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#157304 - 06/17/05 07:15 PM What style to pick?
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
Hey, i'm new to these forums. I want to learn a kung fu style but i'm not sure what kung fu style would be good for me. I have a black belt in Taekwondo but i didn't like it as a style. I'm pretty heavyset with broad shoulders. I'm 5'9" and I currently weigh 204 lbs. (Though some of that is probably fat.

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#157305 - 06/17/05 08:43 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
Leapordsknowbest Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 100
Loc: Nashville,Tenneessee
You should try tiger kungfu. It is suit for bigger people since they can better control those smaller than you.

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#157306 - 06/17/05 09:00 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: Leapordsknowbest]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
would that be shantung tiger?

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#157307 - 06/17/05 09:02 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
What you need to do is check out the schools in your area and find one that suits you. Try not to limit yourself strictly to Chinese arts. It's not the name of the style so much as the instructor and type of school.

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#157308 - 06/17/05 09:37 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
Leapordsknowbest Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 100
Loc: Nashville,Tenneessee
No, Fu Jow Pai(tiger claw). Your talkin bout the internal one but you can do that aswell. Just that that 1 is pretty hard to find an instructor.

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#157309 - 06/18/05 12:01 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: Leapordsknowbest]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
there are only two chinese martial arts places in my area (Memphis) that i know of. One teaches tai chi chuan, bagua, and wushu, and the other teaches Northern Shaolin. I don't want to do wushu (i think it is supposed to be more aesthetic than practical.) and i heard Northern Shaolin is a big kicking style, kind of like taekwondo and in that case, i don't think it would work for me. The reason i'm not interested in other styles is because i'm not particularly fond of taekwondo and karate is too much like it for my taste.


Edited by ta_kuan_dao (06/18/05 12:03 AM)

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#157310 - 06/18/05 06:57 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
cks_cropper Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 63
Honestly m8, the best thing to do is firstly see what you have in your area. That is what I did when I was starting up, I went down to a few classes at each club to watch how they did things to see if it would suit me. I ended up going down to the one I decided on about 7/8 times to look at all the different classes they had on. It is prob a bit hard for people to suggest a style because they could suggest one, say Lau Gar kung Fu which im doing, and it most likely wont be in your area. Best going to actually look what they are like.

thanx
CKS

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#157311 - 06/18/05 08:19 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: cks_cropper]
madmattg Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Definetly check out your area and see what the instructor is like, how hard they train and the other people that are training.
_________________________
It wasnt the bow or the arrow......It was Robin Hood.

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#157312 - 06/19/05 04:08 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
Fangshendo Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 26
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada
Pick a style that teaches what you want to learn.I was in TKD for 5 years and left it because it focused too much on kicking,very little on punching and basically nothing on grappling.The style of Kung-Fu I am studying now teaches all 6 ranges of fighting and so I find it to be a very complete system.

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#157313 - 06/19/05 09:18 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: Fangshendo]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Northern Shaolin actually is the one known for long low stances. I don't know how to describe Wushu (in general terms) but don't let preconceptions mislead you. Check out the schools in your area. That's what it takes. If you don't like what's availabe in Chinese arts, go find something different. You might find that one of the Filipino styles fit you better. Or, a Karate might work for you, or a Korean style.

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#157314 - 06/20/05 07:36 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
still try wing chun, it should be taught more as a concept than a style, but it is suitable for anyone. I've found some websites that are more along these concept lines rather than commercial schools that teach "techniques". Their descriptions should give you a flavour of what to look for around where you live. Good luck, just make sure you pick something that "clicks" with you so you enjoy it and consider it practical!

http://users.softpress.com/oxfordwingchun/
http://www.teamwingchun.co.uk/v8_main/v8_main.htm
http://www.taokwoon.com/taokwoon/likpagemain.htm - english site being constructed

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#157315 - 06/20/05 08:45 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Wing chun is not a concept.
Its a style, it has specific techniques, and it has specific principles governing those techniques. JKD is a concept, wing chun is a style.
There may be room for interpretation, but not more thanin any other martial art.
You have the three forms, you have the unique stance and you have the principles, and strikes. And you have the butterfly swords with their own wing chun form.

I have a slight problem with the second link you gave, at one point, he says that unlike other MAs you can master wing chun with two easy lessons a week. What a load of manure. I train every day, and I know plenty of schools that advertise that wing chun, you dont need to be powerfull, you dont need to be fit, you dont need to be this or that....because its wing chun.
As much as I love wing chun, and admire its techniques, there is NO MA in the world that you dont have to train hard for in order to master. And two easy lessons a week wont cut it!
It is a compressed study of other kung fu styles that is meant to be learnt in five years, but that is in the sholin temples where they trained 8 hours a day!

