FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 30 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TomRosenberg, jessylin, play, Keith_G, LeroyCFischer
22937 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
jwwmantis 2
futsaowingchun 1
Zombie Zero 1
Beefcake 1
LeroyCFischer 1
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
2015 Master Yang Jwing-Ming Seminar
by jwwmantis
12/05/14 10:36 PM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by
12/27/06 11:43 AM
Your true goal
by
03/03/06 07:16 AM
Recent Posts
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
Your true goal
by Beefcake
12/11/14 02:44 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by LeroyCFischer
12/04/14 02:07 AM
Forum Stats
22937 Members
36 Forums
35591 Topics
432526 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 ... 11 12 >
Topic Options
#156830 - 06/17/05 09:11 AM Does age matter
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
In light of another thread, Id like to pose this question.
Does age play a role in teaching MA.
If so then in what way.
Obviously its not the only criteria, but is it important. Or does age not matter, and the only thing in question is the skill level?

Top
#156831 - 06/17/05 09:35 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Different situations, different criteria.

Example #1: adult class, geared towards effective fighting (ie street defense). At least 28 yo with 3rd black for head instructor, and, depending upon style, 16 with a brown or above (but less than head instructor) for assistant instructor (eg being supervised but learning how to teach)

Example #2: Youth (age 13-17) does not need to be run by head teacher all the time (see above for criteria), can be run by 2nd black or higher, at least 25 years of age.

#3: junior's class (10-12) for men, must have at least black belt, must be at least 25 (unless the parent of more than one child). For women, must have brown belt, must be at least 22.

#4: children (9 and under) for men, Must have black belt, must be at least 25 (unless parent of more than one child), for women, must have studied for at least 2.5 years, must be at least 16.

Note that the only situations in which a senior/head instructor is necessary is where the classes involve adults training for SD. That is the only time when you NEED someone with tremendous age and experience to teach, when the people actually NEED to have the proper training.

Youth situations are different because a HS fight is hardly ever life threatening. Should a youth attend that dangerous a school, then he/she needs more adult type instruction, but should the youth attend a decent school, then he/she, should be somewhere between a sport oriented MA and SD oriented training.

Women get an allowance for the younger groups simply because I have seen that women are just better with younger children unless the guy (who is being compared) is a parent. (I'm an uncle and I still don't compare to a 16 year old girl when it comes to handling small children.)

Top
#156832 - 06/17/05 09:51 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Bushi,
I agree with all that you said.
But I am not being specific here.
I am asking about a dojo that has adult students or that accepts adult students.

Even in the case that it is just kids however, I still maintain the position that they will not receive quality instruction in MAs if taught by a teenager. The teenager girl, might know how to handle kids better, but wouldnt it be better to have someone who can handle the kids and has had more experience in regards to teaching, getting through, transmitting the techniques. Someone who has the mental capacity to 'invent' appropriate drills for kids.
A teenager does not have the MA experience to break down the art and to be able to do so to the extent that she/he can make up new drills, or revamp the learning process.

I am all for any ages teaching as assistants because that is how you learn how to teach. But running your own dojo?

I am not sayig that 19 yearolds cant handle kids, I am saying that the same person with 5 more years of experience would be an even better teacher, and so why settle for less? Surely there is a minimum standard. In most other businesses there are standards agencies.

Top
#156833 - 06/17/05 09:59 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
It would be better in five years, but for a dojo that strictly teaches children, not necessary. Bring in youths and adults, and the standards go up.

Top
#156834 - 06/17/05 10:05 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well, if it does then it matters both ways...age of teacher and age of pupil. I believe that it is 'maturity' that counts. Maturity of teacher, and pupil. This is the very reason one rarely sees the close, one on one, mentoring relationships. (Water seeks its' own level.)

The more one tries to quantify, and qualify (i.e. standardize) the martial arts...the more one turns it into that very thing one reviles (McDojos). Is it really the tools that are concerned with...or the process of learning?


Edited by harlan (06/17/05 10:06 AM)

Top
#156835 - 06/17/05 10:16 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: harlan]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Harlan, I am going to tell you right now, prodigies ARE immature. Period. Actually, I haven't met one yet that wasn't immature or had something else going on that stinted their ability to function as adults at any age, and (while I've never personally met him) by all accounts that includes Albert Einstein. And I am more than considered a part of that statement.

This relates to the topic because there are just certain ages where a person is mature enough for certain things. A person is not ready to be a business owner, let alone a teacher of adults in the fighting arts, until they are almost in their thirties. Men actually make better fathers after 25 (but before thirty) because they are mature enough to be a father without being forced to be that mature. Women, however, have a natural tendency towards caring for children, that takes hold at a much earlier age. My sister is a prime example. Life is way screwed up, but when she has her daughter, everything else takes second place.

The issue is maturity, but also what age it comes at. The people who have maturity at a younger age just aren't available for the level of study that a prodigy would have, and prodigies don't have the maturity until a much later age to run a dojo. That leaves everyone else, who becomes mature enough for certain things at certain ages.

It does work both ways as well. Children and Juniors have no business learning the full application of MA because they are not mature enough, physically or mentally, to handle it. Youths should be transitioning from sport MA to SD, and adults might need the diversion of sport now and then, but the main focus should be SD.

Edit, because after further thought, I couldn't think of a single prodigy who had the maturity of a normal adult their age range.


Edited by Bushi_no_ki (06/17/05 10:38 AM)

Top
#156836 - 06/17/05 10:27 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Tell me whatever makes you feel good. The original post does not mention any qualifiers (prodigy, skill level, etc.)...just age. It is not all about kick, hit, break, dislocate. If it is, then I have certainly run across my fair share of juvenile delinquents that opened my eyes martially. That stuff is freely available on the street. I think it is miserly to begrudge the art portion to someone because they are young. Would you prefer a 40 year old teacher with 2 years of training, or the 40 year old who cut her teeth teaching for 20 years? We are all in the process of becoming.


Edited by harlan (06/17/05 10:34 AM)

Top
#156837 - 06/17/05 10:41 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: harlan]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

It is not all about kick, hit, break, dislocate. If it is, then I have certainly run across my fair share of juvenile delinquents that opened my eyes martially




The point I am making is exactly what you are saying. Its not all about the kicks ita also about the art.
The kicks come with skill, the art comes with age and maturity.

Top
#156838 - 06/17/05 10:43 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: harlan]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Harlan, there are several factors that make a teacher better or more qualified, but this thread deals mainly with the age of an instructor. I've put down age and basic rank criterion down, and nothing more. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, a prodigy should never be able to run his own dojo or teach by himself, because he will never be mature enough, I guarentee that. Just as the person who is mature for their age is for a reason, and would make a great instructor at forty compared to others provided they have sufficient rank. And there are other factors involved, they just don't apply to the age issue so much. The main question is "is there a minimum age that someone can teach at?"

Top
#156839 - 06/17/05 10:47 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
No. But feel free to limit your training.

Quote:

The main question is "is there a minimum age that someone can teach at?"



Top
#156840 - 06/17/05 10:56 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: harlan]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Lets forget about Martial Arts for a minute and talk about basketball.

Everyone familiar with the game?

If you have a chance to learn from Coach #1 or Coach #2 for approximately the same cost and time commitment, which would it be?

#1 High School All star. Has been playing since he was 6 years old. Lead his team to 4 high school state championships. Really understands the game at this particular level and is incredibly physically gifted.

#2 NBA coach. Through the course of his career he has been the high school player. And college player. And pro or semi-pro for a few years. He has coached high school and college and now pro. He understands what it is to play on every level, and how to train someone on every level.

Now if you want to learn basketball, who are you going to seek out?

No one ever says " I want to learn the basics of a sport, do it for three years, and then stop. Even if I really like it"

Young people can only teach what they know. And what they know, no matter how well, is bits and pieces. They don't even know what is next and how to incorporate what they know well into the next phase.

Here comes the argument.. Well it's not possible to know everything about all phases of your martial art.

True. But don't you owe it to yourself or your kid to find someone that knows as much as possible?

Now I know that I have opened the door for some of you smart guys to make the "depth or breadth" argument.

Is it better to know one aspect of an art deeply and completely or all aspects of the art but only at a basic level?

Deep philosophical debate could ensue. If requested I will post my idea on this topic later. For know we have enough to consider.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

Top
#156841 - 06/17/05 11:15 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: BuDoc]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
You assume. There are plenty of things that I simply enjoy learning. Once I understand 'how it works' my curiosity is satisfied, my passion sated...and I leave. I don't want to master everything I start...or even become good at it. Just understanding, and enjoying is enough. This is me. And for most of the population, I think it applies. And no matter how much you decry it...the fact is they are happy with their McDojos.

Then comes the passion that can't be sated. The fever that wakes you in the night, that is always on the mind. It is natural in that event that one will 'burn through' teachers, or styles, seeking more. "Better" more than likely being an individual that IS AHEAD of me. Since I'm 44, I guess older is expected. But that is not true in my case! I am meeting many people younger than myself, on this very forum, that I am learning from.

Again, water seeks it's own level.

Quote:

But don't you owe it to yourself or your kid to find someone that knows as much as possible?

Is it better to know one aspect of an art deeply and completely or all aspects of the art but only at a basic level?




Edited by harlan (06/17/05 11:19 AM)

Top
#156842 - 06/17/05 11:18 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: BuDoc]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
For teaching kids, I actually think a woman instructor (esp. with a degree in ECE) would be better. At the youth and adult levels however, you want older, more experienced instructors on the floor. Referring back to your Bball analogy, the JH or HS student rarely gets the option of a former NBA coach, if ever. Alot of who is teaching you has to do with the level you are at. Ie, don't expect to train with the former Pro Kickboxer unless you are almost to Pro level yourself.

