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#155253 - 06/13/05 05:35 PM The melting pot of kung fu
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
As far as I know, the consensus is that wing chun was created out of a mix of what "masters" then thought as the most effective techniques from the other kung fu styles.
As a wing chun practitioner, I have not, unfortunately come into contact with practitioners of other styles, and I would love to know, where wing chun got its techniques from.
I ll list a few
Blocks:
Bong Sau (wing arm)
Tan Sau (beggars hand)
Man Sau (asking hand)
Gan Sau
Dip Sau
Jum Sau

Strikes:
chain punches
biu gee finger strikes
cutting elbows
palm strikes
fat sau (chop)
Rear stamp kick
front kick
shin kick
elbow break etc..

Techniques:
lok sau
chi sau
wooden dummy (do other kung fu styles use this?)

Excuse my translations, but where did all this come from?
Is there a particular style that it came from?
What about the goat stance?
I would appreciate ANY insight into your respective arts.
Of course the names vary

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#155254 - 06/13/05 05:52 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MAGr]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Good question MAGr.

While far from a Kung Fu expert, I have researched many MA styles, including some KF styles, and have never seen the Bong Sao in any other system.

It seemed so bizarre, yet effective, that it prompted me towards significant self-study of WC/Chi sao.

Most of the other blocks and strikes I have seen (variations of) in some of the animal systems. Chi Sao is somewhat similar to Tai Chi "push hands", so maybe there is a connection.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#155255 - 06/13/05 06:49 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MattJ]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Push hands? I ll look into that!
Yes the Bong Sau is effective, but I have read in another thread which I forget the name of, that the elbow is used to block in other MAs aswell.

I have heard of many non WC practitioners doing chi sau.
How do you go about it with no prior knowledge? I am not being sarcastic, just inquisitive, because it would seem to me that trappig techniques are to be learned first.
Also do you do chi sau with your partner as a competition or as a training exercise? (slight difference in my opinion).

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#155256 - 06/13/05 08:15 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MAGr]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
Quote:

I would love to know, where wing chun got its techniques from.
I ll list a few

Blocks:
Strikes:
Techniques:





The way I understand Wing Chun is that it has no blocks (or techniques really). I do not think is it practical to try to oppose a force from the opponent. Better to deflect/parry or directly counter-attack. So terms like "bong sao" do not refer to "blocking" concepts at all. Bong sao doesn't use the eblow to block, it is about deflecting an attack or avoiding a trapping.

Are you also sure that "push hands" is like "chi sao". Chi sao is more of a game, where you try to spontaneously apply what you understand Wing Chun to be. It is much more than the "double hands" exercise/drill.

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#155257 - 06/13/05 08:55 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MAGr]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Interesting. My base art (American Kenpo) utilizes elbow blocks/deflections as well, but not as a codified technique...they are in the techniques, but you have to find them. They are not pointed out as such. WC is the only art I have seen where they are "pointed out", so to speak.

AKK also employs what they call "checks", which are very similar to the WC trapping techniques, so I had a model for how to utilize sensitivity excercises from that.

The rest was trial and error . It took a while, believe me. I can't believe I'm going to write this, but we actually used the tournament scenes (Bruce vs. Bob Wall) from "Enter the Dragon" as a model to begin our Chi Sao training.

Sounds really bad, I know. But it turned out to have very good functional application.

I am not sure I understand your competition/training question, but if I am reading it right, my answer is both.

We are actively trying to "score" on each other in a resistive format, but as a means of improving sensitivity.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#155258 - 06/14/05 05:40 AM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MattJ]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Although I am a big advocate of "find an instructor in your area" there is sometings in fils that can be translated, after you have a solid martial arts base. Also if you want to see a good wing chun film and believe there is only one, its called warriors.
Also in chi sau, try and feel the energy exchange of force that goes between you and your partner, it helps your sensitivity if you consciously think about energy flow.

Yes, good, chi sau is a way of improving sensitivity through scoring points.

As for the comment on bong sau and wing chun not having any blocks, I am aware that you dont use force against force and that they are redirections of force rather than block, but how would you call them so that you apply a common protocal with all MAs?