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#157316 - 06/20/05 01:22 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
You may be taught Wing Chun as a style, but I am not, and I do not believe it is helpful to consider Wing Chun as a style. That can only constrain your expression

Any "techniques" in Wing Chun are based on concepts, not set motions. JKD borrows heavily from these ideas, and Wong Shun Leung was the one who influenced Bruce Lee to think about what is practical and to use what works...not to be constrained by any idea of "style" or fixed system. If you read this article - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pborowingchun1/bruce_lee.htm - then it seems that Bruce himself strayed from application of this philosophy and began incorporating some less practical motions into his fighting.

Most people who learnt Wing Chun via the Leung lineage continue this way of thinking, even if other schools consider Wing Chun to be a style.

The three forms are for nothing more than conditioning the body to move in certain ways that are based on concepts of economy of motions etc. The way Bruce Lee faught was also heavily grounded in the Wing Chun stance because he continued the concepts he had experienced from his time with Wing Chun

Two 4 hours a lessons a week is what most people doing MA will have time for. Where I train some people only come in twice a week to put their skills into practice, have been doing so for 5 years. Away from the school they will do their own fitness training too. It is ridiculous to suggest that you cannot be good at Wing Chun unless you break past some magic threshold, doing 5 hours a day every day or whatever.

That 2nd link is to a school run by one of Nino Bernardo's students, who was himself taught directly by Wong Shun Leung. If you go to Nino's website - www.ninbernardo.com - then he also calls Wing Chun the "art of being lazy". That isn't to say you don't have to train hard to be extremely good, but of course by doing two 4 hours sessions a week for many years you will eventually complete "the system".

You seem to view Wing Chun very differently to the way I have come to understand it. If you want to see it as a style, some compact version of numerous Chinese Kung Fu styles, and that works for you...then fine. But please don't start TELLING me that Wing Chun is a style simply because that is how you are taught it.

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#157317 - 06/20/05 02:51 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
Hey thanx for the input. yeah, when i get my driver's license i'll be able to check out the places around my area. The three places that i'm really looking at are the wushu place, northern shaolin place, and an aikido place. I don't really want to learn wushu (i rather learn a more traditional kung fu), but the instructer there teaches bagua and chen tai chi chuan and a guy i know who had went there, said the instructer was a good teach. The northern shaolin school has northern shaolin, wing chun, and yang tai chi. I'm not interested in Aikido, but the place teaches okinawan kempo and it also has another instructer who teaches kendo and judo that my old tkd instructer said was a good teach. But i'm also asking around my chinese and taiwanese friends if they know anyone who can teach kung fu and give private instruction. I'm not really interested in being "official", just "real".


Edited by ta_kuan_dao (06/20/05 02:51 PM)

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#157318 - 06/20/05 03:07 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
You do have a good start going. Follow through on the referrals you've gotten, that's always a good thing.

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#157319 - 06/20/05 07:16 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I said its free for interpretation, but its not JKD. Every style is free for enterpretation and should be approached like that after building the basics. But if you are adding hooks for exmple, then you are straying away from the wing chun principles. If you kick to the head you are straying away from the wing chun principles. The very fact that it has principles that govern the motion, (angling, economy of motion, simulteneous attack and defence, etc) means that it is a system, not a not a concept.

And I m sorry but you can be good after few years of two easy lessons a week, but the very fact that wing chun is taught on a neuro response basis means that repetition is the way forward.

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#157320 - 06/21/05 06:57 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
If you say Wing Chun has principles then you think JKD has no principles? You think JKD has no "basics"? The concepts of interception, no telegraphing, economy of motion, straight lines etc from Wing Chun are what Lee based his JKD on - a grounding that Lee took from Leung. Lee himself said that he learnt his Kung Fu from Leung, and he constantly kept in touch to get feedback on his abilities.

Is Wong Shun Leung wrong to say he practised Wing Chun because he also believed that you had to search for the strengths in other ways of fighting and adopt what is practical and works for you? No. This is what he considered Wing Chun to be - the application of concepts that you deem to be practical in fighting, and this involves incorporating anything you discover from others or from your own experiments to be practical.

Bruce Lee did not finish learning Wing Chun from Leung before Lee moved to the US...he came to similar conclusions and decided to call it JKD. But they were essentially pracitising the same philosophy, the application of certain concepts to fighting

JKD also has concepts of economy of motion, interception, simulatenous movements etc - lifted from Lee's experience of Wing Chun. But just like Wing Chun, JKD doesn't tell you to become a slave to those concepts at all costs. Of course you can kick to the head or use a hook punch in Wing Chun...if it is practical in the moment. JKD will say the same. Just like you shouldn't aim to keep the fixed elbow position at all costs, you only employ it when needed. This is why they are concepts and not principles or rules.

