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#154626 - 06/10/05 03:35 PM Sport Defense
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
A poll suggested by Kintama:
I practice for sport MA, but I think my skill's effectiveness for self-defense in a real attack would be...
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 06/10/05 03:16 PM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

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#154627 - 06/11/05 04:45 PM Re: Sport Defense [Re: JoelM]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
You guys know that you can type out a reply and/or comment too, right?

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#154628 - 06/11/05 10:24 PM Re: Sport Defense [Re: JoelM]
devinw Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 66
Loc: Utah
We do both in our gym:

* Training for MMA- I think this training is very good MMA Sport Fighter. We train in Muay Thai, Modified Freestlye submission and Greco-Roman wrestling, boxing. We work on takedowns, guard passes, and submissions with/without gound and pound or kicks and punches. We adjust our techniques, tactics, training methods by having instructors who are at the top of their Game.

However if a M.A stopped there- In the sport you only have to worry about one opponent or a weapon and are protected by a referee. In Most casses this fighter will win the situation.

However , about two years ago. We had a young 22 year old talented MMA fighter in Utah from a different school that attented a party , had some words with another young man.

An hour later, Three young men returned to the party and this young fighter was jumped and hit in the back of the head with a baseball bat. He was lucky to be alive, but will never be the same due to the brain damage.


* This why ALL our students must make street combatives their #1 priority. It is our #1 priority. We train in the five ranges of combat. Each student must become proficient in each.





Edited by devinw (06/12/05 02:15 AM)

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#154629 - 06/12/05 10:19 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: JoelM]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Of course, I firmly believe that resistive partner training of "sportive" techniques can be applicable in SD, and is one of the quickest ways to gain functional skill.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#154630 - 06/12/05 06:56 PM Re: Sport Defense [Re: JoelM]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Dont mean to offend anyone, I m sure there are members that can defend themselves but as to very effective.... that is debatable to say the least.


Edited by MAGr (06/12/05 06:57 PM)

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#154631 - 06/13/05 09:29 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: JoelM]
Gula Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 78
From my experiences(seen, heard and attended) of street fighting have led me to the conclusion you cant really practice self defence properly unless you just fight alot.

You cant really train for situations like being hit by a baseball bat to the back of your head so I think you could just train in what simulates a real fight for example full contact boxing. It will not only make you more skillful but more confident that you can handle situations when people try to hurt you.

And for the multiple opponents.. well I have never been attacked more than 1 people ( knock on wood =) ) but if there are more than 2 people .. your chances are slim with out a weapon as for street fights are very unpredictable in 1 on 1 situations so how unpridictable can they be in 3 on 1 situations! Thats why I think its kinda waste of time..

theres my two cents
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No Brain, No Pain!

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#154632 - 06/13/05 02:08 PM Re: Sport Defense [Re: MAGr]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
MAGr -

If someone do not think their techniques would be very effective, why would anyone bother training? Perhaps I do not understand the context of your statement.

Training that is only "somewhat" effective would seem to be of very little value to me.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#154633 - 06/13/05 05:25 PM Re: Sport Defense [Re: MattJ]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
MattJ
You are right, I need to rephrase what I said. Its not that the techniques are not effective, you are correct in saying that no one in their right mind would be doing a martial art that they thought was not effective. But there are too many "buts" and "ifs" to say very effective.
What would happen if two of the people who said very effective, met and fought each other? One would lose, and hence his/her technique would become "not as effective as I thought". I dont know if I am making any sense, but I am just saying that there are no perfect techniques....they can all be countered, and so very effective should just be effective.
Unless we are talking about SD against someone who does not know any SD, in that case, I retract my comment and I will switch my vote to very effective!

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#154634 - 06/13/05 06:11 PM Re: Sport Defense [Re: MAGr]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
MAGr -

I see what you mean. There is effectiveness ie; being able to control certain factors (technique in all ranges), and then there is luck, which are all the other, more elusive factors (sun in the eyes, gravel on the sidewalk, opponent's superior skillset/athleticism, etc.) which all contribute to the outcome.

I was referencing my comment strictly to the factors that you CAN control.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#154635 - 06/14/05 06:54 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
The problems here are that its tough to precisely define a "sport" technique.

Example; Chokes are used in "sportive" competition but they are very effective fight enders. Is this sport technique then not effective in "self defense"? Can you see the point?

