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#155988 - 10/05/05 02:06 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Like I said, you'd know about the IDF since you were in it. Enough said. And, yeah, regardless of what anyone thinks about Mike Kanarek's FIGHT system they're hopefully willing to recognize that the guy has some serious skills and is a good instructor. Plus, how can you knock a guy for being a savvy marketer? I see too many of my former martial arts instructors struggling to make ends meet with their schools, so it's a challenging business and if you can't market yourself effectively you're not going to excel. That said, I don't agree with schools that make false claims about their systems/arts but I don't think this is what Kanarek is doing. I suspect that there's more going on here than either you or I understand. I don't know enough about Kanarek's military experience to know what's fact and what's fiction but my point was that I think his FIGHT system is a worthy one to train in. Thanks for your comments globetrotter (and Mike Kanarek is also a lot better martial artist than I'll ever be...but I'm better looking! )

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#155989 - 10/05/05 03:25 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fightknight]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
At the instructor training seminar that my MA instructor attended (yes, this is second-hand information so take it for what it's worth) Mike Kanarek talked about a "crowd control" tactic that members of his unit, the Golani Brigade, would employ: in a crowd of angry Palestinians where the situation was about to turn violent one Golani Brigade member would work his way into the middle of the crowd and drive a fixed blade knife into the soft tissue between a person's collar bone and neck. Kanarek apparently said that the sight of a Palestinian with a knife sticking out the side of their neck and dying in the street caused a "parting of the waters" in the crowd and was highly effective in getting the angry crowd to disperse. Again, as to the truth of this statement, I have no idea.
I agree that the whole "size is irrelevant" claim is suspect, esp. when other MA instructors of mine have said things like, "the two most important attributes in a street fight are power and aggressiveness". Granted, smaller people can generate a lot of power and it's been my experience that training with a larger, more muscular partner doesn't necessarily mean that person can generate a powerful punch or kick but, all things being equal, you gotta think a larger, stronger person has the advantage in a "real fight." Though there are probably exceptions--I wish I could see a boxing match, for example, that pitted a super-fast light weight against a powerful but arguably slower heavyweight. Woe to the light weight if one of the heavyweight's punches really landed though!
And, as for the "deadliness" of RBDS, Kanarek is actually pretty frank about this business of learning "anti-grappling" techniques and other nonesense. He says, "what makes you think that you can learn a few techniques like eye gouging or ball kicking but a trained grappler can't?" Get real, the only way to defend yourself on the ground is to train with experienced grapplers. All your "special techniques" go out the window if some former high school wrestler can dominate you positionally and rain down a shower of punches on your butt.
I also have questions about Kanarek's insistence that all his Haganah students carry knives. He says that the knife is the great equalizer on the street and that size and strength become irrelevant when the smaller person deploys a knife and knows how to use it. Sounds awfully sketchy to me, esp. in terms of the legal issues it raises. But, if someone prison-pumped criminal threatened my life I guess I'd be happy to have a tactical folder with serrated edge ready to even things up a bit.
Lastly, I also agree with FightKnight that all systems have shortcomings esp. in the realm of knife and gun defenses--these are scary scenarios and you'd have to execute the techniques flawlessly to avoid getting wounded or killed, and the gun and knife defenses that I've trained in a variety of arts: kali, krav maga, and FIGHT aren't the easiest things in the world to execute. I just hope I never have to try to disarm some idiot with a gun or knife.
Cheers.

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#155990 - 10/06/05 10:31 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
I find the tendency toward eye gouging, etc somewhat unrealistic. If all you are training for is a home invasion or someone sticking a gun in your ear then maybe. Or in a female's case where it is absolutely an all bets are off situation because attacks on women are never testosterone bravado they are going to rape or kill you. But if your only means of defense is an eye gouge or some equally extreme act of violence you are going to spend time in jail. You can't blind a guy in a barfight or parking spot dispute and expect that to sail in court. Also, I think a lot of people no matter how often they train it will freeze up when the thought of actually blinding a guy for life enters their brain. That is a big move. Anyone who can do it without a twinge of conscience already is in prison or should be.
Also, all these RBSD guys trash MMA. Why do they think they can kick a guys ass out of the ring when they can't touch the guy in it? Matt Thornton's SBGI site has some awesome articles on this. Check it out. In regards to FIGHT I have seen the dvd's and I understand some of it. Some of it just plain won't work. Especially if you are trying to learn it off the dvd and not training in a class where you roll. Like any dvd. Until you feel it and see what it's like to come up against a resisting opponent you are clueless.

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#155991 - 10/06/05 12:31 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
York is only about 45 min away from me, so I may have to drive out and see for myself.

