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#155524 - 06/14/05 11:10 AM Instructors sparring
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
My Shihan told me the other day that it is time that I stop sparring with the class and lower black belts. He said there is a point in your life and training that an instructor must seperate himself from the students. He said that it creates more of a mistique about yourself and if I needed to spare that he and I or the other higher ranking BB could get together and work out on our own. New it was coming so it really wasn't a suprise. Question for instructors above fourth dan, how do you guys deal with sparring with your students? Do you spar or just teach?
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The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#155525 - 06/14/05 11:34 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
MattJ Offline
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While I am not a 4th degree, I have to say that is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. There is a 7th degree American kenpo BB on Bullshido that regularly spars people in his school and other schools.

"Mystique"? Is he worried about maintaining the "unbeatable sensei" ideal? Ridiculous. Fanning ego is the beginning of the downfall. Anyone can be beat, anytime.

If you want to spar, go spar. Find a new instructor if he has a problem with it.

Sorry if that came out disrespectful, but that really pisses me off.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#155526 - 06/14/05 11:36 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
I spar to teach. We have have an obligation to teach our students and part of that teaching is to work with them in all aspects of their training. After reaching a certain rank of 5th Dan one should have a lower rank Blackbelts spar with the students and then you still can teach both students.

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#155527 - 06/14/05 12:08 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: BulldogTKD]
MattJ Offline
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Sorry Bulldog, I disagree completely. Why should you not spar?
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#155528 - 06/14/05 12:26 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: MattJ]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I am not an instructor, but my instructor spars with us, he does the push ups with us and he sweats with us. We are not kids to have some mystical impression of him, we know he is human, and the fact that he doesnt tell us to do something that he would not do with us makes us respect him more than he can imagine.
I would actually lose respect if the instructor would not back up what he is saying.

Even when I was really young, and I did judo, my instructor back then still sparred with us (softly) and even then I appreciated his hands on approach.

The only reason an instructor would have for not sparring is because he would be afraid to lose! Only in MAs do people have that mentality. The measure of a teacher is not his a bility to whoop ass, its his ability to teach (fighting, and morals/ethics etc).

Take tennis for example, do you think the top players cant beat their coaches? Of course they can, they would wipe the floor with them, but that is not the point is it??

Of course after a certain age you cant spar for health reasons, but as far as I am concerned fear is a poor excuse.

edit: also I realise that i am not an instructor, and that its not really in my position to speak, but I hope one day to teach, even if its only my kids, but I hope to do it right.
I dont mean any disrespect to the other instructors here, but I though you might want a students opinion also


Edited by MAGr (06/14/05 12:33 PM)

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#155529 - 06/14/05 12:33 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Sparring with the higher rank black belts is a great thing to do. You can learn a lot more sparring against a higher rank than you can a lower rank (IMO). That being said, why should that rule apply only to you as a higher rank and not to the lower ranks? (not an attack on you, just on the idea)
I would rather know that my instructor can hand my ass to me than think that he has mysterious fighting powers that can destroy me, and I do. When I spar him, I'll get some good shots in, but he lets me know that I have a lot to learn and a long way to go.
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We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#155530 - 06/14/05 01:59 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: MattJ]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Quote:

Sorry Bulldog, I disagree completely. Why should you not spar?




If you have a 5th Dan in class along with jr. Blackbelts then the high rank is best utilized observing and teaching. He or she has more experience and knowledge and can pass that on much easier if they can observe the class as opposed too participating in the sparring matches. 5th Dan sparring colored belts is a waist of valuable teaching time. That higher rank is very intimating to students and they will be hindered by their thinking. But the 5th Dan sparring other Blackbelts is great, but I still feel it is more detrimental to spar colored belts then helpful.

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#155531 - 06/14/05 03:40 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: BulldogTKD]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
I think it is a good learning experiance, really good for the colored belts. They learn a multitude of things this way, not the least of which are, humility, not to be intimidated and should be able to pick up some good combos.

I understand what you are saying but I think that sparring with a much higher belt can teach you a lot.

