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#154367 - 06/09/05 09:49 PM From Sankajo to what.....?
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
A favorite control/compliance technique for me is "sankajo". In my hapkdio parlance it is normally referred to simply as a "center lock". There a several simple ways to apply the technique itself, which is why it makes it a favored tech, and will almost always achieve the desired result.

Though it results in immediate pain compliance and you can quickly bring someone to their toes where do you go next?

I have a limited range of "transition" technqiues that I am personally comfortable with (up to this point anyway).

As aikidoka do you often train to complete with a throw from this particular lock?

If a throw is not an option, perhaps due to being in a confined space, what might you do next?



Edited by KiDoHae (06/09/05 09:51 PM)

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#154368 - 06/09/05 10:21 PM Re: From Sankajo to what.....? [Re: KiDoHae]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I think "centerlock" is nikyo...?

Sankyo is a vertical wrist twist (kote hineri).

As soon as you get the person on their toes try throwing either forward or backward using the direction that their body is going in response to the pain. (I don't usually put the pain on the lock, well, not unless they're resisting, but I focus more on taking the person's balance by locking the wrist, elbow, shoulder, center all at once).

Tai-otoshi (body drop) is a nice forward takedown....there are lots more

If a throw is not possible, or you need to control, you can always switch to a side wrist crush (nikyo) or gooseneck (gokyo), wrist pin (yonkyo), or arm entanglement.

Traditionally, the "form" has a controlled takedown (either from the front or rear, using the elbow as a fulcrum) followed by a shoulder pin - a variation of a rear arm entanglement. (Except it's done seated/kneeling rather than standing).

Most beginners will try to turn their back to you (sometimes followed by a back fist), in order to take the pressure off the wrist. [See what happens when you try to be gentle to teach someone how to apply a technique...]

The problem of course, is that you *have to* do something different. My favourite is the Vulcan neck "pinch" (carotid/brachial plexus), back of the knee takedown.

But, as always, it depends on *how* the other person is moving too.

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#154369 - 06/09/05 11:43 PM Re: From Sankajo to what.....? [Re: eyrie]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

I think "centerlock" is nikyo...?

Sankyo is a vertical wrist twist (kote hineri).





eyrie, 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another

Sadly, my ignorance of the proper Japanese terminlogy will often show it's face. A "center lock" (as I was taught it in hapkido) is the elbow up, forearm 90* to the ground and twisting the hand inward toward the body - locking the wrist.

"Sankyo" looks to be the closest to that, although there may be more.

Thanks very much for the reply.

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#154370 - 06/09/05 11:47 PM Re: From Sankajo to what.....? [Re: KiDoHae]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
BTW, what's wrong with throwing someone in confined spaces? You can always "throw" but not let go...

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#154371 - 06/10/05 12:05 AM Re: From Sankajo to what.....? [Re: eyrie]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

BTW, what's wrong with throwing someone in confined spaces? You can always "throw" but not let go...




Nothing really, you could just as easily crank'm forward and ram their head into a wall or something. Works for me.

By "confined" my thought was something larger than a phone booth but where a full throw with a pin, etc., might not seem like the best course of action.

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#154372 - 06/10/05 04:53 AM Re: From Sankajo to what.....? [Re: KiDoHae]
rupert Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Seongnam, South Korea
Spiral it up so uke is more than on his toes then sweep both his legs front front or rear. Be careful to slacken the sankyo and guide the breakfall safely - it is his turn next
_________________________
Rupert Atkinson http://discovering-aikido.com

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#154373 - 06/11/05 09:17 PM Re: From Sankajo to what.....? [Re: rupert]
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
You can always drop them straight down towards your feet, like you are swing a sword shomenuchi, and then lay them out while turning tenkan. It doesn't take up much space at all, but make sure to keep pressure on the sankyo all the way through the technique. If you look at the twist of the arm in sankyo, it is exactly the opposite twist as shihonage. So its pretty easy to reverse it and drop them with shihonage. Works great in the dojo, but it takes a bit of time so as for street-wise I really can't say. But it's a fun 'n flashy finish to the technique.

Joe

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#154374 - 06/14/05 09:54 PM Re: From Sankajo to what.....? [Re: Joe Jutsu]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Thanks to all of you for the replies. I'll give some of those I have'nt tried/trained before a shot!

Thanks again.

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#154375 - 06/15/05 08:31 PM Sankyo and the forward roll [Re: KiDoHae]
mateo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Toronto
I most commonly resolve this technique by going to a crosshand knifehand armbar done facing one's opponent, not in the same direction as is most common. This was one of the approaches which I learned in Hapkido.

In Daito-ryu I learned to resolve the technique by putting on a gooseneck behind his same side hip and taking the whole arm on its horizontal plane, straight down to the ground as I lower my own level from my knees. ( not bending over. ) It is important to place the pressure of the arm directly on the back of the hip and go straight down as this stops the ability to step or turn to much the same end as attacking your opponent's closest knee that others have mentioned.

I have a dislike for the typical forward roll that bothaikido-ists and hapkido-ists do out of this technique. It seems that in 20 years of practise I've never truly been "thrown" in that manner but rather been compelled to 'bail' in order to avoid the lock.

I worked out in schools in Daito-ryu in Japan and in Hapkido where for training we prefer not to do the joint lock avoiding breakfalls in most instances. However in demonstrations the 'jump' out of this technique seems to prevail.

Spiralling downward can effect a fall but it is not the forward rolling one we are typically used to seeing being done.

I never thought of doing this technique combined with a tai-otoshi (judo-style, I presume, with judo body position and not just the meaning of 'body drop'?).

Interesting, I'll think about that one.
_________________________
Matthew Rogers www.spiritforging.com

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#154376 - 06/15/05 09:25 PM Re: Sankyo and the forward roll [Re: mateo]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Thanks Mateo,

Like you, I have had no real success with the "forward" roll that is often trained in conjunction with the lock. We tended to just "go" with the throw. I often see people train it this way in both hapkido and aikido, hence the question.

My preference has been to transition in to a gooseneck as your controlling hand is already there and you can guide the attacker's elbow down, into the crux of you own elbow/hip with relative speed and ease. This can be done proficiently with only a little practice really.

The problem with it for me is that I am of average height and I start having real difficulty with guys 5'11' or 6' and up. You know the "gangly" types.

I have become reasonably proficient at also transitioning from that to a rear, knifehand elbow lock, then with my free hand either applying a choke or collar grap. It's a very painful place for them and a powerful position for me. Lots of options from there.

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