Top
#156843 - 06/17/05 11:23 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: BuDoc]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

Young people can only teach what they know. And what they know, no matter how well, is bits and pieces. They don't even know what is next and how to incorporate what they know well into the next phase.





You ve put it very well.
If we incorporate the question of 'levels' in MAs and there ARE levels that you reach.
Even if you keep doing the same over and over you reach different levels.
It takes time to reach levels, you cant skip when it comes to experience.
So to teach the first level the basics, you need to know the next levels.
I am not saying that she cant teach the basic notions and movements of MAs I am saying that the way you teach those things will vary depending on what you know about advanced techniques.
There are no shortcuts in learning. Some people learn faster than others, but unfortunately we are governed by mental and physical limitations, and there is no way to pass them.

The tennis player and tennis coach example.
The professional tennis lpayer is always better than his coach, but would he be able to teach as well as his coach? no.

I am a better tennis player than my coach, and recently I tried to teach my girlfriend how to play.
Impossible, I couldnt teach her anything. Because I know how to do the movement, I dont know how to break it down.

There is a reason, that when you apply for a good, well payed position in any career, the first thing that they require is a minimum number of years you worked in that field. They require experience, something that gets less the younger you get.

Top
#156844 - 06/17/05 11:32 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Experience, coupled with the knowledge you've learned is one of the two keys. The other is maturity. Without both, you cannot be a decent teacher. I will defend the girl who teaches MA to younger students, as long as she is teaching children for now, and waits a few years to teach adults. She has the knowledge and maturity to teach young children the basics, and a fair start on the experience after three years. I would like to have seen her teach under someone older and more experienced for a while first, but she is probably doing alright.

But, it is experience and maturity which prompted my first post in this thread. Older people, with sufficient rank to run a dojo, and the younger and lower ranks to teach (and learn how to teach) under them.

Top
#156845 - 06/17/05 11:35 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well, I will make sure to ask my teacher, the next time I see him, if he has the rank and the experience to match his wrinkles.

Top
#156846 - 06/17/05 01:50 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: harlan]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Quote:

You assume. There are plenty of things that I simply enjoy learning. Once I understand 'how it works' my curiosity is satisfied, my passion sated...and I leave. I don't want to master everything I start...or even become good at it. Just understanding, and enjoying is enough. This is me. And for most of the population, I think it applies. And no matter how much you decry it...the fact is they are happy with their McDojos.


A thoughtful and well explained opinion...of a 44 year old woman.

I think that you will find that the demographic that is most in pursuit of instruction is significantly younger, and gender impaired ie. 16-24 year old males.

Based on personal and professional experience, I have found that just learning "how it works" and then quitting, doesn't happen with most people especially when enjoyment is found.

The just understanding and enjoying then leaving philosophy often leads to the not so rare situation of never really completing anything throughout ones life. Regardless of the pursuit of martial arts. And you are correct. This does, sadly, apply to a large portion of the population.

Ignorance truly is bliss. A common trait in the aforementioned demographic. Educating people and then giving them a choice, I think you will find many that choose the road less traveled.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

Top
#156847 - 06/17/05 02:09 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
For correct transmission of an art I don't think one can separate age and time training in determining who has any qualifications to teach.

I consider it reprehensible for anyone under at least 15 continious years of study teaching anyone. Why should the martial arts be second class to any other educational situation. We're many decades away from teenagers teaching first grade.

Unfortunately most martial arts consider themselves hobbies and the younger the student the less qualified the instructor should be.

I consider anyone who cannot teach every level from beginner to sho-dan from age 7 to 70 unqualified to teach and should be training. Too many times teaching at younger ages replaces training, and from what I've seen often because he program has nothing to teach them but instead chooses to take advantage of their efforts for the program's financial success.

The correct order to teach a class of 15 to 20, from ages 7 to 20 in mixture, should be at least 30 to 70 instructor years on the floor the entire time. I've been following that mixture for the past 15 years.

And in turn 100% of new student instruction, for the first 2 or 3 months, till they're ready to be assimilated into the rest of the group class is done by myself. There are too many things 7 and 8 year olds should get right the first time.

There is a vast difference between standing before a class and shouting instructions and being able to understand a students potential and limitations, be skilled as leading the ADD into instruction, and keeping track of 20 different layers of instruction at the same time.

The strongest classes incorporate all youth ages and grades together. It doesn't take age, it takes developed skill.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#156848 - 06/17/05 10:21 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Victor Smith]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I still have much to learn Mr Smith and I look forward to it,
I only hope that one day I can give back what I have received, and I want to do it as best I can.

Top
#156849 - 06/18/05 12:50 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Victor Smith]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
First, 'prodigies' have to work just as hard as people with less talent. Remember, 'the way' is about the journey not the destination.

Victor's standards are ideal, but there are three major reasons why they won't come close to being adhered to in the mainstream:

Greed, Lazyness and Impatience.

The inexperienced 'sensei' is an embodyment of all three.
Everyone wants the buck, without doing the work - right now.

Does age matter? yes, it does to me. simple mathematics:
15 years training as an adult = 15+18 = 33 years old. Reguardless of which dan level rank of the instructor or the age of the students.

Anyone younger than 30's, I respectfully walk away.

Top
#156850 - 06/18/05 02:25 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Victor Smith]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
As much as I respect Victor's view, and the points he has raised, it still begs the question "by whose/what standard"?

Victor has defined his "standard". I'd be interested to hear from other more experienced teachers what their point of view is.

Top
#156851 - 06/18/05 01:10 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Kintama,

I respect your thoughts, but I never think about the mainstream and would suggest none of us will rise by trying to be where the rest are.

All of my instructors, each and every one of them are far better martial artists than I will ever be, and not stopping either. But all I try is to make my students better than they could ever develop a student to be.

It really doesn't matter if I succeed, but to have a goal to work towards is very special.

And age isn't the issue. Pound for pound the best MA I've ever faced began training in Indonesia at age 4 and by the time he reached 15 years (age 19) would have been a terror both in knowledge and what was 'beaten' into him.

Having experienced his system I doubt there are many people that at 40 could do what he could do at 20, and that includes running a training program.

But that's ok, with each breath I take, day by day I'm still working at producing something better.

Forget the average, let them hang together. Soar in the clouds and rise.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#156852 - 06/18/05 03:28 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Victor Smith]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
BuDoc said:

Educating people and then giving them a choice, I think you will find many that choose the road less traveled.

I disagree. I 'knew' for years that my son was being force-fed crap TKD (not my choice...another topic). The thing is...I 'knew'. No one in that dojo seemed unhappy. They loved it. It was no different than a sports team.
When I would bring up my perspective I would get blank stares from parents. They did not want to see little Suzy there in order to take down a potential mugger. They saw it as an option to ballet...more empowering and less stereotypical. Realism was not what they wanted...they were buying into just another illusion. Sheep.

Top
#156853 - 06/18/05 09:33 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: harlan]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Harlan,

If they knew what was being offered and they were satisfied they aren't sheep they're just consumers.

I have no problem with the existence of any program, even ones that grate my teeth.

I only prefer they are open about what they're offering.

There are many people who find personal value in arts that I consider worthless. They enjoy training with friends, enjoy the workout, some of them abore violence and enjoy a style that is unrealistic. An interesting example are many of the Aikido groups formed from Usheiba's later teachings. That only use symbolic attacks and are more arts to study rolling. Just like the European Schools that forbid their students from buying the English translations of Usheiba's 1930's books (because he demonstrates strikes with the aikido).

As long as the art they're studying has been realisticly protrayed to the student, thats there choice.

The only problems I truly have are 1. schools that pretend they're teaching self defense and couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag (and come to think of it that might not be to easy to do anyway), or 2. schools that pretend they're teaching what they're not, such as TKD or Kempo claiming they're teaching karate.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#156854 - 06/19/05 02:24 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Victor Smith]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Victor,

I may have come across a tad goofy and harsh on my thoughts of McDojos...having been involved with one in my youth and not recognizing it and wishing, later, that someone could offer a "real" option so I could have a choice.

However, your post here rings loud and true and I echo it having the same feelings with some of the connections I have had with other styles and other so called karateka.

Even though I am not coming from a traditional karate background, I agree with you about the integrity of those who offer what they offer and the thought of just being honest about it.

Regards,

-B

Top
#156855 - 06/19/05 06:24 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: butterfly]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ah... now this brings up a very interesting dimension: what is "truth"?

Whilst Victor seems to be suggesting dishonesty or misrepresentation regarding what is being taught, how does one distinguish between those that knowingly do so, and those who don't. i.e. if the person truly believed that what they were teaching is "self-defense" and didn't know any better because of their "limited" knowledge and baggage of experience - irrespective of what age they are?

Who says your version of the "truth" is more true than someone else's?

Top
#156856 - 06/19/05 07:44 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: eyrie]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Eyrie, that is an interesting factor. Maybe she was lied to and told that she could effectively defend herself, and thus believes that what she teaches her students is effective SD. She may only be running a mcdojo because she is the product of a mcdojo.

Age wouldn't even matter in this situation, as a mcdojo student could only run a mcdojo him/herself, regardless of how old or what rank.

