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#155968 - 06/15/05 08:32 AM A new version of Krav?
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Call me "Late for Dinner", but I just found out about Haganah.

It is promoted by Integrated Defensive Fighting Systems, Inc. as the F.I.G.H.T.Program.

Here is a link to a dojo in my area with a rundown:

http://www.mccormickkarate.com/mk_f.i.g.h.t.htm


Talking to others in my area, it seems to be another "flavor" of the Krav basics with some changes.

Anyone able to give an educated opinion based on experience?

Just wondering....
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#155969 - 06/15/05 09:00 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: RangerG]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
I get the feeling that "hagana" and "dennis survival" and 2 systems that were developed by people who had some KM training and some martial arts training and decided to open dojos without paying off the "franchise fee" or "royalty" that KM expected from them. I don't think that it is fundementaly different, just "politically" different.

one thing - I would be willing to bet my butt that there is no such thing as "Israeli knife fighting". when I was in the military, it was not something that was tought to anybody, except as a very very small part of krav maga. it was very much frowned upon to carry a fighting knife, with the idea that it was alwayd better to have a bachup pistol than a knife, or to use a silencer rather than a knife. so if this school is teaching "israeli knife fighting" it is already suspicious in my eyes.

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#155970 - 06/15/05 12:09 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: RangerG]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida


What I want to know is, who finances something like this to get it started with the full color double page ads in Black Belt magazine every month?


Edited by Fletch1 (06/15/05 12:10 PM)
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#155971 - 06/15/05 12:40 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fletch1]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
the return on investment is huge. I don't know what a double spead in BB costs, but in the mags I advertise in that is maybe $8K. investing 50K in building up a name for a style like this is nothing if you can get a few thousand students willing to pay $150 a month and seminars.

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#155972 - 06/18/05 10:29 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

the return on investment is huge. I don't know what a double spead in BB costs, but in the mags I advertise in that is maybe $8K. investing 50K in building up a name for a style like this is nothing if you can get a few thousand students willing to pay $150 a month and seminars.




We had a discussion at our dojo about this and I think you hit the mark here. The former Israeli Commando who developed Haganah is cashing in on the financial success of Krav...at least that is the consensus.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#155973 - 06/22/05 05:41 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: RangerG]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
I thought that Haganah were Israeli special forces, and not a version of Krav maga.

Here`s a quote from wikipedia on haganah:
Quote:

The Haganah (Hebrew: "Defense", הגנה) was a Jewish paramilitary organization in Palestine during the British mandate of Palestine from 1920 to 1948. The Haganah are known to be the foundation of the modern Israel Defense Forces (צה"ל)—Israel's army.


_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#155974 - 06/22/05 08:19 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Kosh]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
haganah was the origional defense force, pre-state, in israel. it also means "defense".

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#155975 - 06/22/05 08:24 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: RangerG]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I found another site that goes into detail. This is posted only for the purpose of education, not to promote the school.

http://www.fight2survive.com/
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#155976 - 06/23/05 01:45 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: RangerG]
madmattg Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Its obvious looking at the web sites, it is a self developed martial arts. He has done a variety of other and I quote "Haganah, an Israeli system developed by Israeli Special Forces veteran and world-class martial artist, Mike Lee Kanarek"

He has also done Krav before and states under the old system of grading he is a 1st Dan Black belt in it. This grading system is no longer used under the true IKMF system.

So make your only conclusions.
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It wasnt the bow or the arrow......It was Robin Hood.

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#155977 - 06/24/05 03:45 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: madmattg]
Equis Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 101
Loc: in my pants.
I don't know I have to agree I think he is trying to circumvent the IKMF licensing.

If he really wanted to add some of his special moves from what other MA he as studied he could. As long as he did not stray from the curriculum of the KM as it is known from IFMF and KMAA. It would really just be his own brand of KM as many "dojos" of KM differ in technique slightly depending on what the instructor has studied previously.

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#155978 - 08/10/05 09:39 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Equis]
Victor Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 2
I rarely post on forums, it can be frustrating dealing with less than serious martial artists who’s enjoyment in life is bashing – ignorance is bliss… As far as this topic, I would recommend that you keep an open mind. Haganah, the FIGHT system and curriculum are awesome, and I speak first hand. Do some real research, perhaps check out a class. End your speculation, guessing and unfounded hearsay. If you are in southern Florida, or are in range of a seminar featuring Mike Lee Kanarek, stop by, you will not be disappointed!
Walk On

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#155979 - 09/25/05 06:29 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Victor]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
First off, I am not going to trash FIGHT as a system. I have seen the dvd's and I have my opinions but will keep them to myself. I will tell you that some of the people associated with FIGHT(on the forum) can be awesomely childish when faced with any sort of legitimate question. Mr. Kanarek also needs to tone down his temper. I have seen him lose it on his site and examples of him going over the top at others. The examples are readily available on the internet with a little effort. The one thing I will say about FIGHT is that if you get to their POR and the guy blocks your knees you are screwed.
I would like to point out the obvious contradiction in people who claim to be deadly military warriors who then go on to train in other systems. Why bother if you are already an unbeatable military trained killing machine? Why, because the military trains you to shoot people not beat them up. Cucci, Kanarek, etc went on to other arts after the Seals etc.
Haganah is definitely a system that was created by Kanarek(which is fine)but I don't feel that he markets it that way. It is represented as the style that the Israeli Military is taught and it isn't. Also, the majority of his deadly FIGHT affiliated schools are the McDojos everyone ridicules, even on his own site.
In regards to Victor who posted the pro FIGHT piece. I noticed you are a JKD guy which is cool but your lineage is from Ted Wong. Mr. Wong may or may not have been about to be certified in JKD by Bruce Lee, but the fact is that he wasn't. I wonder if Mr. Wong represents himself as certified by Bruce. If he does that is incorrect.