_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#155992 - 10/06/05 01:53 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

At the instructor training seminar that my MA instructor attended (yes, this is second-hand information so take it for what it's worth) Mike Kanarek talked about a "crowd control" tactic that members of his unit, the Golani Brigade, would employ: in a crowd of angry Palestinians where the situation was about to turn violent one Golani Brigade member would work his way into the middle of the crowd and drive a fixed blade knife into the soft tissue between a person's collar bone and neck. Kanarek apparently said that the sight of a Palestinian with a knife sticking out the side of their neck and dying in the street caused a "parting of the waters" in the crowd and was highly effective in getting the angry crowd to disperse. Again, as to the truth of this statement, I have no idea.
I agree that the whole "size is irrelevant" claim is suspect, esp. when other MA instructors of mine have said things like, "the two most important attributes in a street fight are power and aggressiveness". Granted, smaller people can generate a lot of power and it's been my experience that training with a larger, more muscular partner doesn't necessarily mean that person can generate a powerful punch or kick but, all things being equal, you gotta think a larger, stronger person has the advantage in a "real fight." Though there are probably exceptions--I wish I could see a boxing match, for example, that pitted a super-fast light weight against a powerful but arguably slower heavyweight. Woe to the light weight if one of the heavyweight's punches really landed though!
And, as for the "deadliness" of RBDS, Kanarek is actually pretty frank about this business of learning "anti-grappling" techniques and other nonesense. He says, "what makes you think that you can learn a few techniques like eye gouging or ball kicking but a trained grappler can't?" Get real, the only way to defend yourself on the ground is to train with experienced grapplers. All your "special techniques" go out the window if some former high school wrestler can dominate you positionally and rain down a shower of punches on your butt.
I also have questions about Kanarek's insistence that all his Haganah students carry knives. He says that the knife is the great equalizer on the street and that size and strength become irrelevant when the smaller person deploys a knife and knows how to use it. Sounds awfully sketchy to me, esp. in terms of the legal issues it raises. But, if someone prison-pumped criminal threatened my life I guess I'd be happy to have a tactical folder with serrated edge ready to even things up a bit.
Lastly, I also agree with FightKnight that all systems have shortcomings esp. in the realm of knife and gun defenses--these are scary scenarios and you'd have to execute the techniques flawlessly to avoid getting wounded or killed, and the gun and knife defenses that I've trained in a variety of arts: kali, krav maga, and FIGHT aren't the easiest things in the world to execute. I just hope I never have to try to disarm some idiot with a gun or knife.
Cheers.





tod,

sorry to beat this to death - maybe, that is an intersting story.... guys from the golani brigade were pretty insane, maybe... hard to say. IF you said that this was part of a story that started with "I had this sargeant who was so F***ing crazy, one time..." I would believe it. I find it really hard to believe that this was tought as a standard operating procedure. I will tell you comes to mind right away

1. you would never have a situation with israeli soldiers surrounded by a crowd of palestinians, without some firearms in the hands of the israelis. in the second intifadah, you would never have a situation without all the soliders armed - in the first, we used to sometimes have a situation where 2 or 4 would have rifles, and 10 or so would just have sticks to run quickly, but in the second intafadah that didnt happen. if sticking a knife in somebodies neck parts a crowd- turning somebodies head into a fine mist of blood and brain matter with an assult rifle from close range does a great job.

2. anytime a palestinian is stabbed by an israeli, or this is suspected, it requires a military police inquiry - because of fears that soldiers would torture prisoners. so, would it be better to shoot somebody, club them, or stab them, when only one gets you an investigation?

3. occording to the rules, even if you think that a situation is going to get violent, you don't use leathal force first - typically what would happen would be that a line of soldiers would confront the pals with night sticks and shields, and push them back. if there was no threat - you shouldn't stob someobody, if there was a threat, you shoot them.


again, sorry to beat this dead horse, it just happens to be something that I know about, and it annoys me to read about this kind of thing.

look at it this way - over a 10 or 20 year period, IDF soldiers probrably had as many clashes using night sticks as the NYPD did. how come nobody ever advertises that aspect of krav maga? the knife thing is romantic, but false. you see my point?