How do you define sport martial arts? I think such a thing is more than a little grey.

-John

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#154636 - 06/14/05 08:13 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: JKogas]
Gemini Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 333
Loc: NY, USA
I agree. Being a bit grey leaves it open to interpretation. That being the case, I put somewhat effective. Sport MA's do offer some things of value that you need to know, but not everything. I train in both.

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#154637 - 06/14/05 09:39 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: Gemini]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
good points. so the answer there would be
"In some situations effective"

but yet, thats not what we are seeing so far in the results. I would expect that people who train for sport, would realize that only some of the training might be applicable to SD.
Instead we get almost ALL of the sport-trained people thinking their training will likely pay off in a self-defense situation. interesting.

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#154638 - 06/14/05 01:42 PM Re: Sport Defense [Re: Kintama]
Foundation Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 343
I think that sport orientated MA is very effective if you and your opponent square off and the opponent doesn't has any arms, because you train against resisting opponents.
Of course armed opponents are hard to take out with regular sport moves, since they're based on unarmed opponents, you'll be better off with SD training in that case.

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#154639 - 06/14/05 04:51 PM Re: Sport Defense [Re: JoelM]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I feel that some full contact martial arts guys fair pretty well on the street against unarmed opponents. They're generally very fit, very well conditioned, and used to dishing out and receiving punishment. I agree with point raised about multiple attackers. Geoff Thompson, a UK martial artists and brilliant author, wrote in one of his books, "You get what you train for!". Full contact MA's and boxers in my experience as a doorman have made very effective fighters, they are used to pain. But if they haven't had any weapons experience then they won't know how to prepare for it.

As for points scoring sports MA's, and I hope I don't cause any offence by this, is not an effective way of training for real life. They train to score points and pull shots, on the street this is exactly what their bodies will naturally do.

Well that's 2 cents worth anyhows!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#154640 - 06/15/05 06:39 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: Gavin]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

As for points scoring sports MA's, and I hope I don't cause any offence by this, is not an effective way of training for real life. They train to score points and pull shots, on the street this is exactly what their bodies will naturally do.





Gavin,
I disagree as to what the body will naturally do in a conflict. I do not know where you come up with this knowledge but I have never seen a study stating this. From personnal experience I can tell you that in conflict situations (bar fights) I have never pulled my punches nor tried to score points however the only competition I have entered was WKF point fighting competition (although already 15 years ago).
As for my 'real life' experiences, I have lost and won and most ended without breaking bones but I have ko'd some and have been ko'd once in a 'street fight'.
Competition, in whatever form (full contact, continiuous, point sparring,...), is a method to test/show fighting spirit. I agree that training for continous systems, allowing full contact without use of protective gear will prepare a fighter better in full contact situations then when training just to score points but training is training and not a real fight. If what you say would be true then all kata training done by karateka is useless as normally, during training, nobody executes e.g. a joint lock till it pops.
In SD I believe that fighting spirit is more important than anything else. When in conflict you are prepared to go to what it takes to stop the conflict, you are a tough opponent to fight. With correct training and insight, your fighting spirit will grow. The means to test your fighting spirit can be competition.

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#154641 - 06/15/05 08:42 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: CVV]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
CVV, a good response. I'll try to address the points. I sincerely hope that I don't cause any offence to competition guys, as that's my intention!

In Geoff Thompsons book, "The 3 Second Fighter"...He recounts a story of a competition Karateka who got into an situation on the street, automatically threw a punch out of instinct and it landed. However due to the fact that his body was conditioned to "pull" the punch due to the rules imposed on him because of his sport, landed an ineffective punch. His opponent took it on the chin, and returned fire and gave him a pasting. Geoff was asked by the guy what went wrong, and he explained it was due to what he was training for.

Obviously I can not put this over anywhere near as eloquently as Mr Thompson but I'll try. When training we condition our bodies through repitition to make our techniques a reflective action. Competition sparring rules dicttates that excessive contact will result in a disqualification, therefore Compettion stylists have to train there bodies to automatically reduce the contact. They have to train their bodies to automatically reduce the contact of their strikes, because in the heat of competition they simply don't get the time to do it mentally.