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#155980 - 09/27/05 10:37 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fightknight]
Victor Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 2
Ignroance is bliss... Don't beleive everything you hear, and most of all, open your mind Fightknight.

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#155981 - 09/27/05 11:10 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Victor]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
Victor..what does that mean? Of what am I ignorant? Have seen the FIGHT tapes and have had a personal experience with the childishness etc of some on the FIGHT site. That includes Mr. Kanarek.
In regards to Ted Wong he wasn't certified by Lee. Sorry, only 3 guys were and he wasn't one of them.

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#155982 - 09/30/05 02:11 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fightknight]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Whoa you two...lets keep this civil. There is no honor in mud slinging and name calling.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#155983 - 10/05/05 11:51 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Victor]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
As someone who has trained in both krav maga and FIGHT I can tell you that FIGHT isn't a "McMartial Art" and Mike Kanarek certainly isn't a poser. My instructor, who is a 3rd degree black belt in hapkido and a 4th degree in TKD, in addition to being a certified instructor in krav maga, has been to a FIGHT instructor training session with Mike Kanarek and, to quote my instructor, "Mike's skills are SCARY!!" Mike is a 5th degree black belt in Joe Lewis's full-contact kickboxing, has a black belt in krav maga, and also cross-trains in BJJ in which he holds a blue belt.
My understanding is that Mike Kanarek started FIGHT because he was unhappy with the weapons defenses of krav maga so he began to adapt them to the special forces training he rec'd in the Israeli military and in conjunction with people who were still serving in various special forces organizations in Israel and had studied techniques such as Lotar, Kapap, and survival hisardut, so the FIGHT system is a combination of all these arts. As for there being no such thing as Israeli Tactical Knife Fighting, you might want to either check out his DVD set on that topic, go to his training center in Florida, or attend one of his seminars to see what it's all about--the guy knows how to use a knife.
If you have issues with specific FIGHT techniques then that's cool--I know a lot of martial artists take issue with the "point of reference" tactic that FIGHT employs, and that's a valid criticism. I often wonder how effective it would be to try to establish a point of reference with a skilled fighter, or someone who's substantially bigger than I am, but that's why I also cross-train in kickboxing and BJJ. We should all be able to agree that there's no such thing as the "be-all-and-end-all" of martial arts systems, and FIGHT is no exception. But as far as reality-based self defense systems go, I think FIGHT is as good as they get--it's going to teach you how to respond to specific life-threatening attacks and, yes, it also offers a full range of combatives and defenses for unarmed fighting.
People who don't practice a specific art/system are always going to favor the art or system that they do practice, otherwise why would they be practicing it? But let's not kid ourselves that just because we practice a certain art that it's superior to all others--I don't feel that way about FIGHT or anything else I've trained in. When it comes right down to it, isn't it really about making damn sure you have a SOLID base in the basic skills of punching, kicking, footwork, situational awareness, ground survival, etc. than worrying about how many belts your instructor has or how much money he's making because he happens to be a savvy marketer?

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#155984 - 10/05/05 12:17 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

As someone who has trained in both krav maga and FIGHT I can tell you that FIGHT isn't a "McMartial Art" and Mike Kanarek certainly isn't a poser. My instructor, who is a 3rd degree black belt in hapkido and a 4th degree in TKD, in addition to being a certified instructor in krav maga, has been to a FIGHT instructor training session with Mike Kanarek and, to quote my instructor, "Mike's skills are SCARY!!" Mike is a 5th degree black belt in Joe Lewis's full-contact kickboxing, has a black belt in krav maga, and also cross-trains in BJJ in which he holds a blue belt.
My understanding is that Mike Kanarek started FIGHT because he was unhappy with the weapons defenses of krav maga so he began to adapt them to the special forces training he rec'd in the Israeli military and in conjunction with people who were still serving in various special forces organizations in Israel and had studied techniques such as Lotar, Kapap, and survival hisardut, so the FIGHT system is a combination of all these arts. As for there being no such thing as Israeli Tactical Knife Fighting, you might want to either check out his DVD set on that topic, go to his training center in Florida, or attend one of his seminars to see what it's all about--the guy knows how to use a knife.
If you have issues with specific FIGHT techniques then that's cool--I know a lot of martial artists take issue with the "point of reference" tactic that FIGHT employs, and that's a valid criticism. I often wonder how effective it would be to try to establish a point of reference with a skilled fighter, or someone who's substantially bigger than I am, but that's why I also cross-train in kickboxing and BJJ. We should all be able to agree that there's no such thing as the "be-all-and-end-all" of martial arts systems, and FIGHT is no exception. But as far as reality-based self defense systems go, I think FIGHT is as good as they get--it's going to teach you how to respond to specific life-threatening attacks and, yes, it also offers a full range of combatives and defenses for unarmed fighting.
People who don't practice a specific art/system are always going to favor the art or system that they do practice, otherwise why would they be practicing it? But let's not kid ourselves that just because we practice a certain art that it's superior to all others--I don't feel that way about FIGHT or anything else I've trained in. When it comes right down to it, isn't it really about making damn sure you have a SOLID base in the basic skills of punching, kicking, footwork, situational awareness, ground survival, etc. than worrying about how many belts your instructor has or how much money he's making because he happens to be a savvy marketer?





