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#155978 - 08/10/05 09:39 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Equis]
Victor Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 2
I rarely post on forums, it can be frustrating dealing with less than serious martial artists who’s enjoyment in life is bashing – ignorance is bliss… As far as this topic, I would recommend that you keep an open mind. Haganah, the FIGHT system and curriculum are awesome, and I speak first hand. Do some real research, perhaps check out a class. End your speculation, guessing and unfounded hearsay. If you are in southern Florida, or are in range of a seminar featuring Mike Lee Kanarek, stop by, you will not be disappointed!
Walk On

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#155979 - 09/25/05 06:29 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Victor]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
First off, I am not going to trash FIGHT as a system. I have seen the dvd's and I have my opinions but will keep them to myself. I will tell you that some of the people associated with FIGHT(on the forum) can be awesomely childish when faced with any sort of legitimate question. Mr. Kanarek also needs to tone down his temper. I have seen him lose it on his site and examples of him going over the top at others. The examples are readily available on the internet with a little effort. The one thing I will say about FIGHT is that if you get to their POR and the guy blocks your knees you are screwed.
I would like to point out the obvious contradiction in people who claim to be deadly military warriors who then go on to train in other systems. Why bother if you are already an unbeatable military trained killing machine? Why, because the military trains you to shoot people not beat them up. Cucci, Kanarek, etc went on to other arts after the Seals etc.
Haganah is definitely a system that was created by Kanarek(which is fine)but I don't feel that he markets it that way. It is represented as the style that the Israeli Military is taught and it isn't. Also, the majority of his deadly FIGHT affiliated schools are the McDojos everyone ridicules, even on his own site.
In regards to Victor who posted the pro FIGHT piece. I noticed you are a JKD guy which is cool but your lineage is from Ted Wong. Mr. Wong may or may not have been about to be certified in JKD by Bruce Lee, but the fact is that he wasn't. I wonder if Mr. Wong represents himself as certified by Bruce. If he does that is incorrect.

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#155980 - 09/27/05 10:37 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fightknight]
Victor Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 2
Ignroance is bliss... Don't beleive everything you hear, and most of all, open your mind Fightknight.

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#155981 - 09/27/05 11:10 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Victor]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
Victor..what does that mean? Of what am I ignorant? Have seen the FIGHT tapes and have had a personal experience with the childishness etc of some on the FIGHT site. That includes Mr. Kanarek.
In regards to Ted Wong he wasn't certified by Lee. Sorry, only 3 guys were and he wasn't one of them.

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#155982 - 09/30/05 02:11 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fightknight]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Whoa you two...lets keep this civil. There is no honor in mud slinging and name calling.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#155983 - 10/05/05 11:51 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Victor]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
As someone who has trained in both krav maga and FIGHT I can tell you that FIGHT isn't a "McMartial Art" and Mike Kanarek certainly isn't a poser. My instructor, who is a 3rd degree black belt in hapkido and a 4th degree in TKD, in addition to being a certified instructor in krav maga, has been to a FIGHT instructor training session with Mike Kanarek and, to quote my instructor, "Mike's skills are SCARY!!" Mike is a 5th degree black belt in Joe Lewis's full-contact kickboxing, has a black belt in krav maga, and also cross-trains in BJJ in which he holds a blue belt.
My understanding is that Mike Kanarek started FIGHT because he was unhappy with the weapons defenses of krav maga so he began to adapt them to the special forces training he rec'd in the Israeli military and in conjunction with people who were still serving in various special forces organizations in Israel and had studied techniques such as Lotar, Kapap, and survival hisardut, so the FIGHT system is a combination of all these arts. As for there being no such thing as Israeli Tactical Knife Fighting, you might want to either check out his DVD set on that topic, go to his training center in Florida, or attend one of his seminars to see what it's all about--the guy knows how to use a knife.
If you have issues with specific FIGHT techniques then that's cool--I know a lot of martial artists take issue with the "point of reference" tactic that FIGHT employs, and that's a valid criticism. I often wonder how effective it would be to try to establish a point of reference with a skilled fighter, or someone who's substantially bigger than I am, but that's why I also cross-train in kickboxing and BJJ. We should all be able to agree that there's no such thing as the "be-all-and-end-all" of martial arts systems, and FIGHT is no exception. But as far as reality-based self defense systems go, I think FIGHT is as good as they get--it's going to teach you how to respond to specific life-threatening attacks and, yes, it also offers a full range of combatives and defenses for unarmed fighting.
People who don't practice a specific art/system are always going to favor the art or system that they do practice, otherwise why would they be practicing it? But let's not kid ourselves that just because we practice a certain art that it's superior to all others--I don't feel that way about FIGHT or anything else I've trained in. When it comes right down to it, isn't it really about making damn sure you have a SOLID base in the basic skills of punching, kicking, footwork, situational awareness, ground survival, etc. than worrying about how many belts your instructor has or how much money he's making because he happens to be a savvy marketer?