Obviously this is not how you have been introduced to Wing Chun, and if learning a rigid system/style has worked for you, then great. But it doesn't work for me

And yes of course repetition is the way forward but it was silly for you to claim that you cannot learn Wing Chun unless you practise for hours every day, that is simply not true...and it seems you have realised this. All of Nino Bernardo's students will be the first to tell you that if you want to be excellent and go beyong the "good" ability, you will need to do far more training than that.

I also remember someone in this forum telling me that you should only strike if you are 150% sure that you will hit the target. I only ask how you know for sure that you will hit? How do you know what your opponent will do? This kind of thinking is again problematic and deluded in fighting

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#157321 - 06/21/05 07:34 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I thkn you are confusing JKD with WC. They are not the same thing. JKD is a concept, it is what works for each individual. You dont have to learn the Bong Sau in JKD, in wing chun you do. The wooden dummy form has a specific set of moves. There are also 3 empty hand forms. Dont tell me that you are taught that you can alter the form? If you alter ANYTHING from the WC system then you are not practicing WC. I am not saying that you should or that you shouldnt, and I have myself added things to my arsenal from other arts, but I have not added anything to WC.

Quote:

Is Wong Shun Leung wrong to say he practised Wing Chun because he also believed that you had to search for the strengths in other ways of fighting and adopt what is practical and works for you?




You just said it. He adopted OTHER ways of fighting, meaning that WC has a SPECIFIC WAY OF FIGHTING.
NO I dont think its wrong, its actually very right in my opinion, but its NOT WC. Its WC with something else.

Quote:

Bruce Lee did not finish learning Wing Chun from Leung before Lee moved to the US...he came to similar conclusions and decided to call it JKD. But they were essentially pracitising the same philosophy, the application of certain concepts to fighting




They agreed on certain aspects of fighting. If you doa judo throw it might be the best otion at the time, but its not WC! I am not saying that people should not incorporate other styles into WC just like Lee and Leung, but dont tell me that its wing chun.
I ve done some ninjitsu which is good for disarming people and I have incorporated it into my training, but that does not make it wing chun.

Have you ever heard WC being described as
Quote:

the application of concepts that you deem to be practical in fighting


???
I m sorry to break it to you but if you are studying that, then you are not studying wing chun. I m not saying that the above philosophy is wrong, I actully think its right, but its a philosophy that can be adopted by anyone, its not wing chun.

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#157322 - 06/21/05 09:18 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: MAGr]
DefenselessChild Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 103
I'd have to agree with Magr. JKD is GENERALLY considered a concept. And WC is GENERALLY considered a style. That's the popular concensus at least.

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#157323 - 06/21/05 09:40 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
I am not confusing JKD and WC, you are misinformed if you think there is much difference between the two "categories". Wing Chun may well be taught as a style by most, but this is not how I am taught, nor how Wong Shun Leung taught Bruce Lee & Nino Bernardo. This form of Wing Chun is flexible and adaptable. How is Wing Chun anything but a concept? How can understanding of efficient use of body mechanics, in an adaptive and responsive manner, non-telegraphic attack, interception, economy of motion, practicality etc be anything other than concepts?

You don't have to use bong sao in Wing Chun, and you can use it in JKD if you wish. Don't forget that JKD was born from Lee's Wing Chun base

Wing Chun is also a concept that works for each individual. You use what works for your body, what you consider to be effective, and what you consider to be practical in a fight. It has been taught as a style by many, and I guess that is fine, but that is not the only "Wing Chun" there is. Just like JKD is also taught as a style by many.

The dummy & 3 forms are not for use in fighting, they are more like manuals to condition the body to move in certain ways and certain lines. You think "the form" is done the same way by everyone who does "Wing Chun", or that it means the same thing or contains the same concepts? Of course not. Yip Man even told his students to minimise everything, every motion...some of them went on to radically change their 1st form as a result. Here, Wing Chun is not seem as fixed or static, it has changed over the hundreds of years and continues to change. It is an adaptive and flexible system. Your form will reflect your understanding of the WC concepts, it's that simple.

You don't HAVE to put JKD-esque logic into practice as a novice, but once your body understands how to move in certain ways, then you can develop your own way of fighting with an UNDERSTANDING of the concepts and an ability to apply them. I see little point in beginning your MA journey by trying to do "JKD" or whatever because your body and mind will not be able to understand what it is looking for or best judge what to incorporate.