todd, I apprectiate your enthousiasm. two points from my persepctive

1. what rubs me a little about these type of things is the attempt to link it with israel. here you have a guy who has some experience with an israeli style, as well as a whole lot more experience with various far eastern styles, and a brazilian style. how come nobody ever comes out and says "I loved krav, but I didn't think it had everything that I thought was needed in a martial art, so I added material from several other martial arts, and now I think this is a much better system"?

2. again, as of 15 years ago or so, the israeli military didn't teach knife fighting. I strongly suspect they haven't started in the meantime. I have no doubt that mike Kanarek knows how to use a knife, maybe he is fantastic with a knife. he didn't learn it in the israeli army, unless he did 40 or 50 years ago (using the british wwii knife fighting system) or he did in the past 15 years, which I am sceptical. so I would be much more comfortable if he said "I love krav, but the knife fighting was minimal, so I needed to spupliment it with techniques that I added from south east asian styles." this would appear much more straight forward to me.

anyway, peace

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#155985 - 10/05/05 12:33 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Yeah, a lot of people take issue with FIGHT's claims to association with the Israeli Special Forces and you obviously know more about their knife fighting history than I do. I can't claim to know much about the history of the IDF or the various special forces units that Mike Kanarek was/is associated with. I do know that during Kanarek's instructor certification seminars he talks about using a knife for "crowd control" and for taking out enemy combatants quietly, but where he learned those techniques and whether there is such a thing as "Israeli Tactical Knife Fighting" outside the FIGHT system, I honestly have no idea. Point taken.

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#155986 - 10/05/05 12:52 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
see, what I can tell you, that I know beyond a fraction of a doubt, that under no circomstances would a person in the employ of the israeli security forces use a knife for crowd control - this is such a sensitive point that I think that there is no room for doubt. the IDF would much rather a soldier club a person to death than cut his hand - just from a PR and damage control perspective. soldiers are tought to use sticks, but not knives, and a stick is much better for crowd control, I believe.

concerning "taking out an enemy quietly" this is also not done. the standard procedure is to get real close and shoot him with a silenced firearm. or at least it was 15 years ago. I can't imagine it has changed.

I find that a lot of these teachers and schools do everything that they can to show that they were related to the IDF special forces, and that just annoys me.

and to be perfectly clear on this - I was in the IDF, in a unit that would be considered special forces. I have no doubt that Mike K is both a much better martial artist than I am, and a better teacher. I have no doubt that he could kick my ass, and he is probrbly both better looking and a nicer guy, for all I know. His way of controling crowds and of taking out enemies quietly might be much better than the one I learned a long time ago. but for what every reason he is telling people that the things he is teaching were developed in a "lab" that I know pretty well, I and have every reason to believe that these techniques were not developed there. that is my only point.

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#155987 - 10/05/05 02:05 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
I believe that under no circumstances would a knife be used for crowd control. I would imagine it is still taught for silently killing a sentry. How often one genuinely ends up in that position is a different story.
I have seen the FIGHT tapes and Mike is definitely proficient with a knife. He is probably as good unarmed. My issue with FIGHT or any system is the impression that strength and size are irrelevant. That is pure bs. Maybe at a Master level(and even then I doubt it) but the average guy trying to learn off of video is going to get himself killed. There is a reason for weight divisions in all contact fight disciplines. The FIGHT tapes also contain techniques that are flawed from a real conflict perspective. All arts have this problem to some degree or another. The fact is unless you roll and can get it on an unwilling person you will never know if it works. Alot of the RBSD stuff is supposedly "so deadly" they can never actually do it. So how do they know if it works? I can stick my finger in your eye and kick you in the balls and know the effect it will have but can I land that in the first place.
By the way thanks for backing up my POR issue. I am having that disagreement a lot these days.