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#155984 - 10/05/05 12:17 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

As someone who has trained in both krav maga and FIGHT I can tell you that FIGHT isn't a "McMartial Art" and Mike Kanarek certainly isn't a poser. My instructor, who is a 3rd degree black belt in hapkido and a 4th degree in TKD, in addition to being a certified instructor in krav maga, has been to a FIGHT instructor training session with Mike Kanarek and, to quote my instructor, "Mike's skills are SCARY!!" Mike is a 5th degree black belt in Joe Lewis's full-contact kickboxing, has a black belt in krav maga, and also cross-trains in BJJ in which he holds a blue belt.
My understanding is that Mike Kanarek started FIGHT because he was unhappy with the weapons defenses of krav maga so he began to adapt them to the special forces training he rec'd in the Israeli military and in conjunction with people who were still serving in various special forces organizations in Israel and had studied techniques such as Lotar, Kapap, and survival hisardut, so the FIGHT system is a combination of all these arts. As for there being no such thing as Israeli Tactical Knife Fighting, you might want to either check out his DVD set on that topic, go to his training center in Florida, or attend one of his seminars to see what it's all about--the guy knows how to use a knife.
If you have issues with specific FIGHT techniques then that's cool--I know a lot of martial artists take issue with the "point of reference" tactic that FIGHT employs, and that's a valid criticism. I often wonder how effective it would be to try to establish a point of reference with a skilled fighter, or someone who's substantially bigger than I am, but that's why I also cross-train in kickboxing and BJJ. We should all be able to agree that there's no such thing as the "be-all-and-end-all" of martial arts systems, and FIGHT is no exception. But as far as reality-based self defense systems go, I think FIGHT is as good as they get--it's going to teach you how to respond to specific life-threatening attacks and, yes, it also offers a full range of combatives and defenses for unarmed fighting.
People who don't practice a specific art/system are always going to favor the art or system that they do practice, otherwise why would they be practicing it? But let's not kid ourselves that just because we practice a certain art that it's superior to all others--I don't feel that way about FIGHT or anything else I've trained in. When it comes right down to it, isn't it really about making damn sure you have a SOLID base in the basic skills of punching, kicking, footwork, situational awareness, ground survival, etc. than worrying about how many belts your instructor has or how much money he's making because he happens to be a savvy marketer?





todd, I apprectiate your enthousiasm. two points from my persepctive

1. what rubs me a little about these type of things is the attempt to link it with israel. here you have a guy who has some experience with an israeli style, as well as a whole lot more experience with various far eastern styles, and a brazilian style. how come nobody ever comes out and says "I loved krav, but I didn't think it had everything that I thought was needed in a martial art, so I added material from several other martial arts, and now I think this is a much better system"?

2. again, as of 15 years ago or so, the israeli military didn't teach knife fighting. I strongly suspect they haven't started in the meantime. I have no doubt that mike Kanarek knows how to use a knife, maybe he is fantastic with a knife. he didn't learn it in the israeli army, unless he did 40 or 50 years ago (using the british wwii knife fighting system) or he did in the past 15 years, which I am sceptical. so I would be much more comfortable if he said "I love krav, but the knife fighting was minimal, so I needed to spupliment it with techniques that I added from south east asian styles." this would appear much more straight forward to me.

anyway, peace

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#155985 - 10/05/05 12:33 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Yeah, a lot of people take issue with FIGHT's claims to association with the Israeli Special Forces and you obviously know more about their knife fighting history than I do. I can't claim to know much about the history of the IDF or the various special forces units that Mike Kanarek was/is associated with. I do know that during Kanarek's instructor certification seminars he talks about using a knife for "crowd control" and for taking out enemy combatants quietly, but where he learned those techniques and whether there is such a thing as "Israeli Tactical Knife Fighting" outside the FIGHT system, I honestly have no idea. Point taken.

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#155986 - 10/05/05 12:52 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
see, what I can tell you, that I know beyond a fraction of a doubt, that under no circomstances would a person in the employ of the israeli security forces use a knife for crowd control - this is such a sensitive point that I think that there is no room for doubt. the IDF would much rather a soldier club a person to death than cut his hand - just from a PR and damage control perspective. soldiers are tought to use sticks, but not knives, and a stick is much better for crowd control, I believe.

concerning "taking out an enemy quietly" this is also not done. the standard procedure is to get real close and shoot him with a silenced firearm. or at least it was 15 years ago. I can't imagine it has changed.

I find that a lot of these teachers and schools do everything that they can to show that they were related to the IDF special forces, and that just annoys me.

and to be perfectly clear on this - I was in the IDF, in a unit that would be considered special forces. I have no doubt that Mike K is both a much better martial artist than I am, and a better teacher. I have no doubt that he could kick my ass, and he is probrbly both better looking and a nicer guy, for all I know. His way of controling crowds and of taking out enemies quietly might be much better than the one I learned a long time ago. but for what every reason he is telling people that the things he is teaching were developed in a "lab" that I know pretty well, I and have every reason to believe that these techniques were not developed there. that is my only point.

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#155987 - 10/05/05 02:05 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
I believe that under no circumstances would a knife be used for crowd control. I would imagine it is still taught for silently killing a sentry. How often one genuinely ends up in that position is a different story.
I have seen the FIGHT tapes and Mike is definitely proficient with a knife. He is probably as good unarmed. My issue with FIGHT or any system is the impression that strength and size are irrelevant. That is pure bs. Maybe at a Master level(and even then I doubt it) but the average guy trying to learn off of video is going to get himself killed. There is a reason for weight divisions in all contact fight disciplines. The FIGHT tapes also contain techniques that are flawed from a real conflict perspective. All arts have this problem to some degree or another. The fact is unless you roll and can get it on an unwilling person you will never know if it works. Alot of the RBSD stuff is supposedly "so deadly" they can never actually do it. So how do they know if it works? I can stick my finger in your eye and kick you in the balls and know the effect it will have but can I land that in the first place.
By the way thanks for backing up my POR issue. I am having that disagreement a lot these days.

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