Noone teaches or performs "Wing Chun" the same way...so who is doing the "real" Wing Chun? I think you are being very simplistic in arguing that the only concept based fighting philosophy is the "JKD" of Bruce Lee - Bruce's fighting style was unique and he may have trained harder than was normal at the time, but his philosophy was not greatly different to that of Wong Shun Leung and certain "lineages" of Wing Chun. I am constantly told that we are practising concepts in WC, not that we are learning fixed "techniques" or a "style" of fighting. And I am constantly told that I should only use what is practical and what works for me.

When we do Wing Chun, you can include anything practical. Knees from Thai Boxing, any locks etc. As long as it is practical and effective - there is no "set" Wing Chun repetoire.

Wong Shun Leung did not adopt other ways of fighting, just like Bruce Lee didn't. This is like saying JKD is a specific way of fighting and that everytime Lee used something new then it wasnt JKD by another style. Wing Chun is a concept, and following this concept Leung incorporated anything he considered useful from his observations and fights with other MAs. If it was practical, non-telegraphic etc, then he would use it...just like Lee later would. This was his Wing Chun, it wasn't "ah, now I'll use a Judo throw" or "time for the fencing stance" - anything practical was incorporated into the "automatic pilot" you develop based on the WC concepts...concepts largely shared with Lee's JKD.

You consider WC to be a fixed style, well then JKD could also be a fixed style by the same logic. You simply understand WC as fixed, and many people don't. I don't think you should be telling anyone that WC only exists in the limited way that you understand it, simply because of the way you have been taught it and others have "generally" understood it to be. I understanding WC and JKD to be extremely similar, but with different journeys to reach similar ends. I don't know how Lee taught his JKD to novices, but JKD today is certainly taught in a different manner to how WC is (the WC I experience) - but the goals are essentially the same and were being put into practice before Lee coined "JKD" in the West.

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#157324 - 06/21/05 10:20 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I am sorry but you are assuming that I have been taught WC in a specific way. You are not even reading my responses. Like someone said before, intelligent people usually agree after a reasonable arguement has been put forward.

Read this:
I am not saying that you have to use bong sau, I am saying that you have to learn bong sau. I am also taught to use what works for me, but I am not going to subtract anything from wing chun because it doesnt work for me, that is how martial arts get watered down. I am not in any position, and neither is leung or Lee to choose what stays and what goes in WC. Something may not work for you but it may work for someone else, so if you want to be able to teach someone WC you should be able to teach him/her everything not just what works for you, and ofcourse there are versions of it a lineages, but you cannot decide "oh, I am not going to teach bong sau, because it doesnt work for me!" that is a very arrogant attitude.

You want to take an art form and bastardise it then its your perogative, but if you are being taught that you can take any technique and incorporate it as a wing chun technique then you are mistaken and misguided.

I also have taken techniques from other fighting styles and incorporated them into my sparring not. BUT if someone asks me to teach them wing chun I would not teach them those techniques as wing chun because they are not. MAs evolve and so does wing chun, and the forms between schools and lineages have differences, but you cannot add an extra that suits you form and say that "MY WC has 4 forms!" gimme a break!

You obviously are being taught non-traditional WC and that is fine, and you may even be a better fighter for it, but recognise it for what it is. Yes you can do knees, yes you can do anything you damn well want, but there are some things that have always been part of WC and some things that you have added.

You obviously have a completely different teaching to mine, and believe when I tell you that I see nothing wrong with the way you are being taught, but also believe me when I tell you that however adaptible WC is not a concept! It may have less strict boundaries and syllabus than say shotokan, but its definetely not anything goes! The footwork for example is specific, if you are dancing around like a boxer that is not WC footwork, you may not like it, it may not suit you, but that does not mean it doesnt have a set type of footwork.

Read the Tao of JKD by Lee, since you are mentioning him so much to defend your arguement, and you will find that when Lee talks about formlessness he says that in order to truly have formlessness you first have to learn it as it is, with the rules the boundaries, the specific techniques, and then you can break it down and use what works for you. If someone straight from the beginning incorporates whatever they want, they will never understand the true concepts behind the art. If you have just started (and that is a royal you) WC how can you decide if the bong sau works or not before you master it?
What you are saying is right but for very, very advanced practitioners of wing chun.

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#157325 - 06/21/05 12:08 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
Quote:

Something may not work for you but it may work for someone else, so if you want to be able to teach someone WC you should be able to teach him/her everything not just what works for you, and ofcourse there are versions of it a lineages, but you cannot decide "oh, I am not going to teach bong sau, because it doesnt work for me!" that is a very arrogant attitude.