I no longer spar with my 7th dan instructor but, that is only because he underwent hip replacement and is no longer able to move his hip that well, but until the surgery he sparred everyone and it really helped many of the lower belts to see that there is a progression and to get them over feeling intimidated.
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#155532 - 06/14/05 04:23 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: BulldogTKD]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

That higher rank is very intimating to students and they will be hindered by their thinking.




I actually think that the fact that sparring with higher grades is intimidating is a very good thing. Although its not real, sparring still gets students adernaline pumping, puts them under pressure, and they learn how to deal with it. They will have a better understanding of how they will operate once the aderline kicks. Personally, I'd want both myself and my students to experience the pressure and intimidation in the caring enviroment of the dojo, than at the hands of a thug on the street.

I also feel that new students are far better off being paired of against Black Belts when they first start sparring, than lower grades, because of the control aspects. Lower grades just don't simply know how to pull their blows, when higher grades *should*.
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#155533 - 06/14/05 04:42 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: Gavin]
BulldogTKD Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Try looking at it from a teaching point of view. If I spar with my students I can only work with and coach one person at a time. If I observe there sparing then I can work with as many as I need. I can stop two people that might be having problems or just if one is having problems and, I can give better feedback and point them in the right direction. If I can say, Joe, throw that round kick again and Tom you counter. Ok Tom, that was a great block, but instead of blocking this time try to step parry and counter with a front kick or punch, like so. Joe, throw that round kick again, at me this time! Then I demonstrate, watch, Tom and work a bit with him on his timing. If I am sparring my student I can only teach and see so much.

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#155534 - 06/14/05 04:54 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: BulldogTKD]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ofcourse, I completely agree. We do both. Sometimes watch and coach, sometimes spar and coach!
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#155535 - 06/14/05 04:57 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: MattJ]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

While I am not a 4th degree, I have to say that is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. There is a 7th degree American kenpo BB on Bullshido that regularly spars people in his school and other schools.

"Mystique"? Is he worried about maintaining the "unbeatable sensei" ideal? Ridiculous. Fanning ego is the beginning of the downfall. Anyone can be beat, anytime.

If you want to spar, go spar. Find a new instructor if he has a problem with it.

Sorry if that came out disrespectful, but that really pisses me off.




I'm with Matt on this one! That's stupid. Get in there and spar,you can observe and spar at the same time! What? Are high ranks too good? Mystique? Sounds like fear to me.
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#155536 - 06/14/05 05:03 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm a little disapointed that he told me that but I will probably have to have a sit down with him.The sparring mistique thing is a little wierd?? I love to spar and don't plan on giving it up.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#155537 - 06/14/05 05:27 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: SANCHIN31]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
SANCHIN31 wrote :
"I'm with Matt on this one! That's stupid. Get in there and spar,you can observe and spar at the same time! What? Are high ranks too good? Mystique? Sounds like fear to me."

Ok. Look at it like this SANCHIN31. In your match the other day, say your opponent was your teacher. You two are sparing and you pretty much ended in a draw. He said after, that you almost had him in an arm bar, you donít remember, an ankle lock was attempted but the technique was incorrect, correct? So if he is your instructor, for arguments sake, how did that match help you? Were you able to correct some flaws in your technique at the time? Did you know that you had a few flaws or him for that matter? Now if there were two students on the mat instead of you two, the improper application of technique could have been addressed at the time of each attempt and things could have been corrected, thatís if an instructor with more experience was watching, teaching.

The "Mystique" comment is odd but hey whatever floats his boat.

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#155538 - 06/14/05 05:38 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: BulldogTKD]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I do spar with my instructor,he is 4th dan I am 2nd. He often shows me things and corrects me when we spar,same with the 8th kyu's.
The guy wasn't my instructor,nowhere close to it.
Did you watch The Ultimate Fighter? Randy and Chuck sparred with them,they didn't just stand around and watch.They taught while they were sparring and watching.
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#155539 - 06/14/05 07:12 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: SANCHIN31]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
quite right, none said that the instructor should not watch and observe, but I was critisizing the need to create a mystique around the instructor. Its a bit strange and insecure if you ask me.

