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#155998 - 10/07/05 10:16 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
According to the FIGHT training manual:
"The Haganah self-defense system is primarily a merger of the two official marital arts of Israel, Krav Maga and Hisardut, added military tactics taught in KAPAP and LOTAR and other hand-to-hand and armed fighting techniques used by Israeli special forces operatives in extremely hostile sutiations."
"KAPAP is a Hebrew acronym for 'Face to Face Combat', what is referred to in the U.S. as 'Hand to Hand Combat'."

"LOTAR is the Hebrew combinatin of two words 'Lochama and Terror which directly translate to anti-terrorism warfare."

Mike Kanarek uses the word "Haganah" in honor of his father, Emil Kanarek, who served in the 'Palmach Brigades' in one of the 'Haganah' units during the Israeli War of Independence in 1948.

I notice a lot of concern over Kanarek's use of the term "Haganah"; it seems to offend some Israelis but I'm not really sure why, likely because I'm not an Israeli and don't understand the historical/cultural signifiance of these terms.

The comment that "Haganah looks a lot like krav but with more camo" cracks me up! That's funny! No one in our school wears camo, but one new guy showed up in camo pants and got so overheated and exhausted from wearing those heavy pants that he quit during the middle of the workout and never came back! I agree though, the camo looks a little silly (but don't tell Mike Kanarek I said that )

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#155999 - 10/07/05 10:28 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
Just want to clarify that I am not suggesting FIGHT only trains eye gouging etc. It was more a reference to other RBSD systems and/or practitioners who claim all this stuff they can't show you or do because it is too deadly. Also, many people on forums whose answer to everything is "I would just eye gouge him and F%^$ him up.". Ya, sure you would. It's a little more complicated.
I have seen the FIGHT dvd's and was not overly impressed by them. The classes from what I understand are quite different than the dvd's. Much more involved and containing important info lacking on the tapes.Kanarek from all I have heard is pretty damn good at what he does although that doesn't mean the system he is marketing is the be all and end all as it's described.
My big problem as I mentioned before is Haganah is something he made up. There is nothing wrong with that but it is not marketed that way. Krav with some changes,, for better or worse. I never questioned his military background but some questions have been raised on this forum. At least regarding some of the stories he tells. Then again anything is possible in that insane part of the world.
Also, I don't think that if you had became the world's most deadly fighting machine because of the training you received in the military you would need to train in all these other arts as Kanarek, Cucci(SEALS), etc all have. Wouldn't you be confident in your hand to hand abilities if the military was the ultimate in h2h training?

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#156000 - 10/07/05 10:44 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

I notice a lot of concern over Kanarek's use of the term "Haganah"; it seems to offend some Israelis but I'm not really sure why, likely because I'm not an Israeli and don't understand the historical/cultural signifiance of these terms.


I am not sure if concern is the right word - its sort of like somebody starting a school in the US and calling it "green berets dojo". you would wonder what his assosiation was with the green berets, if you were a green beret, you would wonder what gave him the right to use your name, it would suggest that he had leaned his arts in the greem berets, etc.

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#156001 - 10/07/05 12:40 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
That's an interesting analogy globetrotter. I understand your objection to Mike Kanarek's use of "Haganah" to describe his system stems from your skepticism over whether he learned these techniques like tactical knife fighting in the Israeli Special Forces. I think that's a valid point and one that I'm in no way qualified to argue against! If he's using this and other terms merely as a marketing ploy then that's a shame but I have no idea where the truth lies here.

It seems like we're at an impasse as far as the origins of Kanarek's Haganah system - he claims it stems from his Israeli Special Forces training and you and others I've seen on Internet Forums doubt that some of his techniques are taught to the Israeli SF. So be it. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone that I know what Kanarek's experience in the IDF was. Don't know nothing 'bout it!

I frankly don't really care whether Haganah is an "authentic" Israeli Special Forces self defense system. I like the system, it's fun to train and it seems like it would work - fortunately, I've never been tested in the street and I'd like to keep it that way.