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#155259 - 06/14/05 05:49 AM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MAGr]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
I think wing chun has some similarities with the filipino MA. Chi sau and lop sau are similar to hubud. I think that hubud is like doing bong sau, then tan sau and then striking.
Also, I think that a lot of wing chun is in some of the karate katas.
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#155260 - 06/14/05 05:49 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: Kosh]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Here's my stab at this:

First of all the way WC does chi sau seems very unique to WC. It is a tan/bong sau roll and a low to high fook sau. Other styles, such as Praying Mantis that do chi sau don't have a set pattern per se. They just touch hands and go with the flow, trying to stay sticky. I haven't experienced tai chi push hands yet, but I believe it's just involving deflection of energy/feeling energy. Techniques seem to come muhc later in tai chi training. I think I've seen a Hung Gar version of push hands. But I think it was more of a sensitity drill than the chi sau we're talking about.

Bong Sau, I'll agree with everyone else that it's a hand unique to wing chun. So unique to WC that it was featured in at least one magazine cover. I've heard the asking hand section from bil jee has crane/snake origins. The pigeon toed stance seems pretty unique to WC as well. Center line theory and such are heavily used in WC, but I've heard about it in many other styles. Hands like kwan sao and gan sao may be shaolin in origin. I've learned blocks similar to it. Differences are in angling of the body, etc. In summary, I think most of the wing chun hands are modified versions of other styles. Maybe bong sau's like taht too. It could've been an elbow technique in other styles, modified to be the bong sau in wing chun, much like gan sau came from the shaolin block I mentioned. Chain punching could've come from any style that used vertical punching.

As far as chi sau in tournaments, I've heard some wushu tournaments like UC Berkeley have a chi sau/push hand section. I personally only did chi sau in learning. It's a very efficient way to learn sensitivy and application of techniques, while being somewhat safe and controlled. I have very little problems seeing chi sau going full out combat, or giong a bit lighter into tournament style.

Sorry so lengthy, and hope this helps.


Edit: About the enter the dragon scene.. that is a wing chun type of chi sau, but not THE chi sau that wing chun is known for. The kind of chi sau I believe focuses more on bridging the gap. They are also a lot less sticky.


Edited by 18lohans (06/14/05 05:52 PM)

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#155261 - 06/24/05 03:36 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MAGr]
Longduckdong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 7
As I understand it Wing Chung is one of the three major styles that came out of the Shaolin Temple. It was created by a Shaolin Nun who created the system of deflection and infighting to suit her size relative to male martial artists. Meaning that because of her weaker body type she needed to avoide direct strikes and utilize her increased speed to get in and out quickly when fighting.

I take Shaolin Ch'uan Fa which incorporates all elements under the Kung Fu umbrella and I have been told is based upon the original style of Kung Fu practiced in the Shaolin Temple. We study a 5 animal system, which means that we learn techniques that apply to all different body types and physical abilities so that you can match your fighting style to your opponent.

To address your question about Wing Chung utilizing what the founder thought were the best techniques I have this to say. Every family style was created because that practitioner felt that certain movements were more effective for him or her to use in combat. A simple example might be a monk who was a good kicker decided to focus on mostly kicking techniques and developed his own style from there. That does not mean that everyone human can make these techniques work as effectively. That is why certain styles are better for certain body types and attitudes. Hung Gar is another style that came out of the Shaolin Temple, it is a Tiger Crane style that uses a lot of Tiger techniques to overwhelm the opponent. But if you are a small person trying to get Hung Gar techniques to work on a larger person you may have trouble because so much of getting techniques to work has to do with how you compare physically to your opponent. Some would argue that good technique will always win out but I would say that there can always be a wrong technique for the wrong occasion.

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#155262 - 06/24/05 04:30 PM Re: The melting pot of kung fu [Re: MAGr]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
That's the great thing about kung fu is that people don't get to caught up in styles or systems. The best kung fu teachers I've meet have all said the same thing "it doesn't matter the style, good kung fu is good kung fu"
My core style is choy li fut. But you can see the heavy influence of hung gar and chin na in there as well.
In reference to the chi sau drills we do them as well. But in our class it's not a pre-arranged set of movements like in wing chun. All styles have their own set of drills to gain "sensitivity". Even when I did boxing we would do drills where we would lean on each other with our forearms touching so we could gain sensitivity. You could feel the opponent drop to the right/left and you would jam their punch with your forearm because you always kept contact with their forearms. I boxed for 12 years off and on.
Bong sau is used in many different styles. Again we used it in boxing as well. Great way to deflect jabs. As the person jabs you lift up your elbow slightly.
In choy li fut the wooden dummy is mainly for conditioning whereas wing chun is used more for sensitivity.
The goal of good kung fu is not about styles but being able to generate good quick power from what ever position you are in.

Kevin

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