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#155988 - 10/05/05 02:06 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Like I said, you'd know about the IDF since you were in it. Enough said. And, yeah, regardless of what anyone thinks about Mike Kanarek's FIGHT system they're hopefully willing to recognize that the guy has some serious skills and is a good instructor. Plus, how can you knock a guy for being a savvy marketer? I see too many of my former martial arts instructors struggling to make ends meet with their schools, so it's a challenging business and if you can't market yourself effectively you're not going to excel. That said, I don't agree with schools that make false claims about their systems/arts but I don't think this is what Kanarek is doing. I suspect that there's more going on here than either you or I understand. I don't know enough about Kanarek's military experience to know what's fact and what's fiction but my point was that I think his FIGHT system is a worthy one to train in. Thanks for your comments globetrotter (and Mike Kanarek is also a lot better martial artist than I'll ever be...but I'm better looking! )

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#155989 - 10/05/05 03:25 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fightknight]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
At the instructor training seminar that my MA instructor attended (yes, this is second-hand information so take it for what it's worth) Mike Kanarek talked about a "crowd control" tactic that members of his unit, the Golani Brigade, would employ: in a crowd of angry Palestinians where the situation was about to turn violent one Golani Brigade member would work his way into the middle of the crowd and drive a fixed blade knife into the soft tissue between a person's collar bone and neck. Kanarek apparently said that the sight of a Palestinian with a knife sticking out the side of their neck and dying in the street caused a "parting of the waters" in the crowd and was highly effective in getting the angry crowd to disperse. Again, as to the truth of this statement, I have no idea.
I agree that the whole "size is irrelevant" claim is suspect, esp. when other MA instructors of mine have said things like, "the two most important attributes in a street fight are power and aggressiveness". Granted, smaller people can generate a lot of power and it's been my experience that training with a larger, more muscular partner doesn't necessarily mean that person can generate a powerful punch or kick but, all things being equal, you gotta think a larger, stronger person has the advantage in a "real fight." Though there are probably exceptions--I wish I could see a boxing match, for example, that pitted a super-fast light weight against a powerful but arguably slower heavyweight. Woe to the light weight if one of the heavyweight's punches really landed though!
And, as for the "deadliness" of RBDS, Kanarek is actually pretty frank about this business of learning "anti-grappling" techniques and other nonesense. He says, "what makes you think that you can learn a few techniques like eye gouging or ball kicking but a trained grappler can't?" Get real, the only way to defend yourself on the ground is to train with experienced grapplers. All your "special techniques" go out the window if some former high school wrestler can dominate you positionally and rain down a shower of punches on your butt.
I also have questions about Kanarek's insistence that all his Haganah students carry knives. He says that the knife is the great equalizer on the street and that size and strength become irrelevant when the smaller person deploys a knife and knows how to use it. Sounds awfully sketchy to me, esp. in terms of the legal issues it raises. But, if someone prison-pumped criminal threatened my life I guess I'd be happy to have a tactical folder with serrated edge ready to even things up a bit.
Lastly, I also agree with FightKnight that all systems have shortcomings esp. in the realm of knife and gun defenses--these are scary scenarios and you'd have to execute the techniques flawlessly to avoid getting wounded or killed, and the gun and knife defenses that I've trained in a variety of arts: kali, krav maga, and FIGHT aren't the easiest things in the world to execute. I just hope I never have to try to disarm some idiot with a gun or knife.
Cheers.

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#155990 - 10/06/05 10:31 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
I find the tendency toward eye gouging, etc somewhat unrealistic. If all you are training for is a home invasion or someone sticking a gun in your ear then maybe. Or in a female's case where it is absolutely an all bets are off situation because attacks on women are never testosterone bravado they are going to rape or kill you. But if your only means of defense is an eye gouge or some equally extreme act of violence you are going to spend time in jail. You can't blind a guy in a barfight or parking spot dispute and expect that to sail in court. Also, I think a lot of people no matter how often they train it will freeze up when the thought of actually blinding a guy for life enters their brain. That is a big move. Anyone who can do it without a twinge of conscience already is in prison or should be.
Also, all these RBSD guys trash MMA. Why do they think they can kick a guys ass out of the ring when they can't touch the guy in it? Matt Thornton's SBGI site has some awesome articles on this. Check it out. In regards to FIGHT I have seen the dvd's and I understand some of it. Some of it just plain won't work. Especially if you are trying to learn it off the dvd and not training in a class where you roll. Like any dvd. Until you feel it and see what it's like to come up against a resisting opponent you are clueless.

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#155991 - 10/06/05 12:31 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
York is only about 45 min away from me, so I may have to drive out and see for myself.

_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#155992 - 10/06/05 01:53 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

At the instructor training seminar that my MA instructor attended (yes, this is second-hand information so take it for what it's worth) Mike Kanarek talked about a "crowd control" tactic that members of his unit, the Golani Brigade, would employ: in a crowd of angry Palestinians where the situation was about to turn violent one Golani Brigade member would work his way into the middle of the crowd and drive a fixed blade knife into the soft tissue between a person's collar bone and neck. Kanarek apparently said that the sight of a Palestinian with a knife sticking out the side of their neck and dying in the street caused a "parting of the waters" in the crowd and was highly effective in getting the angry crowd to disperse. Again, as to the truth of this statement, I have no idea.
I agree that the whole "size is irrelevant" claim is suspect, esp. when other MA instructors of mine have said things like, "the two most important attributes in a street fight are power and aggressiveness". Granted, smaller people can generate a lot of power and it's been my experience that training with a larger, more muscular partner doesn't necessarily mean that person can generate a powerful punch or kick but, all things being equal, you gotta think a larger, stronger person has the advantage in a "real fight." Though there are probably exceptions--I wish I could see a boxing match, for example, that pitted a super-fast light weight against a powerful but arguably slower heavyweight. Woe to the light weight if one of the heavyweight's punches really landed though!
And, as for the "deadliness" of RBDS, Kanarek is actually pretty frank about this business of learning "anti-grappling" techniques and other nonesense. He says, "what makes you think that you can learn a few techniques like eye gouging or ball kicking but a trained grappler can't?" Get real, the only way to defend yourself on the ground is to train with experienced grapplers. All your "special techniques" go out the window if some former high school wrestler can dominate you positionally and rain down a shower of punches on your butt.
I also have questions about Kanarek's insistence that all his Haganah students carry knives. He says that the knife is the great equalizer on the street and that size and strength become irrelevant when the smaller person deploys a knife and knows how to use it. Sounds awfully sketchy to me, esp. in terms of the legal issues it raises. But, if someone prison-pumped criminal threatened my life I guess I'd be happy to have a tactical folder with serrated edge ready to even things up a bit.
Lastly, I also agree with FightKnight that all systems have shortcomings esp. in the realm of knife and gun defenses--these are scary scenarios and you'd have to execute the techniques flawlessly to avoid getting wounded or killed, and the gun and knife defenses that I've trained in a variety of arts: kali, krav maga, and FIGHT aren't the easiest things in the world to execute. I just hope I never have to try to disarm some idiot with a gun or knife.
Cheers.