The main reason I'm training in Haganah right now and not krav maga is that my school recently switched from the latter to the former. I trust my instructor when he says he thinks Haganah is a better system because it's taught in 3 to 4 month cycles where you learn the complete range of techniques in those 3-4 months and then cycle through them again, so that you see the complete curriculum 3 or 4 times a year. I think it's good to revisit all the techniques several times a year instead of training them at white belt level and never seeing them again.

One of the objections he and some of the krav students had was that you don't get to gun defenses, for example, until blue belt level, although both my krav instructors jumped ahead and taught some gun defenses in the earlier levels like orange and green.

And, I think my current instructor had some issues with what the Krav Maga organization was providing him in exchange for the fairly steep licensing fees they charged him every month.

I realize this is way off topic here but I'm addressing some other posts in the krav forum to save time.

For example, it often took 6 months for my school to receive our certificates from the NTC in LA (I've never rec'd any of my certificates from my belt tests in Seattle). And, aside from linking to his school on the kravmaga website, my instructor rec'd no help whatsoever with marketing, arranging seminiars, merchandising, whatever.

FIGHT, on the other hand, offers its DVDs and training manuals at a discounted rate to MA schools so it can sell them at a reasonable profit and so students will have those materials to supplement their training. That's part of the deal an MA school gets when it signs up for the FIGHT program.

Lastly, for a self defense system that claims to be easy to learn and based on one's instinctive reactions, krav contains some 'fancy' techniques ('fancy' being a relative term based on one's athletic ability) such as hook kicks (which I could never do with any effectiveness) and crescent kicks (which I would never try to pull off in a streetfight). FIGHT has the groin kick, kick to the thigh/knee (low round-house), front kick, rear kick, side kick). That's it.

And I know my instructor prefers the weapons defenses taught in FIGHT over some of the techniques taught in krav maga. Gun threat defenese high (head) for example is significantly different in FIGHT and is designed to keep the gun from discharging into someone standing to the side of the person doing the disarm; unlike krav maga which directs the gun to the side and into the line of fire of anybody unlucky enough to be standing to the side of the defender.

FIGHT also eliminates a lot of the "if he attacks you with the left hand or from the weak side then you do this other defense". Most FIGHT defenses employ ONE technique regardless of what hand the attacker is using or what direction he's attacking you from. The punch defense is a good example - whether you're defending against a right or left punch the defense is always to step to "11 o'clock", out of the line of attack and to simultaneously counter with a shot to the ribs, and then follow up with FIGHT's "point of reference" attacks (a much-maligned concept from what I understand - I'm keeping an open mind for now because any technique, whether it's FIGHT's "point of reference" techniques or a muay thai clinch, is only as good as the person employing it -- have a weak clinch? Then your opponent is going to get out of it and attack you. Have a weak "point of reference" follow-up? Then the opponent is going to escape and attack you; that's just the way it is.)

There are other variations that I'm learning. I don't know them all yet because I'm just finishing up my first rotation in FIGHT and there are classes I've missed and will have to wait until the next time they come around in the rotation.

Gotta go earn some money now folks! I gotta say though, this is a great forum; I usu. hate Internet MA forums because they're full of idiots threatening to kick each other's asses but most people on this forum seem to be genuinely interested in finding out about arts they don't understand, or in discussing the philosophies and techniques of MAs. I attribute that to a good moderator! Cheers.

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#156002 - 10/07/05 01:19 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
todd, the important thing is that this gives you what you are looking for. I study kung fu at a mcdojo at this stage of my life - probrably the last place I would want to be. why? because it is a 3 minute walk from my house, and it has classes from monring till night 5 days a week, it is convenient. so I go and enjoy the open gym sessions, and get what I can out of what I can enjoy.

fight might be an excellent art, and krav may be a rip off in the states, I don't know. I contributed just what I know.

anyway, injoy and good luck

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#156003 - 10/07/05 02:29 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Amen globetrotter. Well said. I feel your pain about a lack of good martial arts schools close by. I moved from Seattle where there was nearly every MA under the sun and classes offered day and night, to York PA where I have to drive 40 minutes to a good school, and there are NO BJJ schools close by! Convenience is key when you get to be an old man like me, so much so that I went to a kenpo class the other day 'cause it's close to my house and offers a day class 3x a week. Turns out, it looks like a good school - no katas, very nice instructor and students, and they seem to work on sparring in every class--good, controlled sparring where the instructor gives you individual feedback on what you're doing, or not doing. So, if I've learned anything in my relatively brief experience in the martial arts it's to keep an open mind. A good martial artist can get something good out of whatever MA he or she trains.
Cheers to you sir.
Todd