"yeah but we are not asking you are we? "

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#155540 - 06/15/05 09:39 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Now that I think about it my old Korean instructors never sparred with us. Sure they showed us how to do all the basic kicks and self defense techniques (one steps) but never did they ever put on the gloves and sparring gear and get out on the mat, never.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#155541 - 06/15/05 09:50 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
No disrespect meant, but how did you know how good the were then? (stripes on a belt don't count)
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#155542 - 06/15/05 10:13 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: JoelM]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I used to spar with my 5th black Instructor all the time. Students need to get their ass handed to them once in a while to keep them humble.

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#155543 - 06/15/05 10:54 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
sounds like political nonsense at your dojo schanne. re-evaluate the whole concept of 'appearences'.

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#155544 - 06/15/05 11:42 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: BulldogTKD]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
BulldogTKD -

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this issue, my friend. You make a good point about observation, but I am convinced people will learn more from actually sparring a high rank as opposed to just being observed by them.

Surely you will see openings, etc, that your lower BB's may not be able to take advantage of? Rather than just pointing them out, if you *show* them by doing, they usually learn much quicker, IMHO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#155545 - 06/15/05 11:46 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: SANCHIN31]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I am with MattJ and Sanchin31 on this one as well. An instructor should be able to get down on the floor and do what he is demonstrating and spar with the students.

As for using one's time wisely as Bulldog stated. If you spar with your students, perhaps the one you are aparring with may not reap all the rewards, but he will learn from the endeavor. However, the main education will be for those watching who can gain more understanding in a few minutes than having you explain for half an hour.

An instructor doesn't have to spar everyone, but should get down and diry with the "crew" once and awhile.

Mystique and misques...that is what not sparring brings up. One has to question the motives of those that will not spar students, unless age or injury is in question.

-B

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#155546 - 06/15/05 12:51 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: butterfly]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I'm always left in a constant state of mystique every time my instructor sits me on my arse! Acutally thinking back on it, I don't think that instructors should be allowed to spar!
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Gavin King
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#155547 - 06/15/05 03:53 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: Gavin]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Gavin,

Funny thing. My old instructor who was very good and had an uncanny ability of cutting one of your feet from beneath you with a kick and knocking you down...with that same foot, as you were falling, he would "nicely" cup your head in the crook of his ankle and ease your head to the ground. This was to let you know he could have smashed your noggin like a watermelon if he had wanted to.

I and one of my senpai (a former boxer) asked him how he got this good...what was the secret?

His answer: Practice . This is what showcasing technique can inspire in those under you.

-B

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#155548 - 06/15/05 04:38 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
What I think he really means is that he would like me teaching more rather than just flat out training with the regular students. Who knows what he wants, Shihans and Senseis are a strange bunch at times.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#155549 - 06/15/05 05:41 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: butterfly]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Sounds like a right cocky bar steward! This is merely backs up my arguement, instructors shouldn't spar! I really feel this backs up my statement!

Can't really speak, I've just got back from training and have just put one of our new black belts on the floor! Cheeky git though returned the favour! These new guys just don't know the rules do they!!!!
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Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#155550 - 06/16/05 10:21 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: BulldogTKD]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree that sparring with students below Black Belt is a waste of time. What are you trying to prove that you are humble enough to spar your students, that you are in shape enough to spar everyone in class. I think that Sandan mentality at Yodan and above you should spar no lower then 1st Kyu Brown belt. They have the ability to understand whats happening to them.

The only time I will spar a color belt is in private classes or if he keeps making the same mistake during class, so its not sparring its teaching. I find that fighting in slow motion so that they can see or feel the technique upsets my timing, even teaching/sparring. Sometimes the kyu level people will run into a technique that is pulled. I find rather then have to feel terrible about a color belt running into a pulled technique I'd rather coach him and let him spar a person closer to his skill level. I feel this way even when sparring 5th-10th dans that can't block or past their prime phyiscally. Now these Masters, I can learn from them on various topics. Theres so many areas to explorer in MA.

Sparring isn't about rank level or winning its about learning and communicating, and there is a point where there is very little that he/she can gained from sparring/learning with a Sandan and above. They learn that they are not fast enough, strong enough, lack timing, don't know enough, such lesson take away rather then add benifits.
After you get over 15-20 students its a waste of time 1 person sparring twenty students 1 at a time. All learning the same above lesson. Let them spar different weights, heights, speeds, attitudes, timing and distance. Near their level where they can improve upon, rather then set future dreams, 1 day I'll be that fast or good. Let them take the 1 step toward the 1k mile journey.