Top
#156857 - 06/20/05 02:57 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Maturity matters when teaching, age gives people more time to mature.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#156858 - 06/23/05 11:32 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Leo_E_49]
GungFuTy Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 88
Loc: UT
Hi all! A very interesting debate... All that I have to offer is my personal experience. I started learning Gung Fu when I was 12... As soon as I could I joined the adult class. (14 I think was the age requirement) I got a good deal of experience in those classes, especially when the instructor invited me to join the black belt class (Advanced class). I sparred and learned right along side black belts in TKD and Karate, and even some old school boxers (All now learning gung fu). We had some intense training sessions. I of course started assisting in teaching at the school, under my instructor’s super vision. When I got my Black Belt (sash or whatever you want to call it) I moved away and went to college. Just a few months ago, I started teaching gung fu to adults as a college program through the Health Education department. Aikido and Karate are taught as well. Both of these teachers have at least there second degree black and are over 40 years old. I am 23. I teach adults from 16-60. There has never been any question about my ability to teach from either the other instructors or my students. I of course am continuing to study gung fu with my instructor...and have branched out to learn Tang Soo Do and American Kempo. I hope this is useful! Love to teach...Love to learn... To me you can't have one without the other.
_________________________
Maybe thats why I took up boxing. It's my response to men in white pajamas feeling each other's chi

Top
#156859 - 06/24/05 12:51 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: GungFuTy]
1973 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 20
My short answer is yes age matters because in something like MA your life experience adds to the perspective from which you teach. I don't have a problem if someone wants to learn from the young physically accomplised practioner as long as they realize the difference between this " teacher" and the 35 or 45 + teacher who's been training for 20+ yrs or more. The new person looking for a school often thinks black belt rank and/or a bunch of trophies and/or media coverage is the ability to teach them to do the same or at the very least they want to claim association with that person implying skill by association. I've always told my students, it is not your place to judge another person, forget about what they're wearing around their waist, get out on the floor and work with them and then you'll know how good they are or what they do or don't know, that's where they'll earn your respect as a MA but you always respect them as a person and their rank as is appropriate. Of course the rub comes in at "the eye of the beholder". It's obviously harder for less trained eyes to distinguish fact from fiction and bull cookies from shinola. BUT if they are young and somewhat immature and they know it and can do it and can teach it, I'll rescind my first remark, but that's a tall order and a rare combination. Again sorry if I rambled.

Top
#156860 - 06/26/05 05:04 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Quote:

#3: junior's class (10-12) for men, must have at least black belt, must be at least 25 (unless the parent of more than one child). For women, must have brown belt, must be at least 22.


#4: children (9 and under) for men, Must have black belt, must be at least 25 (unless parent of more than one child), for women, must have studied for at least 2.5 years, must be at least 16.





Having argued similar points in the previous incarnation on this thread I will keep my objections to Bushi_no_ki's oppinion reasonably short.

This particular type of prejudice gets on my tits just because a lot of people seem to have this idea that you must be a certain age to teach. It is insane. As for maturity, age does NOT equate with maturity.

It should be about the ammount of knoweledge they posess and ability to communicate that in important for teaching, not some completely arbitrary age catagory that people have to fit in. It's like saying that "I would NEVER learn under an instructor that is less than 5'8 tall, they just aren't tall enough." It's not any physical attribute that should determine someone's teaching ability, it(to reiterate) should be the ammount of knoweledge they posess and ability to communicate that should be important.

However Bushi_no_ki, you claim that prodigies aren't mature. Sweeping generalizations like that make me feel queasy. This is probably because of your idea that it is age whichs equates to maturity, but I would ask that you explain exactally WHY that it is that prodigies aren't mature. Ever. Period. It seems to be a very strong claim you are making there.

Quote:


Re: Rock This Way [Re: JoelM]
#15757360 - 06/25/05 03:05 AM
Reply Quote

There's no such thing as too old. You're only as old as you feel.




If I had to choose between A 50 year old who had been practicing karate 5 years and a 22 year old who had been practicing for 10, I would pick the one with better teaching skills, who knew most about the art and who could explain and help the most effectivly. I wouldn't pick it on age. According to your previous criteria you would pick the 50 year old though.

Also the steriotype that women are better with kids than men is weird. You would claim that age would somehow make up for this.

I know I have brought up a Buttload of issues here, not meaning to be aimed at you specifically but your post stood out. Please try to address the issues I have raised.


Edited by Bullfrog (06/26/05 05:14 PM)

Top
#156861 - 06/27/05 12:27 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Prodigies are not mature.

I stand by that statement as I had several opportunities to be a prodigy (that were taken from me) and I am far from mature.

Prodigies aren't mature for the simple fact that someone that smart cannot have a normal childhood. Any person with an IQ over 140 is going to have at least a moderate form of depression. That is more or less a fact that hasn't been disproven, and there are mental health orgs that are trying.

Edit: I knew I had mentioned that I was a candidate for prodigyhood before. Bullfrog, next time, don't question the opinions of a prodigy's maturity level when it was given by someone who was invited to finish ALL his education at Johns Hopkins University in New York at the age of 11. Feel free to disagree if you do, just don't question it from me.


Edited by Bushi_no_ki (06/27/05 12:34 AM)

Top
#156862 - 06/27/05 12:37 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Age matters on the subject of rank and teaching to me.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#156863 - 06/27/05 01:43 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
This will be my last post on the topic as I am about to explode with frustration. Anyone who ever claims "Don't question me!" loses all my respect. That kind of thinking is like saying that "I'm disabled and I didn't have a normal, happy life so no one can". If you feel like addressing the other issues that would be cool, because I don't want to drag this thread too off topic with this discussion.

*side note, Hey sanchin. Nice to see another person who was involved in the last thread pop by. You made some really good arguments and It made me question my oppinion seriously.


Edited by Bullfrog (06/27/05 01:50 AM)

Top
#156864 - 06/27/05 02:03 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Hi bullfrog,What was that last thread called? Maybe if my IQ was higher I would know.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#156865 - 06/27/05 02:53 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
lol, I forget. Was a good one though.

Top
#156866 - 06/27/05 03:25 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Bullfrog, at a point in the near future, when I'm capable of being sincere and heartfelt about it, I owe you an apology. Now, I'm going to try and deal with the roadblock to sincerity.

Top
#156867 - 06/27/05 05:50 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

As for maturity, age does NOT equate with maturity




It does. I m sorry but some things in life are fact and not a matter of opinion. I m not saying that there are no immature adults, I am saying that there are no mature teenagers. There are teenagers that are mature for their age but certainly not mature enough or experienced enough to be able to handle a school as it should be.


Quote:

If I had to choose between A 50 year old who had been practicing karate 5 years and a 22 year old who had been practicing for 10, I would pick the one with better teaching skills, who knew most about the art and who could explain and help the most effectivly




Yes bu that is not the point is it? You are basically saying that you wouldnt learn from someone who has no experience, well duh!
The martial arts ability is a given, what I am saying is age.

Top
#156868 - 06/28/05 02:19 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Quote:

I am saying that there are no mature teenagers.




You are saying NO teenagers are mature. Not enough to teach? Then I guess I shouldn't have been running tutorials and marking at university for the last two years. I would assume you would dissagree with having an immature teacher, right? Well, I had better inform Victoria Uni of this fact so they can fire me asap. Look, "It takes 8.5 minutes for light to get from the sun to earth." Fact. "Germany is in Europe" Fact. "Teenagers are immature." Woha buddy, back the fact truck up on this one. Would you like to provide any conclusive evidence for this one? If it is as you say a fact, then there will be no single instance where what you say is wrong. What you are saying is that "teenagers are immature" has more weight that say, the theory of gravity, since one is a theory, albeit a consistant one. The other being a fact.

Onto your second point, So what you are saying if there where two identical instructors one who was 22 and one who was 55, both exactally the same skills and teaching ability at martial arts, you would pick the older one. Thats like saying there are a black and a white instructor and i would pick the black one. Or man and a woman and you would pick the man. It's crazy dude.

Top
#156869 - 06/28/05 02:27 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Bullfrog, You took that out of context.He said that there are teenagers that are mature for their age.How can a teenager that is mature for his age be as mature as a 40yr old who is mature for HIS age?He can't. I would choose the more experienced instructor and most likely find that he/she is older.I think you need a good 10yrs after blackbelt to be a head instructor,that would make someone much more than a teenager.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#156870 - 06/28/05 02:50 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Sanchin, if you assert that someone needs 10 years as a black belt before they teach then thats fine, its the way he came to the same conclusion that teenagers shouldn't teach which bugs me.

He implied that teenagers shouldn't teach because of a lack of maturity, not a lack of experience.


Edited by Bullfrog (06/28/05 03:16 AM)

Top
#156871 - 06/28/05 03:22 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Sanchin, if you assert that someone needs 10 years as a black belt before they teach then thats fine, its the way he came to the same conclusion that teenagers shouldn't teach which bugs me.

He implied that teenagers shouldn't teach because of a lack of maturity, not a lack of experience.




Ahhhhhhh.You must be a teenager. It's definitely experience to me.A teenager can't possibly have enough IMHO.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#156872 - 06/28/05 03:50 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Bullfrog, first off, I'm sorry about firing off an attack like that at you. You're not the first person I've had to apologize to like this in the last month, and I'm sure you won't be the last.

There are limits to the maturity that a teenager can have. The teenager forced to work a fulltime job while attending school full time will be more mature than other teachers, but there will be a limit to that maturity, as he/she will not be able to finish childhood. Also, that is the type of person who wouldn't have the time for MA training.

On the other hand, the teenager that gets to enjoy high school, and be a teenager, wouldn't be any where near as mature in the beginning, but would likely surpass the maturity level of the working teen after HS, and would have the time to train in MA. And, refer to my earlier post about who can handle what kind of teaching. A 19 year old girl running a day care center is quite common. So what if it's a glorified day care center that teaches something that looks martial. Different situations require different levels of maturity and experience.

Top
#156873 - 06/28/05 05:19 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
I'm guessing we will just have to stick with a difference of oppinions here, but thanks for the apology. I've stated my reasons, and I guess that will have to be where its left.