tod,

sorry to beat this to death - maybe, that is an intersting story.... guys from the golani brigade were pretty insane, maybe... hard to say. IF you said that this was part of a story that started with "I had this sargeant who was so F***ing crazy, one time..." I would believe it. I find it really hard to believe that this was tought as a standard operating procedure. I will tell you comes to mind right away

1. you would never have a situation with israeli soldiers surrounded by a crowd of palestinians, without some firearms in the hands of the israelis. in the second intifadah, you would never have a situation without all the soliders armed - in the first, we used to sometimes have a situation where 2 or 4 would have rifles, and 10 or so would just have sticks to run quickly, but in the second intafadah that didnt happen. if sticking a knife in somebodies neck parts a crowd- turning somebodies head into a fine mist of blood and brain matter with an assult rifle from close range does a great job.

2. anytime a palestinian is stabbed by an israeli, or this is suspected, it requires a military police inquiry - because of fears that soldiers would torture prisoners. so, would it be better to shoot somebody, club them, or stab them, when only one gets you an investigation?

3. occording to the rules, even if you think that a situation is going to get violent, you don't use leathal force first - typically what would happen would be that a line of soldiers would confront the pals with night sticks and shields, and push them back. if there was no threat - you shouldn't stob someobody, if there was a threat, you shoot them.


again, sorry to beat this dead horse, it just happens to be something that I know about, and it annoys me to read about this kind of thing.

look at it this way - over a 10 or 20 year period, IDF soldiers probrably had as many clashes using night sticks as the NYPD did. how come nobody ever advertises that aspect of krav maga? the knife thing is romantic, but false. you see my point?


Edited by globetrotter (10/06/05 02:04 PM)

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#155993 - 10/06/05 02:36 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fightknight]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
I agree with you fightknight--anyone who tells you that you don't need to train kickboxing, grappling, or some other form of standup and ground fighting in order to be able to defend yourself is setting you up for a serious ass-whooping. None of my krav maga instructors did this--they stressed how important it is to cross-train and to spar. Learn to punch and kick properly, learn basic footwork, defenses, evasive moves, learn some good combinations, and defintely fight dirty if it's a self-defense situation. So, I can't say that in my experience "all RBSD guys trash traditional martial arts". I just haven't seen that. A lot of non-traditional martial artists wonder about MAs that have you keep you hands low, or that focus a lot on katas and don't do any full-contact or near-full-contact sparring, or which don't incorporate stress drills and multiple attack scenarios, but all the smart people I've worked with in krav understand that a good martial artist will gain something from whatever MA he or she trains. Hell, the people who came to krav maga with backgrounds in another art were always at a distinct advantage over beginners like me. People can bash TKD all they want but those people can usually throw a decent kick and punch--sure, there are always exceptions (there are some McDojos out there after all) but I was always jealous of the people who were belted in another art. Again, what I like best about krav maga and haganah is that they're open systems and they do their best to incorporate new techniques and modify old ones as they see fit. Both my krav instructors were very knowledgeable martial artists from both a traditional and non-traditional perspective and I believe that can only help their students in the long run. Too much bashing goes on from all sides--everyone wants to think their art is the be-all-and-end-all, but it's just not true. My approach has been to pick a "core" art and then cross-train to supplement that core. It's the individual, not the art, that matters.