I don't let Brown belts Spar green belts the skill level is far too different and some Brown belts have a take no prison attitude/kyu level attitude. Now I will let certain Shodans Spar with Green and below because they have the right mental out look. Their trying to teach not actually spar with them.

I will grapple with the class, but not the entire class, I have nothing to prove. When I was coming up it was a privelivage to move around with higher rank or come to a with the higher level class and only a gifted 1-3rd kyu level was given that oppurnity.

Learning, communication and setting standards is the key here, every school is different. This is what works best for me.


Edited by Neko456 (06/16/05 11:18 AM)
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#155551 - 06/16/05 03:50 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
1973 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 20
If you feel it is important for you to spar with the lower rank students for their benefit then you need to discuss this with your shihan if ceasing sparring is something he is insisting on you doing. One of the good things about training for years and achieveing higher rank is that you are now allowed to have an opinion that your superior rank instructors will actually listen to (usually). I would always spar with the below BB ranks teaching en route and complimenting them when they find an opening or make a good technique, slip one in now and then nice and easy to keep them on their toes. They usually bow out with a smile appreciating the fact that I took the time and helped them and didn't kick their butt for my own ego. I beleive this got me more respect from the students not less, they love you for it. For above BB of course that's a little different, since they are obviously more on your level and maybe in some cases more so in physical (but likely not technical) ability. Their traing would hopefully already have taught them to respect you for who and what you have become as a MA and what you can still teach them and not who can take who. Sparring with the BB always helped to keep me sharpened up, so I got some training myself while teaching. I never felt it diminished my status with the students. It all comes down to, if your shihan insists what will you do? Are you prepared to go your own way if need be? Only you can answer, but I don't know if it's worth it over such an issue. You could just have the students spar with each other and give that pair individual attention as you circle the room if class size is not too big and would probably have the same effect. Your attention and encouragement is what they want, and as you know there are various ways to give it to them. I may not have expressed anything you didn't know already but that's my imput, hope it helps.

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#155552 - 06/16/05 04:36 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: 1973]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Thank you, nicely worded.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#155553 - 06/16/05 08:01 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: 1973]
MattJ Offline
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1973 -

Great post, exactly.

*applause*
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#155554 - 06/16/05 08:51 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: Neko456]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Thank you for your well worded and lengthy reply. Last knight I sat down and read replies to me for this post and I didnít have the time to reply the way I wanted, so I was waiting to post today. Well you have said about what I would have typed so I will thank you for your thoughts on this matter and your great reply.

1973, nicely worded.

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#155555 - 06/17/05 11:54 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by Neko456 -

Quote:

I agree that sparring with students below Black Belt is a waste of time




I'm sorry....I just can't let that go. That is arrogant BS.

Waste of time? For who? Certainly not the student, who would benefit greatly from working with a high rank. And it seems very close minded to think that you can learn nothing from a lower rank.

I have sparred lower ranks, and found some to be very athletic and intelligent. Even the uncoordinated flailers can catch you with unorthodox techniques that you do not get from the higher ranks as much.

You get out of it what you put into it.

I apologize if I have mis-interpreted what you wrote, but that came across as elitist garbage to me.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#155556 - 06/17/05 01:29 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: MattJ]
RazorFoot Offline
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Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
My first instructor was a 4th degree Moo Duk Kwan insrtuctor who not only sparred but did not pull techniques much at all. Do not misunderstand. He did not go out and simply beat you down. He worked with you, taught as he fought, and stung you if you made the same mistake twice.

He was the best fighter I have ever had the pleasure to work with then and now. I have never met anyone since with better timing, distancing, or combinations. Had I not sparred with him on a regular basis, I would not be half the fighter I am today. Am I at his level, probably not. Am I a much better fighter now thanks to the experiences with him, oh most definitely.

If he had sat back and just coached, I never would have developed the timing, footwork, distancing, and ability to react to a power shot the way I do now. It helped me to grow as a person, a MA, and as a fighter.