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#156004 - 10/08/05 02:33 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
I will take your word that the FIGHT manual says that. I think his site is a little more sketchy. The selling point of FIGHT is certainly the easiness and the 1 or 2 moves to POR from any position. I just find some of the techniques do not work at all and that if you are in the POR(dvd's) they offer you nothing if that is defended or slipped from. Except to start over and go back to the POR again.
From what I have seen on the dvd's though I am mystified why people in any more formidable art would gravitate towards it. It is severely lacking in some areas. It can I think maybe add a technique to an arsenal but if I were already a MMA with any skills I really wouldn't see the point of it.
I really believe the schools that add it are doing so more to make money than to offer an insurmountable defense system. I would take BJJ, Sambo, Judo, etc and put them up against any of these FIGHT guys and I doubt the FIGHT guys would stand a chance. Again though I can only commment from the dvd experience. No classes to check out where I am.
In regards to Kanarek, he seems to be the real deal. He has a rotten temper though and does not like to be criticized.

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#156005 - 10/10/05 01:32 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fightknight]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
I understand your skepticism fightknight. One of the funniest things to me is that "FIGHT" stands for "Fierce Israeli Guerilla Hand-to-Hand Tactics!" Ummmm, yeah. But like I said, I trust my instructor that FIGHT is a good RBSD system.

I also have some skepticism with regard to the "points of reference" and what you do if you can't get there or if you can't maintain the POR. That's why I do my best, with limited time, energy, and resources, to cross-train in standup and ground fighting, and I try to spar as much as possible. I wouldn't consider someone who only trained in FIGHT, krav maga, or another RBSD system who didn't also know how to at least box and had some basic ground skills to be able to defend themselves effectively in street fight or assault. A good RBSD system should teach you these basics but, yeah, good luck against an attacker who is a hardcore mixed martial artist. You'd better hope you have a weapon and know how to use it. Again, Kanarek is the first to tell you that you should cross-train--he does. He's a full-contact kickboxer and has a blue belt in BJJ. If I had my way, I'd be training in an MMA type gym that also offered krav maga because I think you need some reality-based training that teaches you how to deal with a knife or gun attack, and I still think krav maga and FIGHT are two of the best RBSD systems out there.

I'd be interested in other areas where you feel FIGHT is seriously lacking. As I've mentioned before, I haven't even finished my first rotation of the 4-month cycle so I haven't seen all the techniques, and I miss class more than I should since I'm trying to work on my BJJ right now (damn, it is HARD to train BJJ in York, PA!!! Where are all the BJJ-ers around here? Oh yeah, they're in Philly and Baltimore).

Party on.
Todd

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#156006 - 10/10/05 02:54 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
you're totally on to something there, todd. it's too bad your schools are limited. here in chicago, i am lucky enough to attend a school where i primarily take krav and bjj along with kali, muay thai, wushu and TAI CHI! the idea is that SOME tradition is good, but only enough to make you a well rounded fighter - not so much to hinder the pursuit of learning practical self defense. however, given your limitations it seems very fortunate that you have a specialized system like FIGHT around. mcsensei or not, kanarek is doing people a great service in offering them something more than cookie-cutter karate or tkd in areas that wouldn't have them otherwise. happy training.
btw - let me know if FIGHT is ever doing a seminar in chicago. i'd like to at least check it out for a day.

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#156007 - 10/11/05 10:54 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Thanks ShikataGaNai,
I moved to PA from Seattle where you can train just about any martial art you want. Because of all the great schools there I switched from krav maga after a year and a half and trained JKD and BJJ for another year and a half before moving to York, PA. I also tried out a silat class and a wing chung (sp?) class, and was able to train at a boxing gym that was literally 4 blocks from my house. <sigh> Aside from the god-awful traffic and the exorbitant real estate prices there, I REALLY miss Seattle. I'd have to start a new thread to list all the things I miss about that city, and you'd kick me off the forum for boring everybody to death.
Cheers.
Todd

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