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#155994 - 10/06/05 02:46 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: RangerG]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Come on down RangerG! FIGHT classes are Mon and Wed from 7:30 to about 9:00 and we have open gym on Fridays from 6:00 to 7:30 where we've lately been training BJJ. About 45 mins of working basic techniques and 30 - 45 mins of rolling. I probably won't be at the Mon/Wed class for the next several weeks because I'm working toward an instructor certification in BJJ. We're having a seminar with Dave Meyer on Sat., Nov. 13th, at which I and my FIGHT instructor hope to get certified to teach the first two levels of the BJJ blue belt curriculum (I'm sure my FIGHT instructor will pass but I'm going to have to work my butt off!) Cheers. Todd

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#155995 - 10/06/05 02:53 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Again, you'd know better than I what happens in the IDF. I was just relaying a story that Kanarek told my instructor when he went through FIGHT instructor training. And bear in mind that Kanarek isn't saying that Israeli Tactical Knife Fighting is part of krav maga - he's saying it's a part of his Haganah system which, from the points you've made, sounds like Kanarek has taken some aspects of IDF training in LOTAR, KAPAP, survival hisardut, and krav maga, and added liberally to them. The whole knife fighting thing scares the hell out of me frankly, and like I said I have reservations about pulling a knife on someone since most criminals and street punks carry guns now - I think I'd have to be in dire straights before I'd use a knife for self defense, but I guess that's the whole point - don't deploy it unless you're prepared to use it. The haganah system also has a tactical shooting element to it but I suspect that's reserved for military and law enforcement, though you could probably take that course if you were an advanced haganah practitioner. Good discussion globetrotter; I'm learning a lot here, thanks.

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#155996 - 10/06/05 03:17 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
ok, correct me if i'm wrong, globetrotter -
kapap, lotar, "haganah" (isn't that a branch of the idf not an MA???), krav maga = ALL THE SAME THING! or so i've been told.
and since when did firearms become part of a MA system? if shooting is an MA, it is it's own MA. there is a right way to fire an ak47, whether you're in krav, wushu or ballet. given the chance, i would totally give FIGHT a try - but after looking at it's web content again and again, i don't see much difference in it from krav, other than the fact that they like to wear more camo.

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#155997 - 10/06/05 03:58 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

ok, correct me if i'm wrong, globetrotter -
kapap, lotar, "haganah" (isn't that a branch of the idf not an MA???), krav maga = ALL THE SAME THING! or so i've been told.
and since when did firearms become part of a MA system? if shooting is an MA, it is it's own MA. there is a right way to fire an ak47, whether you're in krav, wushu or ballet. given the chance, i would totally give FIGHT a try - but after looking at it's web content again and again, i don't see much difference in it from krav, other than the fact that they like to wear more camo.





again, this might be a very good group of guys, and a very effective system, I don't know, but their marketing does rub me the wrong way.

haganah is "defense" in hebrew. in the early days of israel, it was a militia. hagana brings an image of "minuteman" in america.

lotar comes from the letters for "fighting terror" - the course that scouts and special forces take for close combat fighting is called "lotar".

kapap - no idea

but I feel that they have taken terms that have an assosiation and used them to promote their systems.

in terms of the shooting - these guys seem to have taken skils they learned in the IDF for shooting and now they teach them to civillians who don't realy need it for money.

anyway, peace y'all

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#155998 - 10/07/05 10:16 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
According to the FIGHT training manual:
"The Haganah self-defense system is primarily a merger of the two official marital arts of Israel, Krav Maga and Hisardut, added military tactics taught in KAPAP and LOTAR and other hand-to-hand and armed fighting techniques used by Israeli special forces operatives in extremely hostile sutiations."
"KAPAP is a Hebrew acronym for 'Face to Face Combat', what is referred to in the U.S. as 'Hand to Hand Combat'."

"LOTAR is the Hebrew combinatin of two words 'Lochama and Terror which directly translate to anti-terrorism warfare."

Mike Kanarek uses the word "Haganah" in honor of his father, Emil Kanarek, who served in the 'Palmach Brigades' in one of the 'Haganah' units during the Israeli War of Independence in 1948.

I notice a lot of concern over Kanarek's use of the term "Haganah"; it seems to offend some Israelis but I'm not really sure why, likely because I'm not an Israeli and don't understand the historical/cultural signifiance of these terms.

The comment that "Haganah looks a lot like krav but with more camo" cracks me up! That's funny! No one in our school wears camo, but one new guy showed up in camo pants and got so overheated and exhausted from wearing those heavy pants that he quit during the middle of the workout and never came back! I agree though, the camo looks a little silly (but don't tell Mike Kanarek I said that )

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#155999 - 10/07/05 10:28 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
Just want to clarify that I am not suggesting FIGHT only trains eye gouging etc. It was more a reference to other RBSD systems and/or practitioners who claim all this stuff they can't show you or do because it is too deadly. Also, many people on forums whose answer to everything is "I would just eye gouge him and F%^$ him up.". Ya, sure you would. It's a little more complicated.
I have seen the FIGHT dvd's and was not overly impressed by them. The classes from what I understand are quite different than the dvd's. Much more involved and containing important info lacking on the tapes.Kanarek from all I have heard is pretty damn good at what he does although that doesn't mean the system he is marketing is the be all and end all as it's described.
My big problem as I mentioned before is Haganah is something he made up. There is nothing wrong with that but it is not marketed that way. Krav with some changes,, for better or worse. I never questioned his military background but some questions have been raised on this forum. At least regarding some of the stories he tells. Then again anything is possible in that insane part of the world.
Also, I don't think that if you had became the world's most deadly fighting machine because of the training you received in the military you would need to train in all these other arts as Kanarek, Cucci(SEALS), etc all have. Wouldn't you be confident in your hand to hand abilities if the military was the ultimate in h2h training?

