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#157314 - 06/20/05 07:36 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
someotherguy Offline

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
still try wing chun, it should be taught more as a concept than a style, but it is suitable for anyone. I've found some websites that are more along these concept lines rather than commercial schools that teach "techniques". Their descriptions should give you a flavour of what to look for around where you live. Good luck, just make sure you pick something that "clicks" with you so you enjoy it and consider it practical! - english site being constructed

#157315 - 06/20/05 08:45 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Wing chun is not a concept.
Its a style, it has specific techniques, and it has specific principles governing those techniques. JKD is a concept, wing chun is a style.
There may be room for interpretation, but not more thanin any other martial art.
You have the three forms, you have the unique stance and you have the principles, and strikes. And you have the butterfly swords with their own wing chun form.

I have a slight problem with the second link you gave, at one point, he says that unlike other MAs you can master wing chun with two easy lessons a week. What a load of manure. I train every day, and I know plenty of schools that advertise that wing chun, you dont need to be powerfull, you dont need to be fit, you dont need to be this or that....because its wing chun.
As much as I love wing chun, and admire its techniques, there is NO MA in the world that you dont have to train hard for in order to master. And two easy lessons a week wont cut it!
It is a compressed study of other kung fu styles that is meant to be learnt in five years, but that is in the sholin temples where they trained 8 hours a day!

#157316 - 06/20/05 01:22 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
You may be taught Wing Chun as a style, but I am not, and I do not believe it is helpful to consider Wing Chun as a style. That can only constrain your expression

Any "techniques" in Wing Chun are based on concepts, not set motions. JKD borrows heavily from these ideas, and Wong Shun Leung was the one who influenced Bruce Lee to think about what is practical and to use what works...not to be constrained by any idea of "style" or fixed system. If you read this article - - then it seems that Bruce himself strayed from application of this philosophy and began incorporating some less practical motions into his fighting.

Most people who learnt Wing Chun via the Leung lineage continue this way of thinking, even if other schools consider Wing Chun to be a style.

The three forms are for nothing more than conditioning the body to move in certain ways that are based on concepts of economy of motions etc. The way Bruce Lee faught was also heavily grounded in the Wing Chun stance because he continued the concepts he had experienced from his time with Wing Chun

Two 4 hours a lessons a week is what most people doing MA will have time for. Where I train some people only come in twice a week to put their skills into practice, have been doing so for 5 years. Away from the school they will do their own fitness training too. It is ridiculous to suggest that you cannot be good at Wing Chun unless you break past some magic threshold, doing 5 hours a day every day or whatever.

That 2nd link is to a school run by one of Nino Bernardo's students, who was himself taught directly by Wong Shun Leung. If you go to Nino's website - - then he also calls Wing Chun the "art of being lazy". That isn't to say you don't have to train hard to be extremely good, but of course by doing two 4 hours sessions a week for many years you will eventually complete "the system".

You seem to view Wing Chun very differently to the way I have come to understand it. If you want to see it as a style, some compact version of numerous Chinese Kung Fu styles, and that works for you...then fine. But please don't start TELLING me that Wing Chun is a style simply because that is how you are taught it.

#157317 - 06/20/05 02:51 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
ta_kuan_dao Offline

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
Hey thanx for the input. yeah, when i get my driver's license i'll be able to check out the places around my area. The three places that i'm really looking at are the wushu place, northern shaolin place, and an aikido place. I don't really want to learn wushu (i rather learn a more traditional kung fu), but the instructer there teaches bagua and chen tai chi chuan and a guy i know who had went there, said the instructer was a good teach. The northern shaolin school has northern shaolin, wing chun, and yang tai chi. I'm not interested in Aikido, but the place teaches okinawan kempo and it also has another instructer who teaches kendo and judo that my old tkd instructer said was a good teach. But i'm also asking around my chinese and taiwanese friends if they know anyone who can teach kung fu and give private instruction. I'm not really interested in being "official", just "real".

Edited by ta_kuan_dao (06/20/05 02:51 PM)

#157318 - 06/20/05 03:07 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
Bushi_no_ki Offline

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
You do have a good start going. Follow through on the referrals you've gotten, that's always a good thing.