Actually, i'm not a teenager, but, like many I was one.

Top
#156874 - 06/28/05 06:14 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

You are saying NO teenagers are mature. Not enough to teach? Then I guess I shouldn't have been running tutorials and marking at university for the last two years




Were you a teenager when you were running tutorials? I would not have attended a university where the teacher was a teenager thats for damn sure! And marking is slightly different isnt it?

I said that teenagers can be mature for their age, but that does not make them mature in a wholistic sense. Experienced is linked with maturity, you gain maturity through experience, that is a very well know and argued point of phsychology which however much you try will reamin true.

Quote:

If it is as you say a fact, then there will be no single instance where what you say is wrong



OK you got me mister there may be one excption to the rule! *roll eyes*

Quote:

So what you are saying if there where two identical instructors one who was 22 and one who was 55, both exactally the same skills and teaching ability at martial arts, you would pick the older one



Why are you not trying to understand what I am saying, and why are you reading what you want? Someone who is 22 is first of all not a teenager. Second of all, obviously they are not going to have the same teaching ability THATS MY POINT FOR GODS SAKE!! I am saying that the 55 year old will, by the time he reaches 55
1.be more mature and able to handle the intricasies of teaching but only because of number 2.
2. have more experience teaching and more experience in MAs

Top
#156875 - 06/28/05 07:01 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Quote:




Onto your second point, So what you are saying if there where two identical instructors one who was 22 and one who was 55, both exactally the same skills and teaching ability at martial arts, you would pick the older one. Thats like saying there are a black and a white instructor and i would pick the black one. Or man and a woman and you would pick the man. It's crazy dude.




No it isn't. If the more experienced instructor were purple and a hermaphrodite they would still be the most experienced instructor. Of the two examples you gave, one was based on racism and the other on sexism.

I am quite happy to train under someone younger than me if they have more knowledge and experience than I do. However, given the choice of a good teacher with 10 years experience and a good teacher with 30 years experience, in my book it would make sense to choose the latter. Their colour and sex is wholly irrelevant, their experience and knowledge are not.
Sharon
_________________________
Anyone mind if I sit down?

Top
#156876 - 06/28/05 11:34 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: SANCHIN31]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Quote:

Bullfrog, You took that out of context.He said that there are teenagers that are mature for their age.How can a teenager that is mature for his age be as mature as a 40yr old who is mature for HIS age?He can't. I would choose the more experienced instructor and most likely find that he/she is older.I think you need a good 10yrs after blackbelt to be a head instructor,that would make someone much more than a teenager.




Sanchin- That is probally the best I have ever seen it put! I agree!
_________________________
--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

Top
#156877 - 06/29/05 10:40 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: still wadowoman]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Quote:

However, given the choice of a good teacher with 10 years experience and a good teacher with 30 years experience, in my book it would make sense to choose the latter




In my example both had been learning martial arts for the same time. Magr would have to choose the older one because of what he has said. All im trying to say is that age does not equal experience. If the ONLY factor is age, then magr would pick the older one. I am trying to point out a difference between age and experience.

Quote:

Were you a teenager when you were running tutorials? I would not have attended a university where the teacher was a teenager thats for damn sure! And marking is slightly different isnt it





Yes, I was. This was last 2 years, (I was 18 and 19 in those) and I took classes of 20 people for an hour. I'm sorry that you would have not attended university if your tutor was a teenager. However i'm damn good at what I do, and if you would rather have an older tutor who knew less then thats your call I guess...


Edited by Bullfrog (06/29/05 10:45 AM)

Top
#156878 - 06/29/05 02:06 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Quote:

Quote:

However, given the choice of a good teacher with 10 years experience and a good teacher with 30 years experience, in my book it would make sense to choose the latter




In my example both had been learning martial arts for the same time. Magr would have to choose the older one because of what he has said. All im trying to say is that age does not equal experience. If the ONLY factor is age, then magr would pick the older one. I am trying to point out a difference between age and experience.

You are forgetting about maturity. In many, not all cases age does correlate to maturity. An immature teacher is not one I would want.

Quote:

Were you a teenager when you were running tutorials? I would not have attended a university where the teacher was a teenager thats for damn sure! And marking is slightly different isnt it





Yes, I was. This was last 2 years, (I was 18 and 19 in those) and I took classes of 20 people for an hour. I'm sorry that you would have not attended university if your tutor was a teenager. However i'm damn good at what I do, and if you would rather have an older tutor who knew less then thats your call I guess...




You are making the assumption that an older tutor would know less than you. Making assumptions is not a good thing to do. I think this last statement of yours kind of helps with what Magr is saying. Older in many instatnces is better. Often a teenager does not have the knowledge needed to teach. Teaching is much more than just knowledge of the subject matter. You need to know how to get it across.
_________________________
--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

Top
#156879 - 06/29/05 07:10 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: MN JC]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
I never claimed to know to know more than an older tutor. (Many of the tutors at my uni are amazing, I have a whole lot to learn from them). I was simply saying that if he had the option to pick a tutor I am saddeded that had he the choice between me and one less qualified but older he would pick the older one.

Quote:

Often a teenager does not have the knowledge needed to teach. Teaching is much more than just knowledge of the subject matter. You need to know how to get it across.




If you read my previous posts this is the MAIN thing I have been stressing. Surely you can see that right?

I mean my posts must not be that convoluted that I havn't got that across are they? If so I guess I should understand the confusion. I will try say it again.

If you read my posts and understand what I have been trying to say, you will see I advocate that age does not matter, not that I am somehow better because I am younger.

Did you really think I meant to say I was better than any older tutor? I mean seriously? I'm not about to shoot myself in the foot by taking the opposide stance and start saying age DOES matter. I'm trying to claim it's experience of the subject and teaching which does, NOT age.


Edited by Bullfrog (06/29/05 07:19 PM)

Top
#156880 - 06/29/05 08:28 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: MN JC]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
There is actually quite a bit of difference between tutoring and teaching. It's the same as having a 19 year old BB who helps instruct classes, but is under supervision. The university level tutor is required to maintain a minimum GPA (usually 3.0+), is not imparting new information, is only covering information already covered in a class by a professor/teacher, and is dealing with people on a more personal level, which a teenager would have an adavantage with in this situation, being better able to communicate the information to their peers.

Top
#156881 - 06/29/05 08:44 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
I totally agree. I was just defending the claim made my magr that I shouldn't be doing it.

However you han become a highschool teacher if you have done a teaching degree. There are no age restrictions on how old you must be when you graduate.

Top
#156882 - 06/30/05 05:44 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Experience comes with age and maturity comes with age. Time IS a factor when it comes to experience, usually the older you are the more experienced your are. And the older you are the more mature you are.
There is no point in arguing would I choose someone older with less experience. My arguement is that someone older will have USUALLY more experience. And certainly in the world of MA age matters!

Quote:

I never claimed to know to know more than an older tutor. (Many of the tutors at my uni are amazing, I have a whole lot to learn from them). I was simply saying that if he had the option to pick a tutor I am saddeded that had he the choice between me and one less qualified but older he would pick the older one.




Why? You just said that they are amazing, why would I choose to do lessons with you if I had the option of someone "amazing". And you said you have a lot to learn from them, well then why would I choose you? Get my point? You are saying if this, if that.
In the real world, older people in ANY profession are more experienced and more mature and just plain better.

Top
#156883 - 06/30/05 06:05 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Quote:

I totally agree. I was just defending the claim made my magr that I shouldn't be doing it.

However you han become a highschool teacher if you have done a teaching degree. There are no age restrictions on how old you must be when you graduate.




True. But it is unlikely that someone would finish their degree as a teenager. In the UK, to teach primary (grade school) you have to do A levels which you finish at 18, then you go to uni for 3 years to get a BA, then you do a post grad course for a year or two. This means you would be at least 22 or 23 before you begin teaching. I think to teach secondary (high school) you study even longer. So technicaly, there is a minimum age.

To be head of a department (English for example) you have to be teaching for many years.
Sharon
_________________________
Anyone mind if I sit down?

Top
#156884 - 06/30/05 01:11 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
knightcommander Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/04
Posts: 150
Loc: Australia
I agree. To become a teacher, you should have experience. Which comes with age.
_________________________
Blue Belt in WTF

Top
#156885 - 06/30/05 04:19 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: knightcommander]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Amen to that!
_________________________
--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

Top
#156886 - 06/30/05 06:38 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: MN JC]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
So we've resolved that the question isn't so much "how old you have to be to start teaching", but is more "what kind of teaching can someone do at a certain age".

Top
#156887 - 07/01/05 05:10 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Quote:

Why? You just said that they are amazing, why would I choose to do lessons with you if I had the option of someone "amazing". And you said you have a lot to learn from them, well then why would I choose you? Get my point? You are saying if this, if that.
In the real world, older people in ANY profession are more experienced and more mature and just plain better.




Many of them are amazing, yes. They know things I don't, and I know things they don't, but we are all good at teaching specifically what we where hired to teach. The reason I am saddened, as I will claim, as I have before over and over, that you would pick one on them JUST because of them being older.

Again, you claim that the older that you are, the more mature you are. It has NOTHING to do with age. A 12 year old in Afganistan who has been forced into the military and forced to make heavy decisions about life and death will be a lot more mature than a 16 year old who had been chilling along in high school.

Sharon, you are right and I agree it is unlikely, but the jist of my argument is not really to debate the age of standard high school teachers. It is to claim that it is experience and maturity which are important with teaching, not age. Surely you must agree with that right? I'll admit that often the two go hand in hand but that does not make them the same thing, right?

