept that goes back further than Bruce Lee

Of course Wing Chun is not "anything goes" because what you use must fall within the concepts - economy of motion, non-telegraphic attack, efficiency, striking from the position you are in etc. If you watch some of the Bruce Lee sparring videos he has adapted the "Wing Chun" footwork to suit his personal style, as did Wong Shun Leung, as should any WC practitioner who has completed the system and is exploring the concepts.

Quote:

Read the Tao of JKD by Lee, since you are mentioning him so much to defend your arguement, and you will find that when Lee talks about formlessness he says that in order to truly have formlessness you first have to learn it as it is, with the rules the boundaries, the specific techniques, and then you can break it down and use what works for you.




This is exactly what Wong Shun Leung said, and what his students continue to teach - learn the rules very well (e.g. fixed elbow position) until you can do it in your sleep, then break the rules. You can apply things like fixed elbow position when it is practical. Going into a fight with a fixed stance or posture is not practical, you cannot tell how the fight will be - hence you employ things when you need them and respond adaptively to attack.

Quote:

If someone straight from the beginning incorporates whatever they want, they will never understand the true concepts behind the art. If you have just started (and that is a royal you) WC how can you decide if the bong sau works or not before you master it?




Exactly. I totally argee. This is what I was getting at when talking about how JKD and WC are often taught. There is often a lack of emphasis on training people to fundamentally understand and apply concepts rather than encorporated various "techniques" from different "styles" into their fighting. Only if you grasp the concepts can you know what you are looking for and what is wrong with motions you are currently using and what weaknesses you have.

Quote:

What you are saying is right but for very, very advanced practitioners of wing chun.




Ah I see, we do understand each other! This is what I meant by different road to the same goal. The WC I am talking about is about delivering concepts to the person, this is done through the WC "system" of conditioning and the manuals of the "forms". Once all the concepts are understood and can be employed properly, then you move on to stuff similar to what Bruce Lee ended up calling JKD, but was actually part of the WC concept that Leung was advocating.

The difference may appear when people forget what the conditioning is for, and take concepts like "fixed elbow position" and "horse stance" as the truth and that these must not be disrupted. Or when they go into a fight looking to use "bong sao" or "lap sao".

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#157326 - 06/21/05 12:34 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Ok, so we do agree.

You know what my problem is? And I am sure we agree on this also, is when I see idiots entering tournaments and what not, claiming that they are doing wing chun, and they get battered because they have done 2 years of some hybrid-whatever-works-for-you malarkey. There are a lot of wing chun schools that are phoney and teach a watered down version/MMA wing chun right from the beginning. And there there is the other extreme of schools who are so involved in their "tradition" that they teach no realism or application, no fitness, no nothing, why? because wing chun is the best, because its so easy and all that crap. And then there are other people that because they havent seen a single decent WC dude in action they assume WC is not effective.

In fact, I have seen very little in the way of actual WC and thats why I got a bit defensive and rude, and I apologise.

Good luck in your training!

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