I'd like to add the point that I am generlizing majorly, I'm just trying to convey the point of we get what we train for. I have never personally taken part in a competition, but I have sparred plenty of points fighters over the years. One thing I have constantly found is that once they land ippon (correct term?) they pull away, which generally ends in chasing them all the way into the wall, when we take them straight to the floor, and stamp on them. Under their rules, I get trounced. They're bloody quick.

With regards to the Kata, which I really don't want to get into a kata debate, these actually allow you perform the movements to their full motion. When you come to practice the bunkai obviously you can't twist someones arm out of its socket, but practicing the kata solo allows you to perform the full movement.

I have seen and personally dealt with alot of people with alot of intent, and although a huge part of the puzzle, intent is nothing without the ability to use it.

As I said previously, I hope I haven't offended anyone...just offering a point of view for the discussion.


Edited by Gavin (06/15/05 09:30 AM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#154642 - 06/15/05 10:14 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: Gavin]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Gavin, I am not offended that quickly

I have a problem with the pulling punches theory.
In WKF point sparring, rules on contact for seniors (+21) is set to no injurie. However it is expected that a trained athlete can pack a punch on the muscular parts of the body
(abdominen). As such, mid-level punches are mostly executed full-out. On high level (to the head/neck/upper chest) and to the back moderate contact is allowed, on throat no contact is allowed. This does not mean that the technique itself should be executed with less force, just that the zone of impact is set to a few centimeters before the target resulting into skin touch or no-contact.
In the case of your example of the book, it was intend that was missing. I have seen point sparring competitions end in deliberate brawls ending with broken noses / broken bones / ko ... and the only difference was intend to hurt, to set control at level "punch through the target". This is what I mean with fighting spirit and overcoming fear to fight wich is in my opinion the most important asset for self defense.
In general though, karate's randori and jyu kumite fighting systems have the tendency to stop after delivering a controlled "effective" technique. This is I think because of the shiai kumite infuence (point sparring) and is in my opinion bad practise coming from a one technique/one kill phylosophy imported from kendo. But an old Okinawan saying points in the right direction regarding karate : true mastery lies in the fact that the outcome of a conflict can be decided with one technique, one should train towards this goal. As such kata should always be practised with full intent and it's study should be taken very seriously. Point sparring competition does not intend to decide who is the best fighter but evaluates a technique on technical aspects eventually awarding a score to the technique in regard to it's possible outcome.
If one trains with the intend to be good at point sparring the intend is not self defense. In free sparring the distinction in shiai kumite and jyu kumite should be explained. If somebody is only trained in shiai kumite and never experienced anything else, changes that he can handle himself in a continous fight will depend on his ability to adapt. The more he experiences the SD logic (fighting to end the fight) the better his changes get.
To my knowledge/experience, most of the +18 karate students come to this experience and gradually progress in it.

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#154643 - 06/15/05 10:30 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: CVV]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
CVV, gotta say I agree 100%. I think my general experience of points karateka is against people who only have the intent to score a point against me. Me coming from a club where the sparring is usually pretty tough against guys whose intent is specifically trying to hit me, its no wonder why we generally walk through the points guys.

Going back to some of the original points about full contact fighters, their intent is to deliver hard shots, whch on the street is what they are going to do. Points guys are going to score points, as that's their intent!

So I think what I should have said, What we get out of training depends on the intent we train with?

If this is right, can everyone ignore my previous points and concerntrate on the above statement. Makes me look clever and wise!!!!

Cheers CVV!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#154644 - 06/20/05 07:21 PM Re: Sport Defense [Re: Foundation]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I think that sport orientated MA is very effective if you and your opponent square off and the opponent doesn't has any arms, because you train against resisting opponents.
Of course armed opponents are hard to take out with regular sport moves, since they're based on unarmed opponents, you'll be better off with SD training in that case.




I'd say that "armed opponents" are going to be nearly impossible to "take out", wouldn't you?

Surely you guys aren't thinking that "taking out" guys with knives and guns is a legitimate possibiliy are you? This isn't Remo Williams here you know.

-John

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#154645 - 06/21/05 10:30 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: JKogas]
Foundation Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 343
You know what I mean, English isn't my native language and I lack the subtle differences in meaning.

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#154646 - 06/21/05 10:41 AM Re: Sport Defense [Re: Foundation]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

English isn't my native language and I lack the subtle differences in meaning.




I know native speakers who would not be able to put that sentence together!

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