#157319 - 06/20/05 07:16 PM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I said its free for interpretation, but its not JKD. Every style is free for enterpretation and should be approached like that after building the basics. But if you are adding hooks for exmple, then you are straying away from the wing chun principles. If you kick to the head you are straying away from the wing chun principles. The very fact that it has principles that govern the motion, (angling, economy of motion, simulteneous attack and defence, etc) means that it is a system, not a not a concept.

And I m sorry but you can be good after few years of two easy lessons a week, but the very fact that wing chun is taught on a neuro response basis means that repetition is the way forward.

#157320 - 06/21/05 06:57 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
If you say Wing Chun has principles then you think JKD has no principles? You think JKD has no "basics"? The concepts of interception, no telegraphing, economy of motion, straight lines etc from Wing Chun are what Lee based his JKD on - a grounding that Lee took from Leung. Lee himself said that he learnt his Kung Fu from Leung, and he constantly kept in touch to get feedback on his abilities.

Is Wong Shun Leung wrong to say he practised Wing Chun because he also believed that you had to search for the strengths in other ways of fighting and adopt what is practical and works for you? No. This is what he considered Wing Chun to be - the application of concepts that you deem to be practical in fighting, and this involves incorporating anything you discover from others or from your own experiments to be practical.

Bruce Lee did not finish learning Wing Chun from Leung before Lee moved to the US...he came to similar conclusions and decided to call it JKD. But they were essentially pracitising the same philosophy, the application of certain concepts to fighting

JKD also has concepts of economy of motion, interception, simulatenous movements etc - lifted from Lee's experience of Wing Chun. But just like Wing Chun, JKD doesn't tell you to become a slave to those concepts at all costs. Of course you can kick to the head or use a hook punch in Wing Chun...if it is practical in the moment. JKD will say the same. Just like you shouldn't aim to keep the fixed elbow position at all costs, you only employ it when needed. This is why they are concepts and not principles or rules.

Obviously this is not how you have been introduced to Wing Chun, and if learning a rigid system/style has worked for you, then great. But it doesn't work for me

And yes of course repetition is the way forward but it was silly for you to claim that you cannot learn Wing Chun unless you practise for hours every day, that is simply not true...and it seems you have realised this. All of Nino Bernardo's students will be the first to tell you that if you want to be excellent and go beyong the "good" ability, you will need to do far more training than that.

I also remember someone in this forum telling me that you should only strike if you are 150% sure that you will hit the target. I only ask how you know for sure that you will hit? How do you know what your opponent will do? This kind of thinking is again problematic and deluded in fighting

#157321 - 06/21/05 07:34 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: someotherguy]
MAGr Offline

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I thkn you are confusing JKD with WC. They are not the same thing. JKD is a concept, it is what works for each individual. You dont have to learn the Bong Sau in JKD, in wing chun you do. The wooden dummy form has a specific set of moves. There are also 3 empty hand forms. Dont tell me that you are taught that you can alter the form? If you alter ANYTHING from the WC system then you are not practicing WC. I am not saying that you should or that you shouldnt, and I have myself added things to my arsenal from other arts, but I have not added anything to WC.


Is Wong Shun Leung wrong to say he practised Wing Chun because he also believed that you had to search for the strengths in other ways of fighting and adopt what is practical and works for you?

You just said it. He adopted OTHER ways of fighting, meaning that WC has a SPECIFIC WAY OF FIGHTING.
NO I dont think its wrong, its actually very right in my opinion, but its NOT WC. Its WC with something else.


Bruce Lee did not finish learning Wing Chun from Leung before Lee moved to the US...he came to similar conclusions and decided to call it JKD. But they were essentially pracitising the same philosophy, the application of certain concepts to fighting

They agreed on certain aspects of fighting. If you doa judo throw it might be the best otion at the time, but its not WC! I am not saying that people should not incorporate other styles into WC just like Lee and Leung, but dont tell me that its wing chun.
I ve done some ninjitsu which is good for disarming people and I have incorporated it into my training, but that does not make it wing chun.