Does everyone who's posting on this topic agree with magr's claim that

Quote:

In the real world, older people in ANY profession are more experienced and more mature and just plain better.




REALLY curious about the answer to that one.


Edited by Bullfrog (07/01/05 05:15 AM)

Top
#156888 - 07/01/05 05:33 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Bullfrog,

I agree that age is not the same thing as experience. A 25 year old with 8 years MA training will have more experience than a 50 year old who has had two lessons. I can see what you are getting at.

However, most usually the older instructor would be the most experienced and that would be why I would pick him.
Sharon
_________________________
Anyone mind if I sit down?

Top
#156889 - 07/01/05 07:44 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear MA Gr:

If you are viewing MA as nothing more than Phys Ed than it won't matter how old the person doing the instructing or coaching is. If you want to talk about "teaching" you step into a completely different area.

Westerners have typically viewed teaching as a kind of second-class career whose routes have historically started at mothers' knee with the family Bible or with the loccal old-maid who needed income. I remember kids at the University where I attended saying that if they couldn't get a "real" job they could "always teach". In Asian cultures the position of teacher carries considerable value both for the person as an individual and in the community. Quite recently I was in Korea for an intensive and the deportment of my training partners changed noticeably when they learned that I had a Masters'. Certainly here in the States that would probably mean little, but there is was regarded as VERY meaningful.

I share all of this because for many of we traditionalist a "teacher" is not just a coach or an instructor. A teacher is a person who is capable of mentoring and demonstrating by their deportment how the values of the kwan or art are expressed in the community experience and not just in the dochang. Until most people are well into their 30-s there is not a whole lot to recommend them as teachers regarding modeling how the principles of the art they purport to teach can be applied in problem-solving of daily life. A young instructor who is very "brave" on the school floor sparring may quake at the very thought of standing up for a principle that is right, but not popular with his friends. A person who is very careful about details of his hyung may be very sloppy and neglectful when he is at work. How can these people truely be called "teachers"? Age does not NEED to be a factor, but all too often it is. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Top
#156890 - 07/01/05 08:13 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: glad2bhere]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Very well put.
I agree with everything you just said, and if I would have thought of making my point like that it would have saved me a lot of unnecessary posts.


I want to say, however, that a coach is also a teacher. Invariably my coaches that I have been with have had amazing character building personalities, and I am sure that football coaches for example, are like second fathers to the players.
I would put coaches and teachers together.
Instructors who go from gym to gym teaching some watered down tae bo to the beat of techno are obviously not included!

Top
#156891 - 07/01/05 03:02 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
After reading the one thread in the MA talk forum, I've changed my position slightly. Yes, age matters. A 19 year old just does not have the emotional maturity to handle running a business, regardless of whether it's not for profit or the source of income for the teacher. In the 1800s that might have been a different story, but estimates by physicians and such is that within 2-3 generations, American children will be going through the longest period of puberty possible, not even showing full physical maturity until well into their twenties. I could go into all the advantages and disadvantages of this, but the main point is that teenagers are just that, no matter what the law says. And I'm inclined to agree that in many ways, I'm still a "teenager" and am nowhere near mature enough to run my own business.

Top
#156892 - 07/02/05 11:45 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
I think we are managing to wade through the semantics and get to at least the same idea here wadowoman. Thanks for the insightful comments .

Bushi_no_ki, We are disputing age for teaching here, not running a buisness, but fair enough claim, as I guess most MA instructors will be doing it as their buisness. Magr, I think you will have a hard time sticking by your claim that "In the real world, older people in ANY profession are more experienced and more mature and just plain better." Would you like to explain this one?

What about rugby for example, does this also apply here? Or is rugby not a profession and tennis is?


Edited by Bullfrog (07/03/05 01:37 AM)

Top
#156893 - 07/03/05 06:30 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

"In the real world, older people in ANY profession are more experienced and more mature and just plain better." Would you like to explain this one?

What about rugby for example, does this also apply here? Or is rugby not a profession and tennis is?




I have a very easy time. Name me the best trainers, instructors, teachers, mentors, gurus etc, and I will be very surprised to find any 20 yearolds amongst them.
Do you know many 25 yearold rugby coaches??

Top
#156894 - 07/03/05 09:44 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I mentioned similar in another thread (hopes hes not getting senile and repeating himself ), that the age of a teacher as it relates in effectiveness to the student is based on the seriousness/importance of the subject.

I wouldn't pay (in time or money) for...
a pre-teen to teach parenting classes.
or a teen to give me medical advice or teach me CPR.
or a 20-something teaching me how to build a house.

but I wouldn't have a problem with paying for...
a pre-teen to teach me how to play GameCube.
a teenager teaching me how to ride a motocycle.
a 20-something teaching me a foreign language.

Top
#156895 - 07/03/05 02:19 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Kintama]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
You would let a 20 year old tell you what medicine to take but not how to build your house? Wow. Interesting priorities.

Top
#156896 - 07/03/05 02:26 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

You would let a 20 year old tell you what medicine to take but not how to build your house? Wow. Interesting priorities.




That's not what I read.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#156897 - 07/03/05 02:27 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Kintama]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Quote:

I mentioned similar in another thread (hopes hes not getting senile and repeating himself ), that the age of a teacher as it relates in effectiveness to the student is based on the seriousness/importance of the subject.

I wouldn't pay (in time or money) for...
a pre-teen to teach parenting classes.
or a teen to give me medical advice or teach me CPR.
or a 20-something teaching me how to build a house.

but I wouldn't have a problem with paying for...
a pre-teen to teach me how to play GameCube.
a teenager teaching me how to ride a motocycle.
a 20-something teaching me a foreign language.





Seriousness/importance is surely a subjective issue.
What you consider important, another may not.
You would allow a teenager to teach you to control a 1/4 ton lump of metal that travels at speeds in excess of 150 mph but not how to throw a decent punch?

As to the question of maturity and it's relationship to teaching, I think that the mistake people are making here is
they are talking about general maturity as opposed to maturity within the confines of the subject taught.
As Bushi no ki says, prodigies are generally immature(I don't know this for sure I'm taking his word on it) but only outside of the field of their given talent(s).
Having composed music from about the age of 6, Mozart( within the field of music) at age 18 would have had the maturity of someone much, much older.

I would imagine that everyone here who teaches has no problem with teaching potentially lethal techniques to an 18 yr old. Surely they recognise that in doing so they rely on
that students maturity to not go using said techniques in inappropriate circumstances. So what most on here are saying is that yes at 18 they are mature enough to learn this stuff
but not mature enough to pass it on. It seems to me there is a lack of consistency in this. (yes you are, no you're not) No wonder most teenagers are in a state of confusion!

When people ask questions on this forum every body weighs in with an answer. Some of the answers and advice are good, some are bad. Plenty of those answers come from young adults. The message being sent to them is, don't waste your time, you're too young and I'm not going to listen to you anyway!

I'm sorry if this offends anyone but this attitude displays
the utmost arrogance and closed mindedness. Two things I feel have no place in MA!

We are all teachers. Young and old alike.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

Top
#156898 - 07/03/05 02:45 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: McSensei]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Thank you McSensei. I was about to give up considering that I was in a minority in that view. You put it much more eloquently than I have been able to so far.

edit :
Quote:

That's not what I read.




What did you read?


Edited by Bullfrog (07/03/05 03:02 PM)

Top
#156899 - 07/03/05 04:41 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I didn't see where he said he would let a 20yr old prescribe him meds.
The question was "Does age matter?" in relation to teaching martial arts.The answer is clearly yes because of the time needed to have experience.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#156900 - 07/03/05 05:08 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: McSensei]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Tell me where I mentioned that everyone HAS to feel the same way as I do, and then you'll have an argument.

I'm not going to stop anyone bent on learning SD from a 5th dan 19 year-old...any more than you'd be able to stop me from going dirt bike riding with my teenage nephew who teaches me stuff to improve my time. (good upper body workout by the way) yes, I pay him for teaching me...and he works for it, because I suck. lol

Top
#156901 - 07/03/05 07:55 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: McSensei]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

Having composed music from about the age of 6, Mozart( within the field of music) at age 18 would have had the maturity of someone much, much older




How does that work?
I helped train a 16yearold who broke a world record in swimming, how does tht make her mature? She was just really good. Like its been said before, when it comes to teaching, talent comes second to maturity. And maturity is not developed by being really good its developed through experience, and the biggest factor in experience is time!

Quote:

So what most on here are saying is that yes at 18 they are mature enough to learn this stuff
but not mature enough to pass it on.



Yes, but not because of irresponsibility but because of quality of teaching. We are not debating whether the 19 yearold is responsible enough, we are debating wether a 19 yearold would be a good teacher. Try and read the responses and the questions before you answer.

Quote:

When people ask questions on this forum every body weighs in with an answer. Some of the answers and advice are good, some are bad. Plenty of those answers come from young adults.



Yes, but
1. We are not pretending to give anything more than advice
2. You are not paying for that advice
3. We dont claim to be qualified teachers.
4. People ask for our opinion and we ask for other people's, its called a forum mate!

Quote:

this attitude displays
the utmost arrogance and closed mindedness.



Why? because I am not willing to change my opinion, from your oh so convincing arguement, arent you abit arrogant thinking that you are right and we are wrong?

This has nothing to do with arrogance. Its some people's opinion that they would not enrole in a school being taught by a teenager. It should not be too hard to understand why. Someone older and more experienced would be a better teacher.

Top
#156902 - 07/03/05 08:00 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
MAGr,

Amen, brother..You got it right!

And I thought we went through this whole thing a couple of times already. Sheesh! But gotta agree with our Greek-English friend here.

