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#155818 - 06/14/05 06:05 PM Tai Chi training
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Out of the styles I've learned, Tai Chi is supposed to be the most efficient/powerful/etc. one when it comes to martial applications. Yet, it is the style I know how to use least! I mean, in class, we stress breathing, we stress correct form and technique, balance and all that good stuff. The instructor shows us applications every now and then. But he doesn't let us try them. I asked him about teaching pushing hands once, he says MAYBE... but if he does teach, it'll come later on. I also know tai chi doesn't spar.

I've also seen a lot of older students who've been doing it forever... but who just don't seem like they could handle thesmelves in terms of self defense.

My question is... how does one go about learning how to use tai chi? Or is it really that practicioners of tai chi completely changed their philosophy, and gave up on teaching the martial side? (as in, learn tai chi for health benefits, chi, balance, technqiue.... but let those rub off on some other style you train in that does care for applications/sparring?)

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#155819 - 06/14/05 09:36 PM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: 18lohans]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
Starts with push hands, goes on to sparring.
Yes, there is sparring in Tai Chi.
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#155820 - 06/15/05 05:04 AM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: nekogami13 V2.0]
Rico Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 28
Tai Chi has lost whatever used to make it great, there is no supreame ultimate fist anymore. Don't let people tell you that Tai Chi is the best MA out there just because it had a reputation for being the best along time ago.

Many teachers now have NO idea how to fight yet they teach Tai Chi and promise all the secrets in time... but they will never deliver.

Rico.

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#155821 - 06/15/05 08:32 AM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: Rico]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Rico, I take it you have studied Tai Chi in depth then?
Art/style bashing is against forum rules, so I'm expecting to hear of your experience in Tai Chi.

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#155822 - 06/15/05 09:12 AM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: 18lohans]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
There is extensive pushing hands, application of technique, power pushing and wall training (throwing your partner to 'breakfall' against a wall') in Yang tai chi. I teach it to a variety of bodyguards, doormen and police self defence instructors who verify it's effectiveness.

Pushing hands with the Yang family is considered 'play' and is freestyle and a very effective form of 'sparring'.
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supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#155823 - 06/15/05 02:30 PM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: 18lohans]
Talimas Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/05
Posts: 131
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I believe Tai Chi is one of those styles in which you really have to search for a MA type school for it. Most of the Tai Chi schools I have found in my area weigh very heavily on the Health benefits leaving combat techniques either completely out of it or very minimal at best. I sincerely believe that their are still Tai Chi schools out there that can be used by themselves as very effective self defense sets, just I have not yet been able to find one. If anyone here knows of a good one that is located in either Cleveland or nationally across the US I would also be very interested in knowing the name of it. I have been searching for one for some time now, being dissapointed in what I have seen. This may be partially my lack of commitment since I am not ready to swtich the majority of my time to another style, but any help from more informed individuals is always welcomed.
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#155824 - 06/15/05 05:49 PM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: Talimas]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
After 10 years of TKD, I recently took up Chen Tai Chi. My Sifu also teaches White Crane Kung Fu. He keeps pointing out possible applications. I find that my biggest problem is using TKD style hand movements. When I am corrected i realise how much more subtle and effective a TC technique could be. For instance, I think of blocking TKD style, with my fore-arm, the TC allows me to consider my whole arm and body. A revelation. Bloody knackering too!
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#155825 - 06/19/05 01:45 AM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Rico Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 28
To Bushi

Your "expecting" to here of my experience in Tai Chi?

First off I wasnt bashing Tai Chi, just the way its taught in most schools these days. Plus your post came off as aggro towards me which is not cool.

Ive studied in China under several Tai Chi teachers and I love it but in my "experience" its not the effect art it used to be.

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#155826 - 06/19/05 05:34 AM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: Rico]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
And Rico, the tone of your post came off as condescending to Tai Chi practitioners. Now that I know you've had more than brief contact with Tai Chi, I understand that much of what you've seen elsewhere doesn't look very martial to you any more.

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#155827 - 06/19/05 04:55 PM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: Rico]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Quote:

from Rico: Ive studied in China under several Tai Chi teachers and I love it but in my "experience" its not the effect art it used to be.




Who did you study under and for how long? I'm not questioning your integrity or your post but would like to determine how far you actually got. The fighting power of tai chi is not necessarily in the application of technique (although that has great value) but the deeper alchemy that takes place within the mind and body through the exercises, forms and push hands. It develops the ability to respond by yeilding, blending, sticking, following, redirecting and disabling or negating or with instant power if necessary, through the development of alignment, softening, power sourcing and mental intent.

There is a lot of 'health' tai chi about and even the martial will begin that way, but the martial is out there if you look hard enough and train long enough with the right instructors.

Training in China does mean with the best, most good instructors left with the revolution and went to Hong Kong, Maylasia, Singapore and so on. However, even the parks in Hong Kong are now full of some old people doing health tai chi, more of them doing ballroom dancing - and all the young people jogging with walkmans on or weight lifting in the gyms.
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supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#155828 - 06/19/05 08:25 PM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: Bossman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Bear in mind that the Chinese are notorious for withholding vital information - even amongst themselves.

What good is martial application of technique if you don't have the basics that Bossman has already mentioned? Taiji is also a very subtle art (particularly small frame), requiring great sensitivity to your opponent's energy pathways and body alignment. If you do not have the foundational mechanics, how can you ever know it to be anything other than ineffective?

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#155829 - 06/20/05 06:01 PM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: eyrie]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
There aren't enough good schools/teachers out there who are qualified to teach the true martial side of Taiji. But from mym experience, Taiji is a base to build on, or to add to a base for martial arts. Because of it, fighting, or even using specific applications becomes almost meaningless because you can knock, or throw people over so easily. All the basic things, although push hands is also something you need (weird he doesn't teach it), that you are doing, are all your going to need in the future.

Do your rsearch if you want to learn more apps etc.
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Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

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#155830 - 06/21/05 02:59 AM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: BaguaMonk]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I think there are a couple of Tai Chi instructors in my area, and I might have to look into it as a compromise between not aggravating current problems and staying in MA.
The health type Tai Chi is pretty much what I'm stuck with though.

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#155831 - 06/22/05 10:53 AM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Of course, some styles like Taoist Tai Chi stress that they are not to be used for SD and it is taught only for health. It was still useful doing it, as it taught me new ways to move my body.This was useful when I finally found a Chen sifu.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#155832 - 06/23/05 06:50 PM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: Bossman]
Longduckdong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 7
My school trains in Chen style T'ai Chi and it is equivalent to very high level Kung Fu. It can be excellent for self defense after several years of development. In fact we think of our training this way. Where you begin training in T'ai Chi is where you should end up in Kung Fu and where you begin in Kung Fu you should end in T'ai Chi. Sorry if that's cryptic but I'm sure long time practitioners will understand.

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#155833 - 06/29/05 08:18 PM Re: Tai Chi training [Re: eyrie]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
I also train in Chen Taiji, although its been a few months for me. The best thing about Taiji, is it teaches you how to move your body the right, and natural way, as well as being able to generate alot of power with minimum effort.
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Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

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