Have you ever heard WC being described as

the application of concepts that you deem to be practical in fighting

I m sorry to break it to you but if you are studying that, then you are not studying wing chun. I m not saying that the above philosophy is wrong, I actully think its right, but its a philosophy that can be adopted by anyone, its not wing chun.

#157322 - 06/21/05 09:18 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: MAGr]
DefenselessChild Offline

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 103
I'd have to agree with Magr. JKD is GENERALLY considered a concept. And WC is GENERALLY considered a style. That's the popular concensus at least.

#157323 - 06/21/05 09:40 AM Re: What style to pick? [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
I am not confusing JKD and WC, you are misinformed if you think there is much difference between the two "categories". Wing Chun may well be taught as a style by most, but this is not how I am taught, nor how Wong Shun Leung taught Bruce Lee & Nino Bernardo. This form of Wing Chun is flexible and adaptable. How is Wing Chun anything but a concept? How can understanding of efficient use of body mechanics, in an adaptive and responsive manner, non-telegraphic attack, interception, economy of motion, practicality etc be anything other than concepts?

You don't have to use bong sao in Wing Chun, and you can use it in JKD if you wish. Don't forget that JKD was born from Lee's Wing Chun base

Wing Chun is also a concept that works for each individual. You use what works for your body, what you consider to be effective, and what you consider to be practical in a fight. It has been taught as a style by many, and I guess that is fine, but that is not the only "Wing Chun" there is. Just like JKD is also taught as a style by many.

The dummy & 3 forms are not for use in fighting, they are more like manuals to condition the body to move in certain ways and certain lines. You think "the form" is done the same way by everyone who does "Wing Chun", or that it means the same thing or contains the same concepts? Of course not. Yip Man even told his students to minimise everything, every motion...some of them went on to radically change their 1st form as a result. Here, Wing Chun is not seem as fixed or static, it has changed over the hundreds of years and continues to change. It is an adaptive and flexible system. Your form will reflect your understanding of the WC concepts, it's that simple.

You don't HAVE to put JKD-esque logic into practice as a novice, but once your body understands how to move in certain ways, then you can develop your own way of fighting with an UNDERSTANDING of the concepts and an ability to apply them. I see little point in beginning your MA journey by trying to do "JKD" or whatever because your body and mind will not be able to understand what it is looking for or best judge what to incorporate.

Noone teaches or performs "Wing Chun" the same who is doing the "real" Wing Chun? I think you are being very simplistic in arguing that the only concept based fighting philosophy is the "JKD" of Bruce Lee - Bruce's fighting style was unique and he may have trained harder than was normal at the time, but his philosophy was not greatly different to that of Wong Shun Leung and certain "lineages" of Wing Chun. I am constantly told that we are practising concepts in WC, not that we are learning fixed "techniques" or a "style" of fighting. And I am constantly told that I should only use what is practical and what works for me.

When we do Wing Chun, you can include anything practical. Knees from Thai Boxing, any locks etc. As long as it is practical and effective - there is no "set" Wing Chun repetoire.

Wong Shun Leung did not adopt other ways of fighting, just like Bruce Lee didn't. This is like saying JKD is a specific way of fighting and that everytime Lee used something new then it wasnt JKD by another style. Wing Chun is a concept, and following this concept Leung incorporated anything he considered useful from his observations and fights with other MAs. If it was practical, non-telegraphic etc, then he would use it...just like Lee later would. This was his Wing Chun, it wasn't "ah, now I'll use a Judo throw" or "time for the fencing stance" - anything practical was incorporated into the "automatic pilot" you develop based on the WC concepts...concepts largely shared with Lee's JKD.

You consider WC to be a fixed style, well then JKD could also be a fixed style by the same logic. You simply understand WC as fixed, and many people don't. I don't think you should be telling anyone that WC only exists in the limited way that you understand it, simply because of the way you have been taught it and others have "generally" understood it to be. I understanding WC and JKD to be extremely similar, but with different journeys to reach similar ends. I don't know how Lee taught his JKD to novices, but JKD today is certainly taught in a different manner to how WC is (the WC I experience) - but the goals are essentially the same and were being put into practice before Lee coined "JKD" in the West.

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