-B

Top
#156903 - 07/03/05 09:35 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
MaGr,
The dictionary definition of maturity is full development.
By age 18 Mozart was fully developed, musically and I was refering to points made by BnK about prodigies.
As to maturity being developed by experience and therefore time, I completely agree. Where we disagree is "what time" (of life).
Points numbered 1.2.3.4. have some merit but surely advising is a form of teaching.
Lastly, I do think I'm right yes, but I do at least consider the arguments against me and concede if I'm proved wrong.
Also, I agree people can make their own decisions about where, when and under whom they train. I'm fully aware that it is not usually the case that someone young will be a good teacher. However, to rule out completely the possibility that somewhere, someone under 20 could teach them something in MA is closedminded and arrogant.

At least we know where we all stand on this now.
I'm with mothercare,
You're with cardigans 'r' us
It's a forum, right?
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

Top
#156904 - 07/03/05 10:19 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Example for you magr? I assume that people she was competing against where older... So unless there is a flaw in your reasoning or their competition, that would make her... better than the others? Even though they are older.

http://www.agepositive.gov.uk/newsdetail.cfm?sectionID=44&newsid=439

You do have the harder position to defend however. You are claiming that ALL younger people in one sector are worse than their older counterparts, all I have to do is provide one counterexample to show that out of two people in the same profession, someone younger can do better.

Top
#156905 - 07/03/05 11:20 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Bullfrog, I don't think we could ever convince you,but you will change your mind when you get older.Just because someone is better means they would be a good teacher? I don't think so.It takes much more than physical skill.
I'll bet her teachers weren't teenagers.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#156906 - 07/03/05 11:26 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: McSensei]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Quote by Mcsensei
"However, to rule out completely the possibility that somewhere, someone under 20 could teach them something in MA is closedminded and arrogant."

Yes I agree you can learn something from a 20 yr old, this is not some new revelation. I want the best instructor possible and their not 19 yr olds. Look at all major sports NFL, NHL, NBA, and MLB. Not one of these teams have a 19 yr old as a coach. Why because these people spend millions of dollars for the best coach/teacher possible and guess what their not 19. You will never ever see a 19 yr old coach one of these teams.

The best doctor's, lawyer's, scientists, ect are not 19 yr olds. So yes go teach somebody something. But for me I want the best just like major league sports do I don't want some t-ball coach when I can have the best.

Kevin

Top
#156907 - 07/03/05 11:53 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I hear what you are saying, but your example is weak.
I've added my comments to reflect reality.

Busting ageist myths

"Too old for a job in IT" - yes, it's called discrimination but it happens. It's unprovable since you don't know the 'real' reason people don't give 50+ the job. They say sorry, you are 'overqualified'. but they could be thinking: 'too old'. I've never ever worked with a near retirement age software engineer or IT person. Engineers usually change careers to teaching by their 50's and retire doing that or teach after retiring.

"Too old to change direction" - This I do agree with...whether or not you are able to support yourself or retire in this 'new direction' is another question.

"Too young to be a manager" - yes, you CAN be too young to be a manager of a job that you get paid for...unless it's managing a lemonade stand in front of your house.
again, the age question goes with the seriousness of the subject.
Who do you know that will allow a teenager to manage their retirement account?

Age does matter. It's reality.

[edit]I also don't like age discrimination, but the website you gave seems to tell people what they want to hear or what is a possible future.

Top
#156908 - 07/04/05 04:47 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Kintama]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Kintama, correct me if i'm wrong, but in fact you completly dissagree with Magr, who claims that:

Magr:
Quote:

"In the real world, older people in ANY profession are more experienced and more mature and just plain better."




Kintama :

Quote:

I've added my comments to reflect reality.... They say sorry, you are 'overqualified'. but they could be thinking: 'too old'. I've never ever worked with a near retirement age software engineer or IT person. Engineers usually change careers to teaching by their 50's and retire doing that or teach after retiring.




So you claim that age does matter in a profession... too old is bad, so is too young. Magr claims that older is just better.

Correct?

The reason I need to seperate the two is I cannot debate two people on two different things at the same time.

Sanchin: Saying that you will know better when your older is really condesending... Its like saying "Your too immature/dumb/uninsightful to understand what I am saying but later on you will." Why will I later? What new revelations will happen in psychology that will sway me. I am not usually swayed by moods, only good arguments.


Edited by Bullfrog (07/04/05 05:40 AM)

Top
#156909 - 07/04/05 12:37 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: SANCHIN31]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"You will change your mind when you get older"

My parents still tell me this now and I'm 38!
I don't agree, even though I use the same phrase to my children.
What we should say is "probably".
Age is relative anyway.
The last thing I wanted was to turn this into a black and white argument. There are always grey areas.
What I have been trying to argue is that although in most cases a young teacher might not be as good as an older one, it is not absolute. Even Victor Smith came up with an exception.
Another question is availability. If your choice was between
a 20yr old that taught an honest, but only fair standard of MA or a 30 something that taught a poor standard, where would you go?
You could say you'd go to neither. Then you would be missing out altogether.
I would at least give the younger guy a chance.

Pathfinder7195

You have millions to spend on MA.
Lucky you.
The very top instructors are not readily available to the masses.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

Top
#156910 - 07/04/05 12:49 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Sanchin: Saying that you will know better when your older is really condesending... Its like saying "Your too immature/dumb/uninsightful to understand what I am saying but later on you will." Why will I later? What new revelations will happen in psychology that will sway me. I am not usually swayed by moods, only good arguments.




You are right,sorry.I should have put a probably in there.I was basing that on how I felt when I was 17-20 compared to my feelings on it now.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#156911 - 07/04/05 02:37 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

So you claim that age does matter in a profession... too old is bad, so is too young. Magr claims that older is just better.



Unfortunately, age does matter in some professions...like I said, it may be simple age discrimination. just because it's not right, doesn't mean you can pretend it isn't there.

I agree with Mag in some cases, but not as a blanket generalization... knowing his/her insight from previous posts, I'd say it was not intended that way (although I admit, it does sound like it). I'll give examples of professions that are suppossedly 'equal opportunity employment':

Video game designer - hire the 20-something right out of college who also has experience aceing 'Doom 3', or the 50-something who is unbeatable in 'pong'?

Tax accountant/service rep. - hire a 20's someone out of college that may have trouble balancing their own checkbook, or a 50's someone that may have already financed his own kids thru college? which booth would you go to at H&R block? The guy with a pierced chin, or the grey hair guy?

either one of those jobs should be open to any age group if they have the qualifications.

There is a credability level of life experience that is inherent in different jobs, but not specifically listed in the requirements. for those types of jobs, age is a reality, whether it's P.C. to say so or not. now, whether or not this is discriminating is the question of debate on a case-by-case basis. but in the end of the decision chain, it is the consumer who chooses who they do business with.
To learn snowboarding, I'd choose the 20 year old instructor.
In MA, it is my choice to train with an instructor that has life experience to go with the level of technical skill I'd expect to learn from. someone may choose differently, it's not my place to tell consumers how to choose, the only valid thing would be to point out probable scams and let them decide. ...live and let learn.

Top
#156912 - 07/04/05 05:22 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Kintama]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
It was a gross generalisation. For example in the stock market, the traders are never more than 30 years old. The people who make the stock models are mostly around the age of 25. But....how old do you think the people who trained them are? Or how old do you think the boss is? Why is it that heads of department and more specifically of companies are older?
Of course it was a generalisation, and there are exceptions. But experience cannot be replaced by talent. I was competing for my current job with a top class graduate from cambridge, you know why I got the job? because I had 3 years experience. Notice in the above sentence the 3 years bit. You cannot, no matter how good you are know more than I do if you just came out of college...not because I am a genius, but because I have experience.

Top
#156913 - 07/04/05 06:48 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: harlan]
Ethanael Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 92
To a certain point, maturity comes with age. If a three year old could be a Black Belt with a GPA of 4.0 and a wife and kids, as well as the maturity to handle it all, that'd be highly impressive. But if a forty year old had a Black Belt with a GPA of 4.0 and a wife and kids, it wouldn't be -as- impressive.

Age matters, but so does maturity and the overall willingness to improve.
_________________________
Supporting Sanchin31 as he says "Nuts to cancer"

Top
#156914 - 07/04/05 07:20 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Ethanael]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
So whats your point. If I had wheels I would be a trolley, but I dont, and I am not.

Maturity comes with age, because it comes with experience and experience takes time. Why? because there are only 24 hours in a day.

Top
#156915 - 07/04/05 08:09 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Ethanael Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 92
But if you aren't mature enough to put as much as you can into each training session, time is nothing. It'd be better to spend an hour of intense, rigorous, focused training, than five hours of laid back, light training...That's the point I was trying to make, and I hope I didn't offend you or come off in the wrong way.


Edited by Ethanael (07/04/05 08:10 PM)
_________________________
Supporting Sanchin31 as he says "Nuts to cancer"

Top
#156916 - 07/04/05 10:16 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Maturity comes with age, because it comes with experience and experience takes time. Why? because there are only 24 hours in a day.




Does it? Time and experience are relative concepts. War, personal violence and abandonment have a strange way of folding time and enlarging worldly experience in an instant.

Define maturity. Physical? Emotional? Mental? All of the above? Maturity does not come with age. I know a 40 year old mentally challenged person with the maturity level of an 8 year old. What level of maturity would you consider to be appropriate?

My boys (6 and 8) are extremely mature for their age, and my 6yo has no qualms about "teaching" the other (bigger) kids in the class how to do a technique properly. Well, it's actually more like correcting them or telling them how to do it. The problem is, he's bloody good when it comes to knowing the minute technical detail - really simple things like which hand and which foot forward.