I never said you should do that, that is the total opposite of what I was talking about.

Quote:

You want to take an art form and bastardise it then its your perogative, but if you are being taught that you can take any technique and incorporate it as a wing chun technique then you are mistaken and misguided.




It is not bastardising anything, Wing Chun is concept based and once you've learnt the basic system you are expected to incorporate anything you find useful and disguard anything that is not. It is not about "Wing Chun techniques" at all, or something you consider another MA technique. I'm not being told that some standard Thai Boxing strike is Wing Chun - I never said that. What I said was that Wing Chun as a concept based MA, like JKD, teaches you not to be constrained by ideas of "style" but to use anything and everything which is practical.

I also never said that people add new forms into Wing Chun, but it is obvious that each teacher do their forms differently because their understanding is different. I've seen videos of Siu Lim Tao performed by respected practitioners where actions are missing that are present in my form. They also perform movements in slightly different lines, or with different emphasis on different parts of the motions. These are differences in the way Wing Chun concepts are understood and examples of how Wing Chun is a dynamic art that is changing based on individual understanding. That is not to say that people are inventing new forms, but most schools will teach Wing Chun quite differently.

I am being taught Wing Chun directly from the Yip Man/Wong Shun Leung lineage. Does this make my WC "non-traditional"? There is a fundamental base to WC teaching, attempting to instil a new automatic and bio-mechanically efficient response to a threat. And this uses the forms, dummy etc (knives and long pole are more like "graduate" studies) and the well known drills to nuture this in the practitioner. Obviously even this will be dealt with differently depending on who is teaching you. But the idea is that once you have taught your body to behave in this way, then you should expand (I guess what you would call JKD). This is a Wing Chun concept that goes back further than Bruce Lee

Of course Wing Chun is not "anything goes" because what you use must fall within the concepts - economy of motion, non-telegraphic attack, efficiency, striking from the position you are in etc. If you watch some of the Bruce Lee sparring videos he has adapted the "Wing Chun" footwork to suit his personal style, as did Wong Shun Leung, as should any WC practitioner who has completed the system and is exploring the concepts.

Quote:

Read the Tao of JKD by Lee, since you are mentioning him so much to defend your arguement, and you will find that when Lee talks about formlessness he says that in order to truly have formlessness you first have to learn it as it is, with the rules the boundaries, the specific techniques, and then you can break it down and use what works for you.




This is exactly what Wong Shun Leung said, and what his students continue to teach - learn the rules very well (e.g. fixed elbow position) until you can do it in your sleep, then break the rules. You can apply things like fixed elbow position when it is practical. Going into a fight with a fixed stance or posture is not practical, you cannot tell how the fight will be - hence you employ things when you need them and respond adaptively to attack.

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If someone straight from the beginning incorporates whatever they want, they will never understand the true concepts behind the art. If you have just started (and that is a royal you) WC how can you decide if the bong sau works or not before you master it?




Exactly. I totally argee. This is what I was getting at when talking about how JKD and WC are often taught. There is often a lack of emphasis on training people to fundamentally understand and apply concepts rather than encorporated various "techniques" from different "styles" into their fighting. Only if you grasp the concepts can you know what you are looking for and what is wrong with motions you are currently using and what weaknesses you have.

Quote:

What you are saying is right but for very, very advanced practitioners of wing chun.




Ah I see, we do understand each other! This is what I meant by different road to the same goal. The WC I am talking about is about delivering concepts to the person, this is done through the WC "system" of conditioning and the manuals of the "forms". Once all the concepts are understood and can be employed properly, then you move on to stuff similar to what Bruce Lee ended up calling JKD, but was actually part of the WC concept that Leung was advocating.

The difference may appear when people forget what the conditioning is for, and take concepts like "fixed elbow position" and "horse stance" as the truth and that these must not be disrupted. Or when they go into a fight looking to use "bong sao" or "lap sao".

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#157326 - 06/21/05 12:34 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Ok, so we do agree.

You know what my problem is? And I am sure we agree on this also, is when I see idiots entering tournaments and what not, claiming that they are doing wing chun, and they get battered because they have done 2 years of some hybrid-whatever-works-for-you malarkey. There are a lot of wing chun schools that are phoney and teach a watered down version/MMA wing chun right from the beginning. And there there is the other extreme of schools who are so involved in their "tradition" that they teach no realism or application, no fitness, no nothing, why? because wing chun is the best, because its so easy and all that crap. And then there are other people that because they havent seen a single decent WC dude in action they assume WC is not effective.

In fact, I have seen very little in the way of actual WC and thats why I got a bit defensive and rude, and I apologise.

Good luck in your training!

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