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#155263 - 06/26/05 02:13 AM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: someotherguy]
Neb Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 23
Loc: Tas, Australia
Quote:


The way I understand Wing Chun is that it has no blocks (or techniques really). I do not think is it practical to try to oppose a force from the opponent.




this is absolutely incorrect. Wing Chun focuses on centerline and low kicks, Wing Chun uses a block that just parries the attackers strike enough for it to miss the body, then with the same hand they strike, it is probably the most effortless style of Kung Fu, maybe in Martial Arts.

anyway, Wing Chun got some of it's techniques from Loong Chu (dragon)
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#155264 - 06/26/05 10:45 AM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: pathfinder7195]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Pathfinder7195 -

Quote:

Bong sau is used in many different styles.




Please name a few. I have never seen that taught as a codified technique in any other system.
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#155265 - 06/26/05 11:02 AM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MattJ]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Bong Sao means to tie up not WING ARM. This is a common misunderstanding. People watch too many movies get the wrong Idea.

I know that Hung gar, Jow Ga, CLF all have things called Bong Sao. Same thing with Du Ma, tan sao ,jee keun ect.. they are all general technique names. The actual movement isn't the same.. DUH
People add fancy names to make them "cool" but they all are basic ideas. Like wing arm they thing Wing chun has animal movements.. well maybe the Main Land version does.. but not the HK version.

If you look at different students on Ip man you will find different styles. Most are soft and short range... but I happen to know One disciple who isn't short range and is very hard.

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#155266 - 06/26/05 11:18 AM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: monji112000]
MattJ Offline
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Don't play semantics, Monji.

Bong Sao is TAUGHT as "wing arm", no matter how you attempt to define it. I have not seen it taught AS THAT in any other style, as a codified part of it. Again, please show me examples.

The fact that WC uses it as a distinctive, purposely taught technique is the difference that I am refering to.
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#155267 - 06/26/05 02:39 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: pathfinder7195]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
wing chun chi sau does NOT have a set of pre arranged movements. It has them in the beginning in order to tech you the movement so that you gain control and energy flow, but certainly not in the more advanced levels.

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#155268 - 06/26/05 02:43 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MattJ]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Quote by MattJ

Bong Sao is TAUGHT as "wing arm", no matter how you attempt to define it. I have not seen it taught AS THAT in any other style, as a codified part of it. Again, please show me examples.

MattJ we don't do the bong sau excatly like wing chun but we do use blocks that use the lifting of the elbow to slip a punch. I did it in boxing and clf. I think that "distintive" bong sau look like in wing chun is done that way for proper form. My friend has been in wing chun for 3 years with several years in other arts and when we spar his bong sau block looks nothing like the block in the chi sau drills that we do.

Kevin

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#155269 - 06/27/05 05:18 AM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: Neb]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

it is probably the most effortless style of Kung Fu, maybe in Martial Arts.





A lot of people take what you are saying (and I am not implying that you are) and translate it into lazy. They feel that because wing chun is not about meeting force with force that it is easy and that you dont need to condition your self or practice the drill till you drop. That is absolutely not true, if you are practising a martial art, however clever the techniques may be, you still have to make sure that the tool that delivers the technique is healthy and strong, otherwise you will be overpowered. Also you need to drill in the techniques otherwise in a pressurized environment it will simply not work, and you will result in flailing arms.

Also Neb,
Could you give me more info on Loong Chu?

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#155270 - 06/27/05 09:07 AM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MAGr]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
LOL This isn't a semantic

Do you also learn Dragon crushing the pearls?
Yes many BS Sifu's teach anything they want.. but if you translate Bong sao it means TO tie up. It is in every style.. because every style has something that ties up. Its a general term. Many styles have Tan sao ect..

IP man WC has NO direct animal movements, and NO WC isn't the most effective or effortless blah blah blah created.. its just a MA. Nothing is perfect ect..

What is a name? Take Bong Sao, if you pretend to say WING ARM you loose the meaning of the name. A name only helps you remember what the thing does.. Are you going to flap your bong sao?

You can't make general statements about WC or any Style or system. Everyone has a different view.

Some people teach blocking in WC( some teach covering).ect.. ect.. its all relative.


How did you learn to use your Bong Soa?
I have been told by someone to cave-in as soon as I get pressure..
I have been told also that you can use it for a good straight punch..

I have been taught to jam in or redirect ( tie up)
and if I want to cover against a straight punch to add the tan sao... because it will never completely cover any good straight punch (wc or western boxing punch)

if you look at the form as movements you loose allot. The form only shows theory's or ideas.. how to cover with the elbow ect..

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#155271 - 06/27/05 03:22 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MAGr]
Laughing Dingo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 17
Quote:

As far as I know, the consensus is that wing chun was created out of a mix of what "masters" then thought as the most effective techniques from the other kung fu styles.
As a wing chun practitioner, I have not, unfortunately come into contact with practitioners of other styles, and I would love to know, where wing chun got its techniques from.
I ll list a few
Blocks:
Bong Sau (wing arm)
Tan Sau (beggars hand)
Man Sau (asking hand)
Gan Sau
Dip Sau
Jum Sau

Strikes:
chain punches
biu gee finger strikes
cutting elbows
palm strikes
fat sau (chop)
Rear stamp kick
front kick
shin kick
elbow break etc..

Techniques:
lok sau
chi sau
wooden dummy (do other kung fu styles use this?)

Excuse my translations, but where did all this come from?
Is there a particular style that it came from?
What about the goat stance?
I would appreciate ANY insight into your respective arts.
Of course the names vary




Nearly every technique of Wing Chun can be found in one form or another in Hung Ga. Wooden dummies are used by Choy li fut, southern praying mantis, shaolin, etc. Chi Sao can be seen in southern praying mantis. White Crane of Fujien has many similar elements of Wing Chun, including the stance. In my opinion, Wing Chun is just a variation of the southern styles, a little more refined than and possibly lacking in some areas. Somewhere along the line Wing Chun turned into paddy cake paddy cake...

Bong Sao is worthless as a block, its a deflection at best and should transition into another movement asap. Bong sao needs to be used with shifting and not straight on. lop sao drills with bong sao are a complete waste of time in my opinion.

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#155272 - 06/27/05 04:33 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MAGr]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
I love wing chung's methods of fighting. But I like the Shaolin footwork better, as well as xingyi footwork. btw I find xingyi works really well if you combine it with wingchung methods, but alot of the stiffness/structure has to be loosened.
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