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#156000 - 10/07/05 10:44 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

I notice a lot of concern over Kanarek's use of the term "Haganah"; it seems to offend some Israelis but I'm not really sure why, likely because I'm not an Israeli and don't understand the historical/cultural signifiance of these terms.


I am not sure if concern is the right word - its sort of like somebody starting a school in the US and calling it "green berets dojo". you would wonder what his assosiation was with the green berets, if you were a green beret, you would wonder what gave him the right to use your name, it would suggest that he had leaned his arts in the greem berets, etc.

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#156001 - 10/07/05 12:40 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
That's an interesting analogy globetrotter. I understand your objection to Mike Kanarek's use of "Haganah" to describe his system stems from your skepticism over whether he learned these techniques like tactical knife fighting in the Israeli Special Forces. I think that's a valid point and one that I'm in no way qualified to argue against! If he's using this and other terms merely as a marketing ploy then that's a shame but I have no idea where the truth lies here.

It seems like we're at an impasse as far as the origins of Kanarek's Haganah system - he claims it stems from his Israeli Special Forces training and you and others I've seen on Internet Forums doubt that some of his techniques are taught to the Israeli SF. So be it. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone that I know what Kanarek's experience in the IDF was. Don't know nothing 'bout it!

I frankly don't really care whether Haganah is an "authentic" Israeli Special Forces self defense system. I like the system, it's fun to train and it seems like it would work - fortunately, I've never been tested in the street and I'd like to keep it that way.

The main reason I'm training in Haganah right now and not krav maga is that my school recently switched from the latter to the former. I trust my instructor when he says he thinks Haganah is a better system because it's taught in 3 to 4 month cycles where you learn the complete range of techniques in those 3-4 months and then cycle through them again, so that you see the complete curriculum 3 or 4 times a year. I think it's good to revisit all the techniques several times a year instead of training them at white belt level and never seeing them again.

One of the objections he and some of the krav students had was that you don't get to gun defenses, for example, until blue belt level, although both my krav instructors jumped ahead and taught some gun defenses in the earlier levels like orange and green.

And, I think my current instructor had some issues with what the Krav Maga organization was providing him in exchange for the fairly steep licensing fees they charged him every month.

I realize this is way off topic here but I'm addressing some other posts in the krav forum to save time.

For example, it often took 6 months for my school to receive our certificates from the NTC in LA (I've never rec'd any of my certificates from my belt tests in Seattle). And, aside from linking to his school on the kravmaga website, my instructor rec'd no help whatsoever with marketing, arranging seminiars, merchandising, whatever.

FIGHT, on the other hand, offers its DVDs and training manuals at a discounted rate to MA schools so it can sell them at a reasonable profit and so students will have those materials to supplement their training. That's part of the deal an MA school gets when it signs up for the FIGHT program.

Lastly, for a self defense system that claims to be easy to learn and based on one's instinctive reactions, krav contains some 'fancy' techniques ('fancy' being a relative term based on one's athletic ability) such as hook kicks (which I could never do with any effectiveness) and crescent kicks (which I would never try to pull off in a streetfight). FIGHT has the groin kick, kick to the thigh/knee (low round-house), front kick, rear kick, side kick). That's it.

And I know my instructor prefers the weapons defenses taught in FIGHT over some of the techniques taught in krav maga. Gun threat defenese high (head) for example is significantly different in FIGHT and is designed to keep the gun from discharging into someone standing to the side of the person doing the disarm; unlike krav maga which directs the gun to the side and into the line of fire of anybody unlucky enough to be standing to the side of the defender.

FIGHT also eliminates a lot of the "if he attacks you with the left hand or from the weak side then you do this other defense". Most FIGHT defenses employ ONE technique regardless of what hand the attacker is using or what direction he's attacking you from. The punch defense is a good example - whether you're defending against a right or left punch the defense is always to step to "11 o'clock", out of the line of attack and to simultaneously counter with a shot to the ribs, and then follow up with FIGHT's "point of reference" attacks (a much-maligned concept from what I understand - I'm keeping an open mind for now because any technique, whether it's FIGHT's "point of reference" techniques or a muay thai clinch, is only as good as the person employing it -- have a weak clinch? Then your opponent is going to get out of it and attack you. Have a weak "point of reference" follow-up? Then the opponent is going to escape and attack you; that's just the way it is.)

There are other variations that I'm learning. I don't know them all yet because I'm just finishing up my first rotation in FIGHT and there are classes I've missed and will have to wait until the next time they come around in the rotation.

Gotta go earn some money now folks! I gotta say though, this is a great forum; I usu. hate Internet MA forums because they're full of idiots threatening to kick each other's asses but most people on this forum seem to be genuinely interested in finding out about arts they don't understand, or in discussing the philosophies and techniques of MAs. I attribute that to a good moderator! Cheers.