Oh, and I disagree entirely with what you said.

Top
#156917 - 07/05/05 02:35 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
symbiot Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 18
Loc: Australia
martial arts is not a team sport.
experience makes the fighter,
training in schools or dojos is learning other peoples experience.
only in aspect refering to experience.
as a white belt begginer in karate i had more experience in grappling than a 50th dan karate master.
learning depends mostly on ones perception of the facts and how well the facts are understood. eg i learned how to bite as a fighter from childrens dirty tactics just by seeing them do it to another person and observing the reaction.
biting is a good way to escape a lot of techniques
practice makes the difference

use what you learn from whoever you learn it from, people are like the intenet you only get out what you put in, not what someone puts in.



Edited by symbiot (07/05/05 02:43 AM)

Top
#156918 - 07/05/05 05:42 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: symbiot]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Biting is not a good idea. Think of all the potential blood borne diseases that you could come into contact with. Hepatitis C is a nice one to catch - NOT, unless of course you don't mind progressive liver dysfunction and failure.

I suggest you learn how to fight properly instead of posting such rubbish.

Top
#156919 - 07/05/05 06:44 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: eyrie]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

Maturity does not come with age. I know a 40 year old mentally challenged person with the maturity level of an 8 year old. What level of maturity would you consider to be appropriate?



I didnt say maturity comes with age, I said maturity comes with experience. Yes, there are extreme circumstances like war, like losing both your parents and having to take care of your younger siblings, that fold time (as you put so eloquently). But I am not discussing those cases. I am discussing the average joe.
Also its not relevant to discuss feudal Japan and China and how old their teachers were because, firstly they were not sheltered from hardships as we are today and (as published by an american institute) the puberty period of a teenager is getting longer and longer, and all the things that the previous statement imply are the exact opposite of the experiences of 20 year old adults in feudal times.

Quote:

The problem is, he's bloody good when it comes to knowing the minute technical detail - really simple things like which hand and which foot forward



I do not doubt your kids maturity FOR THEIR AGE...but which hand and foot goes forward is hardly 'minute detail'. Also I will reserve the right not discuss your kids due to undeniable mother's bias

Like I said before teaching an art is not only about talent or knowing the technique. Its about being able to communicate and control and know little details about how people react, it takes time to develop that understanding.

Anyway, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Top
#156920 - 07/05/05 07:55 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm confused. Look at your original post and tell me what you wrote there...did I read that wrong, or did you write that wrong?

This I agree with:
Quote:


Like I said before teaching an art is not only about talent or knowing the technique. Its about being able to communicate and control and know little details about how people react, it takes time to develop that understanding.




I would say that generally applies to teaching, don't you? In any case, such skills can be learnt or developed (at any age).

I'd say that there's only a small percentage of teachers out there who truly have this ability. Is this a case of the rest "faking it till they make it"...??? Or maybe they're in the process of doing and growing???

At what point does one start? When is one truly ever "ready" to teach? 53 like Funakoshi? Or 21 like Kano?

Top
#156921 - 07/07/05 08:06 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: eyrie]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I like the points that kintama brought up. A teenager or twenty something in this day and age will be better at somethings (tech related) because we grew up in the era of IBM, Microsoft, Nintendo, and Playstation. But the running of a dojo, imparting the moral values, requires someone with the experience and maturity of an older person. The 16 year old black belt can teach the technical aspects of a style to someone, but they need the moral guidance of someone who's been there.

Top
#156922 - 07/07/05 08:54 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
And again I disagree. Define maturity. Maturity has nothing to do with elapsed years. The mutifaceted dimensions of maturity include the obvious like physical and mental, as well as the not so obvious like emotional and spiritual.

I can show you a 50 year old with the emotional maturity of a 6 year old. I can show you a 10 year old with the spiritual maturity of an 80 year old ascetic. I can show you a 20 year old with the mental maturity of a 40 year old.

Maturity has nothing to do with age.

Top
#156923 - 07/07/05 09:28 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: eyrie]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
To further the thought, experience does not equal years either. years are only inferred with experience.

Here is a tough one, which has more experience with languages?
a 40-year-old who has lived at home with parents, never married, no kids, no responsibility, never left a 100 mile radius from home. has studied languages in his basement for the past 20 years.
OR
A multi-lingual 25 year old who grew up in the US but has graduated from college in Zurich and now lives and is married in Beijing?

Top
#156924 - 07/07/05 10:06 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Kintama]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ditto! Here's another example. I have been cooking for nearly 30 years (started cooking at 10). No formal qualifications whatsoever, learnt everything I know from mum in the kitchen, and thru personal experimentation and feel. Can cook a fairly decent meal. Most people I've cooked for and casually entertained, have commented that I should open a restaurant (illogical thinking that cooking ability somehow equates to running a restaurant - ya starting to see the parallels????).

By comparison, a 23 yo newly qualified chef who's been through the 3-4 year apprenticeship (say total 6 years training), who is just as capable, and could probably cook a really fancy meal (10/10 for presentation, taste, etc.), and even have the smarts to run his own restaurant.

Who has more experience? Young upcoming chef or me? Who's better? How do you (or someone else) know who's better? Who's right as to who's better?

On paper, I couldn't hope to get a job as short order cook in a gas station diner, much less a sous chef position in a fancy hotel. But our young 23 year old qualified chef has the "experience" to go places.

Top
#156925 - 07/15/05 12:48 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Kintama]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Magr:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In the real world, older people in ANY profession are more experienced and more mature and just plain better."

Does this apply to exotic dancers, too?

Hey, there's GOT to be a couple 19 year olds out there who can teach MA, but it should be a rarity. Once I was at a tournament where the CENTER judge for kata competition was a young man about 19, dressed in blue jeans and a t-shirt. Had I been a contestant, I would have announced my name and style, then looked at him and said "Who the *%$^ are you??"
_________________________

Top
#156926 - 07/15/05 10:54 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Ironfoot]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I'll address this question once again.

Does age matter when finding a martial arts instructor?

Look at the posts here from older experienced martial artist vs. the ones from young up and comers. See the difference? I do. I'd want the most experienced person or the job and most likely he/she would be of some age.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#156927 - 07/16/05 12:01 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I will qualify this much. If I had the choice between a 28 year old who's been studying for 13 years, or the 50 year old who's been studying for eight years, I would pick the 28 year old, simply because he does have more experience and would have a better technical understanding of the style he teaches. That is ignoring other variables such as whether the same style is being taught, or how good of an instructor each had, but that's just adding unnecessary variables to the question at hand.

Top
#156928 - 07/16/05 02:43 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: SANCHIN31]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
My answer and question to you is:
Does it matter to YOU?

If you don't mind, then it don't matter.

Top
#156929 - 07/16/05 01:16 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: eyrie]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Age matters since this thread is 10 pages long now...I am older since I read it...and now the cricks in my neck are hurting. No one has changed their position on this issue...you mods can lock it up.

Maybe we can keep this as a time capsule and let younger folk read it in 10 years and re-opent it then...see if anyone's changed their minds in that time.

-B

-B

Top
#156930 - 07/18/05 12:37 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: butterfly]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
I would be pretty suprised if anyone changes there mind on this. I say it does matter, there may be some exceptions but in my years I have found very very few younguns who I would spend my time learning from.

But, then I am old.
_________________________
--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

Top
#156931 - 07/21/05 03:58 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Quote:

If I had the choice between a 28 year old who's been studying for 13 years, or the 50 year old who's been studying for eight years, I would pick the 28 year old...




Well, sure. But a 28-year-old is a full adult. What if he or she were say 21 with 13 years of MA experience? You know, LIFE experience counts for something, too.
_________________________

Top
#156932 - 07/22/05 08:34 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Ironfoot]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Well Ironfoot, I'm 25 and still quite immature, I don't think I want to study under someone (as a head instructor) who just came of drinking age in the US.

Top
#156933 - 07/22/05 05:17 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
This old chestnut still going?
With regard to the matter of the 28 yr old studying for 13 years and the older guy of 50 who studied for 8 years. Surely you would appraise them on their ability to teach. Not just jump straight for the guy who's been training longer. Not all people learn at the same rate.
Also the 8 yrs might have been training one to one with Victor Smith, whereas the 13 yrs might have been training once a week with me.
This falls in line with what I've said all along. Take the blinkers off and keep an open mind. Don't dismiss people just because they are young/old, tall/short, fat/thin etc.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

Top
#156934 - 07/24/05 03:44 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: McSensei]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Yes Mcsensei, but one of the points that came up in this conversation is that the two instructor ideals being compared had equal caliber training for the time they put in. I'm not saying that someone who is so much older is necessarily better, just that under the age of 25 is still immature, no matter what the law says.

Top
#156935 - 07/29/05 02:38 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Didn't want to touch this thread again, maybe it should be locked up, but when ya say

Quote:

just that [someone] under the age of 25 is still immature, no matter what the law says.




You do a disservice to the 3 pages of this thread devoted to arguing that particular question about maturity. It seems odd to disregard them in one simply swoop of a sentance. But hey, thats just my 2c.

Top
#156936 - 07/30/05 12:18 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bullfrog]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Bullfrog, that's just ignoring the point about being a head instructor. A 19yo can most certainly be an assistant instructor, I just want someone with a little maturity in charge of the entire dojo. There are legal reasons for this as well as quality reasons (eg, a 19 yo, still being a "kid" would get a lot of "pity points" with a jury if something happened and I needed to go to court to recoup losses. I'm not saying I'm a sue happy person, but I wouldn't hesitate in the case of gross negligence on the part of the instructor if I got hurt because of it). Now, I think you're right about both sides having their say in this matter, and it's going nowhere fast. The cases have been more than sufficiently made, so anyone can read this and make up their own minds.