Higher belts sparring with lower belts is a must. There is simply too great a benefit in it not to allow students to have the experience. It also is a good thing if occasionally you can get a shot in on your instructor. It lets you know that even though they are clearly more talented, they are human too and that you are obviously improving if you can get something in on them. Sometimes, just having that desire, to score on your teacher, is enough to push you harder than you normally would push yourself.

I can only see a good side to sparring lower belts as an instructor or a senior belt.
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#155557 - 06/17/05 02:30 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: RazorFoot]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Quote:

If he had sat back and just coached, I never would have developed the timing, footwork, distancing, and ability to react to a power shot the way I do now. It helped me to grow as a person, a MA, and as a fighter.

Higher belts sparring with lower belts is a must. There is simply too great a benefit in it not to allow students to have the experience. It also is a good thing if occasionally you can get a shot in on your instructor. It lets you know that even though they are clearly more talented, they are human too and that you are obviously improving if you can get something in on them. Sometimes, just having that desire, to score on your teacher, is enough to push you harder than you normally would push yourself.

I can only see a good side to sparring lower belts as an instructor or a senior belt.




I could not agree more!
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#155558 - 06/17/05 03:42 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: RazorFoot]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Matt and Razorfoot stated it very well!

There is more benefit to everyone involved when top level instructors spar with students instead of "wasting their time."

-B

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#155559 - 06/17/05 07:18 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: MN JC]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Quote:

If he had sat back and just coached, I never would have developed the timing, footwork, distancing, and ability to react to a power shot the way I do now. It helped me to grow as a person, a MA, and as a fighter.

Higher belts sparring with lower belts is a must. There is simply too great a benefit in it not to allow students to have the experience. It also is a good thing if occasionally you can get a shot in on your instructor. It lets you know that even though they are clearly more talented, they are human too and that you are obviously improving if you can get something in on them. Sometimes, just having that desire, to score on your teacher, is enough to push you harder than you normally would push yourself.

I can only see a good side to sparring lower belts as an instructor or a senior belt.




I could not agree more!




I can! I agree more.
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#155560 - 06/17/05 08:32 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I have to agree that sparring with lower ranks is a must. Some of my best instruction came from free sparring with my Instructor, who is 5th black.

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#155561 - 06/18/05 07:00 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: MattJ]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
May be some of you are missing the part of 5th Dan sparring colored belts. I am not a 5th Dan but in my class sometimes we have over 20 students sparring at one time. If I join in how can I teach everyone? I have joined in at times and my students are so intimidated that they donít focus on anything but jumping around. I have been on both ends and know what works for me and I know my students learn from my teaching weather I spar with them or not but I seem to get the point across if colored belts spar each other and I move around the floor jumping in when needed.

Being a wast of time it is if knowone is learning and that is not being arogent!

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#155562 - 06/18/05 09:25 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: BulldogTKD]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I don't think anyone mentioned anything about sparring every single person in the class.

I use to run a sparring class at my old school, and I did in fact spar every single person that came to it, but I don't think we ever had 20 people there at once!

What came across in the earlier posts was a dismissing of the need to EVER spar the lower ranks....that is absurd. THEY need the attention, regardless of the workout that the instructor will get doing it.

Surely you can spar several different people in the class. Watching is necessary too, as there will things that will be easier to see from a distance, but the majority of the benefit for the student is going to be gained in the doing (working with the high rank).
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#155563 - 06/18/05 09:35 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: MattJ]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Matt, it's easy! Just spar them all at once! It'll be easy with the high ranking orbiting mystique guiding you.
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#155564 - 06/18/05 09:54 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: BulldogTKD]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
I helped instruct the children's sparring class.
I would spar with some of the older kids:15-17 year olds.
I also would spar with the adults that were new to sparring.

Did I go in and beat the snot out of them?
No. I sparred a little over their level, enough to challenge them. I would also talk to them during and afterwards, pointing out some good stuff I saw and some bad stuff.

Why would a much higher belt do any less?
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#155565 - 06/18/05 09:59 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: nekogami13 V2.0]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Neko,

That's all I think most who were recommending sparring students would require...not beating the crap out of someone, that is not MAs.

What I understood most to state here about not sparring students was an absolute with no qualifications attached.

Sorry if I (or we) was/were misconstruing something that you posted.

-B

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#155566 - 06/19/05 01:26 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: butterfly]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
I was throwing my support in with those advocating higher belts should spar, not defending any previous post.

Sorry if my wording/phrasing made it seem otherwise-I am on sinus meds,they tend to make me a little unfocused.
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#155567 - 06/23/05 11:55 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
They are not necessarily mutually exclusive (teaching and sparring). However there can be a difference. Where is the teacher most effective, to get the knowledge across? Is it most helpful to spar or can you be more effective showing me by another way? Teachers sparring with students has all kinds of potential some negative, some positive...

What is gained by sparring with the students, IYHO? If someone thinks I'm ~immortal~ or some such silliness because I do not spar with them... well, they are projecting big time, no?

At some point you will and are far, far superior in a technical sense the folks you work with as students. You come down to their level (whatever that might be) and help hone their skills.

I cannot agree it is a mystical thing, it is pure pragmaticism and very functional matter... IMHO.

J

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#155568 - 06/30/05 11:30 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Great topic and fantastic posts from 1973, MattJ and others! I can see all sides here.

On the one hand, your shihan has a point if you're getting old, schanne, but I don't think that's the case. If you're starting to slip you may lose the respect of beginners - those who don't have the depth of appreciation the older students have for your overall knowledge. And again, sparring is a game of tag, advantage to the young, not always to the skilled.

For what it's worth, I AM a 5th degree, and 55 years old. Last time I sparred with the kyus? Lemme see...oh yeah - YESTERDAY. I hope it was beneficial to them. I know I still enjoy it. Most of the time I let them attack; now and them I put 'em on their heels to see how they defend. I only fight as hard as I have to; funny how I get better as they do Probably will have to stop this one day. Check back with me in 5 years.


Edited by Ironfoot (06/30/05 11:33 PM)
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#155569 - 07/01/05 12:39 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: Ironfoot]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ironfoot,

And that is exactly as it should be!


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#155570 - 07/01/05 01:46 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: Ironfoot]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ironfoot -

Great to hear that! I'm sure you're students do benefit. Of course, at SOME point age will catch up with someone as an instructor. I do not recommend sparring with anyone if they are too "old" or there are other valid medical concerns.

But to say beginners are not worth your time, or there is a need to preserve "mystique".......

I think not.

Good debate, though.
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#155571 - 07/01/05 02:32 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: Ironfoot]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
I understand what your saying and respect it, my post wasn't clear enough and let me say as of today I still spar with EVERYONE in our dojo including Shihan. I think his point was that he wanted me teaching more vs. banging heads with everyone during class....during our normal classes I would put on all my gear and fight everyone(round robin)and in turn there wasn't anyone over seeing the sparring or mistake the students were making while fighting. Someone has to be watching/in charge right? and if I'm suppose to be teaching class who is critiquing/observing the students mistakes....that was his point. .......now the mystique thing still baffles me, don't think he had the right choice of words
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The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#155572 - 07/05/05 12:13 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: MattJ]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
I believe in the Theory of Evolution. People, animals or plants evolved because THEY HAD TO. When I started long ago, we sparred a lot, and control was spotty to say the least. Kyus improved to survive, or dropped out. Razorfoot's sensei MADE him improve.

I try to be gentle, but one step ahead, coaxing the students into that next step to beat the old man.
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#155573 - 07/05/05 12:29 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: Ironfoot]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I do not believe in evoultion and I think our opinions on that have no place here and nothing to do with the topic at hand!
Kyu's don't evolve, they learn!
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#155574 - 07/05/05 04:20 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: SANCHIN31]
Slayr Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Columbus, Ga. USA
My experience with instructors who don't spar their students is usually that they are afraid of not having their students believe that they are untouchable or have some mystical power. I find that this is just being full of yourself. Mix it up with your students and get rid of the big head. Maybe humbleing is needed and it can come at the end of a yellow belt's glove. Teach them and stay just above their level to keep the pressure on, but not overwhelm.

Respectfully,
15 yrs. 3rd dan
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#155575 - 07/05/05 05:22 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: SANCHIN31]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Woah!! OK, we won't turn the conversation into religious rhetoric, but to both Ironfoot and Sanchin, just because you don't believe, doesn't make it untrue....

In any case, I'll go with the conceptual idea that Ironfoot setup and agree with his premise of students getting better with teacher sparring.

-B

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#155576 - 07/06/05 11:48 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: butterfly]
mateo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Toronto
My instructor of the last 20 years, Hwang In-Shik, is in his mid sixties and still sparring. I think this is very inspiring for the students who wonder what is the age potential for continuing to be truly active in the sport.

It inspires me, when as a fellow just pushing 40 I feel perhaps I am involved in a young man's game, to look to him and know that will and consistancy in training account for a great deal.
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#155577 - 07/07/05 03:45 AM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: mateo]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I also believe that that instructors sparring with students helps keep them humble too. Having a white belt hit them with that sneaky gyakazuki is a great way of reminding them even "masters" are still human, and that the MA path still has a few miles left on it!
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#155578 - 07/08/05 03:51 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: Slayr]
Slayr Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Columbus, Ga. USA
I want to add to that last post by mentioning that an instructor does get to a certain age when sparring is just not going to be appropriate and then maybe it is not a good idea. I say if age is the factor, then okay. Age, not ego. Just felt that I should add that after reading my last post.
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#155579 - 07/08/05 04:26 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: Slayr]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think sometimes kyu level students don't understand the lesson that a sparring session hold. They see the movies and Tv and think this is how things goes.

I recently sparred with an adult Green belt he weight trained before taking my classs. He was probably 6'5 265lb and I'm 6'3 225lb, I decided to sparr him because we had just finished his test requirement the night before that was cancelled due to a black out/electrical shortage by thunder storm. And the brown belts there had just come back to class and were way out of shape. It was in between the next class coming in.

It was suppose to be him showing me that he could use the technique taught at that level in combinations. It ended up with him standing on 1. leg wriggling toward me, swinging wildly and learning nothing. He ended up vomoting and heaving on the floor from a solid kick in the stomach. He did a lot of things that would have made another person mad enough to hit him in the face. Like trying to second punch, it was hard to explain that swinging wild and 2nd punching is not wanted because he thought you are taking away the only way he got close with. There are 5 ranges/levels of sparring that I teach this was point sparring, I wanted to show how rules change the way we fight. He didn't learn any of this all he learned was pain. After this happens and on various different occassion with high school and College football players it makes me wonder if there is another way to mild their ego. Sometimes they leave & sometimes they don't pending the injury.

As a referee I could explain the rules and make him straighten up as sparring opponenet he thought I was trying to limit him. The Brown belt were rusty refs too.

As for being untouchable if you can't knock O'Sensei back with a punch to the stomach. Me with my feet slightly apart almost side by side you do push ups, from Green belt - Brown. From kids to adults, I determine how many by how weak the attempt pending size.

Some of my classes are not in the best part of town.


Edited by Neko456 (07/08/05 04:45 PM)

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#155580 - 07/08/05 04:41 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: mateo]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
That is a trully amazing TKD man, I've heard such things in Tai-Chi, Goju but TKD thats impressive. We are talking about adult 3kup- and up also.

Amazing.
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#155581 - 07/09/05 07:11 PM Re: Instructors sparring [Re: schanne]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
schanne,

Interesting topic and one that seems to have valid answers on both sides of the fence.

Are there times when an instructor should spar with students, no matter what their rank? Absolutely.

Are there times when time could be better spent observing and coaching from the sidelines? Absolutely.

Instructors should be honest about why they are doing something though. There are certainly some instructors who enjoy the "mystique" and would not risk it by losing face in front of an audience. Some of those same instructors will conveniently hide behind the idea that they are coaching. I would say that, if you need that mystique to be an effective instructor, you are playing a dangerous game with your ego.

I spar with all my students. If I get caught, I got caught. No excuses. Sometimes however, I just watch and coach. I know, and my students know, the difference.


Edited by Fletch1 (07/09/05 07:14 PM)
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