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#156002 - 10/07/05 01:19 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
todd, the important thing is that this gives you what you are looking for. I study kung fu at a mcdojo at this stage of my life - probrably the last place I would want to be. why? because it is a 3 minute walk from my house, and it has classes from monring till night 5 days a week, it is convenient. so I go and enjoy the open gym sessions, and get what I can out of what I can enjoy.

fight might be an excellent art, and krav may be a rip off in the states, I don't know. I contributed just what I know.

anyway, injoy and good luck

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#156003 - 10/07/05 02:29 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Amen globetrotter. Well said. I feel your pain about a lack of good martial arts schools close by. I moved from Seattle where there was nearly every MA under the sun and classes offered day and night, to York PA where I have to drive 40 minutes to a good school, and there are NO BJJ schools close by! Convenience is key when you get to be an old man like me, so much so that I went to a kenpo class the other day 'cause it's close to my house and offers a day class 3x a week. Turns out, it looks like a good school - no katas, very nice instructor and students, and they seem to work on sparring in every class--good, controlled sparring where the instructor gives you individual feedback on what you're doing, or not doing. So, if I've learned anything in my relatively brief experience in the martial arts it's to keep an open mind. A good martial artist can get something good out of whatever MA he or she trains.
Cheers to you sir.
Todd

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#156004 - 10/08/05 02:33 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
Fightknight Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 28
I will take your word that the FIGHT manual says that. I think his site is a little more sketchy. The selling point of FIGHT is certainly the easiness and the 1 or 2 moves to POR from any position. I just find some of the techniques do not work at all and that if you are in the POR(dvd's) they offer you nothing if that is defended or slipped from. Except to start over and go back to the POR again.
From what I have seen on the dvd's though I am mystified why people in any more formidable art would gravitate towards it. It is severely lacking in some areas. It can I think maybe add a technique to an arsenal but if I were already a MMA with any skills I really wouldn't see the point of it.
I really believe the schools that add it are doing so more to make money than to offer an insurmountable defense system. I would take BJJ, Sambo, Judo, etc and put them up against any of these FIGHT guys and I doubt the FIGHT guys would stand a chance. Again though I can only commment from the dvd experience. No classes to check out where I am.
In regards to Kanarek, he seems to be the real deal. He has a rotten temper though and does not like to be criticized.

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#156005 - 10/10/05 01:32 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: Fightknight]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
I understand your skepticism fightknight. One of the funniest things to me is that "FIGHT" stands for "Fierce Israeli Guerilla Hand-to-Hand Tactics!" Ummmm, yeah. But like I said, I trust my instructor that FIGHT is a good RBSD system.

I also have some skepticism with regard to the "points of reference" and what you do if you can't get there or if you can't maintain the POR. That's why I do my best, with limited time, energy, and resources, to cross-train in standup and ground fighting, and I try to spar as much as possible. I wouldn't consider someone who only trained in FIGHT, krav maga, or another RBSD system who didn't also know how to at least box and had some basic ground skills to be able to defend themselves effectively in street fight or assault. A good RBSD system should teach you these basics but, yeah, good luck against an attacker who is a hardcore mixed martial artist. You'd better hope you have a weapon and know how to use it. Again, Kanarek is the first to tell you that you should cross-train--he does. He's a full-contact kickboxer and has a blue belt in BJJ. If I had my way, I'd be training in an MMA type gym that also offered krav maga because I think you need some reality-based training that teaches you how to deal with a knife or gun attack, and I still think krav maga and FIGHT are two of the best RBSD systems out there.

I'd be interested in other areas where you feel FIGHT is seriously lacking. As I've mentioned before, I haven't even finished my first rotation of the 4-month cycle so I haven't seen all the techniques, and I miss class more than I should since I'm trying to work on my BJJ right now (damn, it is HARD to train BJJ in York, PA!!! Where are all the BJJ-ers around here? Oh yeah, they're in Philly and Baltimore).

Party on.
Todd

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#156006 - 10/10/05 02:54 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
you're totally on to something there, todd. it's too bad your schools are limited. here in chicago, i am lucky enough to attend a school where i primarily take krav and bjj along with kali, muay thai, wushu and TAI CHI! the idea is that SOME tradition is good, but only enough to make you a well rounded fighter - not so much to hinder the pursuit of learning practical self defense. however, given your limitations it seems very fortunate that you have a specialized system like FIGHT around. mcsensei or not, kanarek is doing people a great service in offering them something more than cookie-cutter karate or tkd in areas that wouldn't have them otherwise. happy training.
btw - let me know if FIGHT is ever doing a seminar in chicago. i'd like to at least check it out for a day.

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#156007 - 10/11/05 10:54 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Thanks ShikataGaNai,
I moved to PA from Seattle where you can train just about any martial art you want. Because of all the great schools there I switched from krav maga after a year and a half and trained JKD and BJJ for another year and a half before moving to York, PA. I also tried out a silat class and a wing chung (sp?) class, and was able to train at a boxing gym that was literally 4 blocks from my house. <sigh> Aside from the god-awful traffic and the exorbitant real estate prices there, I REALLY miss Seattle. I'd have to start a new thread to list all the things I miss about that city, and you'd kick me off the forum for boring everybody to death.
Cheers.
Todd

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#156008 - 10/11/05 04:13 PM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: ToddR]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Yea but your close the the holy grail of bikers like me.. The Harley Factory

Good news is I am only about an hour East of ya..
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#156009 - 10/12/05 08:55 AM Re: A new version of Krav? [Re: RangerG]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Yep, that and the York Barbell company almost make up for the lack of MA schools!


Edited by ToddR (10/12/05 10:35 AM)

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