Edited by globetrotter (10/06/05 02:04 PM)

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#155993 - 10/06/05 02:36 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fightknight]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
I agree with you fightknight--anyone who tells you that you don't need to train kickboxing, grappling, or some other form of standup and ground fighting in order to be able to defend yourself is setting you up for a serious ass-whooping. None of my krav maga instructors did this--they stressed how important it is to cross-train and to spar. Learn to punch and kick properly, learn basic footwork, defenses, evasive moves, learn some good combinations, and defintely fight dirty if it's a self-defense situation. So, I can't say that in my experience "all RBSD guys trash traditional martial arts". I just haven't seen that. A lot of non-traditional martial artists wonder about MAs that have you keep you hands low, or that focus a lot on katas and don't do any full-contact or near-full-contact sparring, or which don't incorporate stress drills and multiple attack scenarios, but all the smart people I've worked with in krav understand that a good martial artist will gain something from whatever MA he or she trains. Hell, the people who came to krav maga with backgrounds in another art were always at a distinct advantage over beginners like me. People can bash TKD all they want but those people can usually throw a decent kick and punch--sure, there are always exceptions (there are some McDojos out there after all) but I was always jealous of the people who were belted in another art. Again, what I like best about krav maga and haganah is that they're open systems and they do their best to incorporate new techniques and modify old ones as they see fit. Both my krav instructors were very knowledgeable martial artists from both a traditional and non-traditional perspective and I believe that can only help their students in the long run. Too much bashing goes on from all sides--everyone wants to think their art is the be-all-and-end-all, but it's just not true. My approach has been to pick a "core" art and then cross-train to supplement that core. It's the individual, not the art, that matters.

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#155994 - 10/06/05 02:46 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: RangerG]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Come on down RangerG! FIGHT classes are Mon and Wed from 7:30 to about 9:00 and we have open gym on Fridays from 6:00 to 7:30 where we've lately been training BJJ. About 45 mins of working basic techniques and 30 - 45 mins of rolling. I probably won't be at the Mon/Wed class for the next several weeks because I'm working toward an instructor certification in BJJ. We're having a seminar with Dave Meyer on Sat., Nov. 13th, at which I and my FIGHT instructor hope to get certified to teach the first two levels of the BJJ blue belt curriculum (I'm sure my FIGHT instructor will pass but I'm going to have to work my butt off!) Cheers. Todd

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#155995 - 10/06/05 02:53 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Again, you'd know better than I what happens in the IDF. I was just relaying a story that Kanarek told my instructor when he went through FIGHT instructor training. And bear in mind that Kanarek isn't saying that Israeli Tactical Knife Fighting is part of krav maga - he's saying it's a part of his Haganah system which, from the points you've made, sounds like Kanarek has taken some aspects of IDF training in LOTAR, KAPAP, survival hisardut, and krav maga, and added liberally to them. The whole knife fighting thing scares the hell out of me frankly, and like I said I have reservations about pulling a knife on someone since most criminals and street punks carry guns now - I think I'd have to be in dire straights before I'd use a knife for self defense, but I guess that's the whole point - don't deploy it unless you're prepared to use it. The haganah system also has a tactical shooting element to it but I suspect that's reserved for military and law enforcement, though you could probably take that course if you were an advanced haganah practitioner. Good discussion globetrotter; I'm learning a lot here, thanks.

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#155996 - 10/06/05 03:17 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
ok, correct me if i'm wrong, globetrotter -
kapap, lotar, "haganah" (isn't that a branch of the idf not an MA???), krav maga = ALL THE SAME THING! or so i've been told.
and since when did firearms become part of a MA system? if shooting is an MA, it is it's own MA. there is a right way to fire an ak47, whether you're in krav, wushu or ballet. given the chance, i would totally give FIGHT a try - but after looking at it's web content again and again, i don't see much difference in it from krav, other than the fact that they like to wear more camo.

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#155997 - 10/06/05 03:58 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

ok, correct me if i'm wrong, globetrotter -
kapap, lotar, "haganah" (isn't that a branch of the idf not an MA???), krav maga = ALL THE SAME THING! or so i've been told.
and since when did firearms become part of a MA system? if shooting is an MA, it is it's own MA. there is a right way to fire an ak47, whether you're in krav, wushu or ballet. given the chance, i would totally give FIGHT a try - but after looking at it's web content again and again, i don't see much difference in it from krav, other than the fact that they like to wear more camo.





again, this might be a very good group of guys, and a very effective system, I don't know, but their marketing does rub me the wrong way.

haganah is "defense" in hebrew. in the early days of israel, it was a militia. hagana brings an image of "minuteman" in america.

lotar comes from the letters for "fighting terror" - the course that scouts and special forces take for close combat fighting is called "lotar".

kapap - no idea

but I feel that they have taken terms that have an assosiation and used them to promote their systems.

in terms of the shooting - these guys seem to have taken skils they learned in the IDF for shooting and now they teach them to civillians who don't realy need it for money.

anyway, peace y'all

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