Top
#156937 - 08/01/05 01:05 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: MAGr]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Sometimes I wonder if I would have more credibility around here if I'd never mentioned my age. I know I lost some.

Frankly, it's shortsighted to regard us younguns as universally immature. However, maturity is only one face on the larger issue of teaching ability. My personal opinion is that younger people cannot teach as well as the older people can (for a few reasons, but it's not like this thread is long enough or anything ).

My only request is that you all take what I say at face value, and stereotypical averages be damned (literally, not just frivolent language).
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

Top
#156938 - 08/01/05 01:18 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Foolsgold]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Foolsgold, I am only 25, and disregarding my rank, I am by no means mature enough to run my own dojo and teach others. I need at least another three years of life to reach that point.

Top
#156939 - 08/01/05 01:55 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
I agree completely, please don't misunderstand. I don't think younger people should teach for a number of reasons. That said, I don't think they should be disregarded in discussion either.


Edited by Foolsgold (08/01/05 01:57 AM)
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

Top
#156940 - 08/22/05 09:22 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Shotokan_Nut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 43
Loc: Liverpool, England
I think that age matters quite a bit. Think of it like this, your instructor (sensei, sifu etc) stops advancing in dan grades to concentrate on teaching. You become a higher dan grade than your instructor. Now would you still expect him to guide you in your training since he has seen more of life? How would you feel if he asked you to teach him instead, would you feel ok with that situation or would you find it uncomfortable because the roles were reversed?
_________________________
"There Are Many Imitations, But Only One Shotokan" Gichin Funakoshi

Top
#156941 - 08/23/05 10:05 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Foolsgold]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Foolsgold, I do agree that younger people shouldn't be disregarded in discussions either. They also shouldn't be disregarded as assistants to a head instructor.

Everyone else, CAN WE PLEASE LET THIS THREAD DIE THE NATURAL DEATH OF OLD AGE THAT IT'S LONG OVERDUE FOR!!!

Top
#156942 - 08/23/05 10:15 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
happy (belated) 2 month anniversary, thread!

Top
#156943 - 08/24/05 04:58 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Kintama]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Did anybody see a white rabbit with a drum go by?

Kevin

Top
#428609 - 07/25/10 11:34 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: pathfinder7195]
Reece Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 4
I realise that this thread is very, very old however I felt complied to respond to it. I read a lot of MA forums, but participate in a select few - but this discussion is one that can generally be found on most MA forums.

This is my first post on this forum, and as such to provide light on the direction that I am coming from I will provide a brief background. I started my own dojo at the age of 18 at the recommendation of my Sensei . I moved away from my current dojo, and the style was not taught at my new location. I did not want to stop training in the style, and thus opened my own dojo.

Pre-apology for the length of the post, and sorry for curdling the blood in posting in this thread!

Life experience is something which has been heavily discussed. However, I get the feeling that ‘life experience’ equates to ‘time you have been alive’ in this discussion – this is where I disagree. Consider a 21 year old who started working at 14, enlisted in the Military Services at 17 whilst completing a university degree at the same time and has dealt with managing people, dangerous goods (i.e. weapons), responsibility, dealing and managing emotional states of peers, subordinates and superiors and has seen live-action with the grief of death, over a 35 year old who has no partner/children, is reclusive and has a job behind a desk – but both teach martial arts with equal rank, style and time in the MA. I realise the case of the younger said person is rare – but the discussion isn’t on whether it is rare, the discussion is ‘Does age matter’. My point simply, is assessing the person on their display of skill; ability in both the martial art and their teaching ability should be the most prevalent factor in making a decision whether or whether not to accept this person as your instructor.

Teaching is not directly related to how long they have been doing that said martial arts, or how long they have been teaching – it is related to the individual. As I said, I am speaking from a personal point of view, being an instructor in my early 20s who has my own dedicated martial arts centre, and runs it as a non-profit business, successfully – and one who is looked negatively on because of my age, where others are not – and don’t take this as complaining, it’s just a hurdle, which I deal with.

On the other side of the coin, I do believe there is an age requirement for a teacher (meaning a primary teacher, not assistant instructor). But that age is in comparison to the individual student. The fact is you won’t really see an under 18 year old being the Head Instructor/Sole instructor of a Dojo as not many facilities, part-time or dedicated would permit them to teach there. I would, however pick the teacher; despite how young they were if they could successfully teach me what their MA was about.

I hope I haven’t bored you overly, and that my post makes sense.

Yours in Budo,
RJ.


Edited by Reece (07/25/10 11:36 PM)
_________________________
The traditional Karate guy, from an nontraditional background

Top
#428618 - 07/26/10 10:35 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Reece]
ninpopo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/10
Posts: 72
Loc: Africa *drums starts playing i...
Reece i agree fully with what you say, I see a very fine example with my friends who only finshed their studies at 24, and still live with their parents, in comparrison to people who didnt have the oppurtunity and had to start catering for themselves at the age of 18 already.

Also your statement also shows light to a motto I strongly believe it "youre never too old to learn" doesnt matter who or what the source, arrogance shouldnt be a reason for not bettering yourself as a person and/or skill
_________________________
Be the change you wish to see in the world

Top
#428620 - 07/26/10 11:43 AM Re: Does age matter [Re: Reece]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Reese

I both agree and disagree.....no blood "curdling" just a bit of respectful disagreement smile

1st--The person you are talking about is an exception......and while there are exceptions to rules, the sad truth is that people generally consider themselves to be exceptions to rules all the time.....weither its warrented, defensable, or not.

2nd if the person you mention started working at 14. Joined the military at 17 and was working on a degree at the same time----then I have to ask how much time they have actually spent on their martial art training.

It is one the reasons it often takes quite a bit of time to gain rank....between a full time job, family responsibilties, grad school, friends, dating, etc there are only so many hours per week to train.......harsh but those are the facts on the ground in most cases.

Fully agree that teaching skills should be the main focus.....and being a good teacher is only partially a function of age.......but there again age is IMO most surely a factor...perhaps an important one.

Consider (just off the top of my head) a young, athletic, highly fit teacher----is he really going be able to relate to the aches and pains and limitations of a middle age student? Maybe, maybe not.....IMO it depends on the person.

On the practical side of teaching pretty much anything age becomes a factor rather quickly. Hiring a teacher with say 10 years of objective experience teaching a given subject is almost always more expensive than a person just out of school....regardless of whatever subjective their level of preformence might be.

Perhaps it is not "fair" in the objective sense......but that is way of things.

Of course just looking at time in grade or years teaching is any locked in promise either.



Edited by cxt (07/26/10 03:18 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#428653 - 07/27/10 12:57 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: cxt]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
The above should read:

"Of course looking at time in grade or years teaching is no locked in promise of good teaching either."

(beats head against desk)


Edited by cxt (07/27/10 12:59 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#428694 - 07/28/10 06:43 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: cxt]
Reece Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 4
In response to CXT's post, but for general discussion to:

Whilst I realise these people may be an exception to the rule, I wasn’t trying to get into that discussion. I was trying to demonstrate to those who have the blanket approach of “they’re too young” or “they don’t have enough life experience” to take into account that many different people, come from many different backgrounds. Age should not generally be a primary consideration in a teacher (within consideration of course, i.e. 13yrs is a different store)

The situation that I provided with that person’s lifestyle is generally based around what I’ve done. I agree that it would most likely cause deterioration in their skill from lesser practice. During that time that I was working, in the military in before I have always managed to train with my instructor 3 times a week in class (2hrs) and usually 1 private lesson a week. For the past 2 years, I have had my own dojo and have run a class 3 times a week.
I agree it can often be hard to relate to the problems an older person may experience, but the potential student should not judge the potential teacher’s ability to do so purely on age – which is the point I’m discussing.

I agree with the reference to time in grade and objective teaching. The mere point I wish to express to those who shed their eyes is – see what the person knows, can do and what they can teach you before you judge them on their age. Most people around the 18-22 year mark might not make good teachers – but you might be lucky to find one who does.

Cheers,
_________________________
The traditional Karate guy, from an nontraditional background

Top
#428720 - 07/29/10 01:44 PM Re: Does age matter [Re: Reece]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I'm with cxt; agree and disagree.

I think there are always exceptions to the rule but they are rare. I would most certainly train with somebody younger if they had the necessary skills however I think in the majority of cases those teaching will have some age to them.

And while belts really don't tell a person's actual skill level, as I've seen lesser belts showing higher skills then higher belts, belts can at least be used as a guideline. Depending on the art, it may take 4-5 years to get a black belt (BJJ excluded); this is not enough life experience to begin teaching on one's own let alone run a school. 2 more years for a second degree black belt; again not enough life experience. 3 more years for a 3rd degree black belt; possibly a starting point of life experience, enough training and practical to begin teaching on one's own. 4 more years for a 4th degree black belt; should be a solid teacher. This is just not something a younger person has for experience. And I don't put faith into preteen or teen black belts.

I do believe we all have things we can share to make others better, at any level of our training, however with limited training comes limited instruction and practicality. Hard to make those you train grow enough when you yourself are limited. When training the amount of knowledge should be great enough that the teacher is leaps and bounds ahead of any student, and not just lower belt but those of higher belts that may become students. And as the students are growing the teacher should also be growing.

Don't get me wrong, as earlier stated there are exceptions to the rule but they are just that exceptions. Plus I do agree with your earlier statement and I would put more faith in life skills of a person in every day life who started young and has seen more and done more then an older person that has been idle in life. Age does not give you experience, experiencing gives you experience.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Top
Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 ... 11 12 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki, tkd_high_green 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga