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#155381 - 06/13/05 09:59 PM Mixed Martial Arts.
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Could Systema and Krav Maga be considered a form of mixed martial arts as they are conglomerations of other forms?

I am wondering if this could be considered a more accurate definition.

Just looking for some other opinions here.
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#155382 - 06/14/05 01:49 AM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: RangerG]
satter Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 52
Loc: Croatia, Europe
I dont consider krav maga to be a M.A.

For me it is a very good system of selfdefence.

After 10 years of trainig in other M.A. I had no problem with understanding the principles of K.M.

But a friend of mine who had no previouzs experience had a lot of problems understanding some things like distance and timing and space.
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#155383 - 06/14/05 01:07 PM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: satter]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Ranger,

MMA is pretty much studying all ranges of Hand-to-Hand and tends to focus on competition. From what I can tell there isn't really any cirriculum to MMA, it's more of a training method.

Technically, you could probably call Krav a Mixed Martial Art but I don't think many of the MMA guys are going to buy into it.

Chris

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#155384 - 06/14/05 03:33 PM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: RangerG]
Equis Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 101
Loc: in my pants.
Well, if KM is not a Martial art what is it? Technically anything that is not orginated from Asia is not a martial art.

Usually a Martial Art is practiced for sport.

KM is orginated from Asian fighting styles and disciplines, but it adds more practicallity. Therefore, KM is not practiced to get points it is to defend and combat. There are no rules, no refs, no scoring on the streets it's all brutal combat that usually ends with someone half dead.

So yeah you are right it is not a Martial Art, more of a combat/defense system.


Edited by Equis (06/14/05 03:40 PM)

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#155385 - 06/14/05 04:51 PM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: Equis]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Technically anything that is not orginated from Asia is not a martial art.

first, I am not sure that you can say that that only systems coming out of Asia are martial arts, but even so, Israel is in Asia so technically that would fit the definition

I am not convinced that it is a martial art because I don't think it should be studied or treated as one. It lacks the spirituality factor of "martial arts" and it lacks the "lifestyle" aspect.

krav maga is a very effective system for fighting, and I am ot sure that it is anything more than that.


Usually a Martial Art is practiced for sport.

KM is orginated from Asian fighting styles and disciplines, but it adds more practicallity. Therefore, KM is not practiced to get points it is to defend and combat. There are no rules, no refs, no scoring on the streets it's all brutal combat that usually ends with someone half dead.

So yeah you are right it is not a Martial Art, more of a combat/defense system.



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#155386 - 06/14/05 05:45 PM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: RangerG]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
MMA is both a sport and a process that allows you to pressure test your tactics and skills in controlled training environments.

So, it depends. If your KM training is too dangerous to spar with and consists mainly of memorized/practiced techniques against predetermined attacks, then I would say that it in now way resembles what I call MMA.

Nothing wrong with it. It might be a Self Defense system. Just not MMA.
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#155387 - 06/15/05 06:50 AM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: satter]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I posed this question to see what the responses would be. On occasion I try to think outside the "box" and see what is going on in other peoples heads with regard to Martial Arts in general, and it's variations.

Group discussion on a variety of subjects fosters a strong community and creates friendships across borders. It allows us to understand each others cultures and thinking.

Beware of the old man with the stick...he likes to poke
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"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#155388 - 06/24/05 03:54 AM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: RangerG]
Equis Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 101
Loc: in my pants.
I am thinking of cross training with Hapkido I went to an introductory class last week.

I like Hapkido as it fills in some of the stuff KM does not teach as using traditional weapons. I mean they are pretty much not that useful in real world applications but I would like to learn how to handle swords and stuff.

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#155389 - 06/30/05 03:03 AM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: Equis]
clammy joe Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 112
I think you could call it that in the broadest sense since it borrows from karate, boxing, ju-jitsu and ?. It's a MMA plus it offers defenses that you wouldn't see in a tournement. Personally I use the term martial art for any fighting style from boxing to kali to wrestling, it just keeps things simpler and avoids long and boring arguments about semantics.

I watched a UFC video for the first time in years and as soon as I saw it I thought "That's Krav." Whether or not the participants in the fights had ever even heard of Krav what they were doing was very similar, boxing stance, karate kicks, ju-jitsu ground techniques.
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#155390 - 06/30/05 04:33 AM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: Equis]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Quote:

Well, if KM is not a Martial art what is it? Technically anything that is not orginated from Asia is not a martial art.





Open to argument, some would include western boxing and wrestling in martial arts, others would call them sports.

Quote:


Usually a Martial Art is practiced for sport.






By this definition you could include boxing, wrestling and others.

The traditinal Asian Martial Arts were not practiced for sport at all. Today, there are many sports orientated martial arts groups. Not sure about your country, but in UK there are still many non sports based martial arts.
Sharon
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#155391 - 07/05/05 07:40 AM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: clammy joe]
AikiGhost Offline
Member

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 85
Loc: UK
Quote:

I watched a UFC video for the first time in years and as soon as I saw it I thought "That's Krav." Whether or not the participants in the fights had ever even heard of Krav what they were doing was very similar, boxing stance, karate kicks, ju-jitsu ground techniques.




Heres the rub as they say. If you train all tools at all ranges presssure test said techniques through full contact sparring with non compliant opponents then you are doing a MMA. Leave out any of these components and you are not doing a MMA, its that simple.
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#155392 - 07/05/05 04:01 PM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: AikiGhost]
MitchM Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Mission Viejo, CA
Krav Maga's founder and his direct students had their roots (martial arts training) in Judo, Aikido, Ju-Jitsu and wrestling. You will see a lot of Ju-Jitsu in the ground fighting and Aikido in the general movement.

But, having said this, there is a lot to Krav Maga that is orginal Krav Maga. The approach to most of the self-defense techniques (against bear hug, choke, arm-bars, etc.) are pure Krav Maga. The fighting style, not self-defense, is very similar to kickboxing, while standing, and then ju-jitsu, as stated earlier, when the fight moves toward the ground.

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#155393 - 07/06/05 02:36 AM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: Equis]
vladoshi Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 2
Greek Pakration predates all asian "martial arts" by 1 - 2 thousand years. Asian are just more famous (though obviously not as successful as proven in K1, Pride, Olympics, etc).

Try for three categories RangerG,

1. Self Defence systems with just some general things and telling students they will magically be more aggressive and win the day. You have no idea where you stand compared to other men or women. I would never think my mother is safe because she knows a few childish, girly "moves". People do not stop dead because they get slightly injured. Better than nothing though. Judging is entirely subjective and abstract.
2. Martial arts (should) train you to be as technically powerful and perfect as possible. Proven or disproven subjectively and by comparison judging. Usefulness is often based on historical reasons or athletic feats.
3. Sports fighting actually asks you to put your "money" where your mouth is. Proven or disproven absolutely, where the usefulness is judged by the quality of competition.

The more I read, the more Krav Maga sounds supiciously similar to ninjitsu or "52 Blocks/Jailhouse Rock" to me. Its covers all situations, every paranoid possibility, is non contact and gives people an intangible feeling of success.
Wins ambiguous wars instead of bullets and bombs! If the founder was a reasonable fighter its because, according to his bio, he was a multi combat sports fighting champion. No mention of which trophies or championships he won though, or the quality of competition. And his listed original styles are different on each web site. Dont trust these sneaky, back stabbing systems. For a start they breed a sneaky, back stabbing attitude in their followers. If someone hits you from behind they have to be incompetent not to beat you.

"Jab the eyes and pull the hair. Grab their throat and squeeze while kicking and kneeing until they fall down. Then jump up and down on their chests until you hear something break." - An unidentified english mercenary. Even granny can do that. Try it against a weight trainer or combat sports fighter who wants to kill/maim you and they will jab your eyes faster, crush your throat quicker and kick your balls harder. Use it on a bouncer and more will appear and you wont walk properly again, and the judge will rule in their favour. If its about "taking to the next level", the violent, fight experienced sociopath who is assaulting you wants to take it there first.

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#155394 - 07/08/05 08:37 AM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: still wadowoman]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
For al who are saying Systema and Krav Maga are battle defense and not MMA is a little naive. "Martial" is dirived from the word military. The art of military fighting. Don't all Asian martial arts come from ancient war time futal Japan and China. Therefor they would be combat fighting forms aswell. To say that martial arts only come from Asia or the Orient is obssered. What about Savete-France, or those [edit] South Americans that flip around like break dancing (not sure what it's called).


Edited by RangerG (07/08/05 03:32 PM)
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#155395 - 07/09/05 05:05 AM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: vladoshi]
Equis Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 101
Loc: in my pants.
Orginally posted by: vladoshi

Quote:

Greek Pakration predates all asian "martial arts" by 1 - 2 thousand years.




So what's your point here? I am sure the Egyptians had a fighting style also, and guess what it predates the Greek Pankration.

Quote:


Asian are just more famous (though obviously not as successful as proven in K1, Pride, Olympics, etc).




Yhea I am sure all that fighting they do has no Asian influence at all. Sheeesh..

Quote:

Try for three categories RangerG,




First, why do we need categories for the simple fact that the thread read "Mixed Martial Arts." Not let's bash Krav Maga like every other troll thinks his Style is the best.

Quote:

1. Self Defence systems with just some general things and telling students they will magically be more aggressive and win the day. You have no idea where you stand compared to other men or women.




Krav Maga is not a magic system that will as you say Magically make people feel agressive. It is a system of defense and fighitng that incorprates many offensive moves and ground work.

Quote:

I would never think my mother is safe because she knows a few childish, girly "moves".




Yeah, please ellaborate on some of the girly moves you have seen in Krav Maga. I will personally demonstrate them to you if you think they are so childish.

Quote:

People do not stop dead because they get slightly injured. Better than nothing though. Judging is entirely subjective and abstract.



??? What are you talking about here? I would hope that they do not drop dead. I hope for them to be badly hurt, not slighty injured.

Quote:

2. Martial arts (should) train you to be as technically powerful and perfect as possible. Proven or disproven subjectively and by comparison judging. Usefulness is often based on historical reasons or athletic feats.




You realize you just said proficient twice just worded diffrently. Way to go Captain obvious.
Quote:


3. Sports fighting actually asks you to put your "money" where your mouth is. Proven or disproven absolutely, where the usefulness is judged by the quality of competition.





So you are saying that people who get all padded up, or K1 fighitng style are ultimate non-bar. I think you confuse Sport as in Olympic Stlye Tae Kwon Do point scoring to the K1 full contact. Not the same easy to confuse, as you easily do it seems.
Quote:


The more I read, the more Krav Maga sounds supiciously similar to ninjitsu or "52 Blocks/Jailhouse Rock" to me.




Well that is your problem, don't talk about it before you try it. That statement can be a blanket statement for any style.

Quote:


Its covers all situations, every paranoid possibility, is non contact and gives people an intangible feeling of success.




You misread, most common street type altrications for paranoia. The paranoid one I think here is you for jumping to conclusions that KRav Maga is the be all end all of defense systems.

Quote:


Wins ambiguous wars instead of bullets and bombs! If the founder was a reasonable fighter its because, according to his bio, he was a multi combat sports fighting champion. No mention of which trophies or championships he won though, or the quality of competition. And his listed original styles are different on each web site. Dont trust these sneaky, back stabbing systems. For a start they breed a sneaky, back stabbing attitude in their followers. If someone hits you from behind they have to be incompetent not to beat you.




Slander... nice touch. Krac Maga a back stabbing system, I do believe I missed that class. The "Hit them while they are not looking" technique.

Quote:


"Jab the eyes and pull the hair. Grab their throat and squeeze while kicking and kneeing until they fall down. Then jump up and down on their chests until you hear something break." - An unidentified english mercenary. Even granny can do that. Try it against a weight trainer or combat sports fighter who wants to kill/maim you and they will jab your eyes faster, crush your throat quicker and kick your balls harder.




Again an other blanket statment, your style versus the "insert big body builder person here". Do you have any real points or anything constructive to add the Mixed Martial Arts topic or is it all Krav Maga bashing?


Quote:

Use it on a bouncer and more will appear and you wont walk properly again, and the judge will rule in their favour. If its about "taking to the next level", the violent, fight experienced sociopath who is assaulting you wants to take it there first.




What are you saying, that makes no sense. So to take it to the next level I basically have to be crazy..

Well all right, that really helped us out about the Mixed Martial Arts thread...

Hoooray!!! You are doing a great job as a troll. You must be a 9th degree TrollJitsu.

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#155396 - 07/09/05 07:51 AM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: vladoshi]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
vladoshi,

I had read your comments a while back, but declined to respond as I had come to the conclusion that you were speaking from a complete lack of knowledge with regard to Krav Maga. The more I think about it, the stronger my opinion becomes.

You have a right to your opinon, and a right to feel your form or system is "best", however I find it dishonorable and detestable when a person bashes another form or system.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#155397 - 07/09/05 01:07 PM Re: Mixed Martial Arts. [Re: vladoshi]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
RangerG -

Don't get too upset about vladoshi. He sounds like one of the MMA bible-thumping Bullshido nutriders.

Style bashing is stupid. Vladoshi has no idea how any particular Krav school trains. Maybe some Krav people DO train Alive, yes? So the style bashing is dumb. HOW you train, not WHAT you train. Hell, two of my best friends are TKD black belts, and I assure you that they train very much Alive.

BTW, vlad....check the bios for many of your vaunted Bullshido Admins. Notice how many have trad backgrounds.

Have a nice day.
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